The RULING That CANNOT Be Answered!

► Check me out on Twitch: / distantcoder
► Join my Discord Server: / discord
►  You can book coder for a 1-on-1 Coaching Session on Metafy at the following link: metafy.gg/@dis...
------------------------------
Music from Crypt of the NecroDancer soundtrack & Lakey Inspired
(dbsoundworks.b...​​​​​​)
( / lakeyinspired​​​ )
------------------------------
Video Edited By: HeyBudLetsPlay
------------------------------
#YuGiOh #Ruling #TCG

[@SkyFireYZ]

I think that if guardian chimera is played by the enemy it should be negated and if it is played by me it should not be negated

[@MaxLoafin]

A.k.a. protagonist rules

[@malao1476]

N-E-G-A-T-E-D

[@Gvnrae]

Lmao “the enemy” 😂 are your opponents your enemies?

[@hungo7026]

@@Gvnrae no opponent only enemy. The opponent is play with you but the enemy prevent your play

[@justarandomdudeintherabbithole]

not negated its fzzl

[@therranolleo468]

on today's episode of Learning with Coder, I learned that ED monsters has amnesia about their birth info when they're put to sleep by a night story and then woken up again the next turn

[@PerfectImperfection64]

It's like that with certain effect monsters too like Barboros or Fusilier (they regain their original attack when flipped face up if you use their effect to bypass their tribute summon)

[@therranolleo468]

@@PerfectImperfection64 ohhhh if only sleeping for a night could also get rid of birth defects IRL

[@Kawaiisikkusu]

Isn't this anime accurate? Idk i never watch the anime. Monsters there act like they have personality, soul, and of course amnesia i guess

[@movelea]

So glad that yugioh rulings are so convoluted even pro judges can't reach a consensus. How is there not a standard PSCT format for whether an effect checks on activation or resolution?

[@randomprotag9329]

the phrase "ignoring summoning conditions" has still not been replaced. it happens cause problem solving card text has not been completed yet.

[@alexryu2632]

@@randomprotag9329 "Ignoring summoning conditions" isn't that bad once you understand that it's meant to get around restrictions preventing the monster coming BACK from the GY, etc., rather than summoning it from the GY in general. However, as I'm still in agreement that it IS misleading at face-value, for the sake of clarity, they would need to write something like "Ignoring summoning restrictions listed in its text, if it was correctly summoned prior", but it's difficult to make such a long phrase any more concise, I think.

[@randomprotag9329]

@@alexryu2632 ignoring summoning condititions mechanic just suffers from inconistency since unknown locations allow it but known ones dont. it really needs to be replaced by a jibberish key word that has no meaning outside of being a key word so it loses its misleadingness to it.

[@Damini368]

@@alexryu2632 “Cannot be revived by card effects that do not fulfill this cards's conditions”.

[@alexryu2632]

@@Damini368 That sounds about right, maybe cleaning it up a little more and reworking it to be on the card that's"Ignoring its summoning conditions": "(If that monster was summoned from the Extra Deck, or has a mandatory summoning condition listed in its text, it cannot be special summoned from GY, or special summoned while banished, except by effects that also fulfill the listed summoning conditions, if any)" It's a lot wordier, but it clears up the specifics, while also going onto the card that's doing the summoning, which will typically have more space left in its text than the monster being summoned will, usually

[@Hyparbeem526]

The concept of monsters "forgetting" any extra properties provided by exterior effects is really interesting. But it's too bad that it's extremely unintuitive by the way the game is designed...

[@o7_AP]

I don't think monsters "forgetting" properties should be a thing at all tbh. How does it make sense that Dragoon being flipped face down and then flipped back up means you can't use the destruction effect? It's still the same monster that was fusionend summoned with the same normal monsters as material

[@YukiFubuki.]

@@o7_AP i believe its because face down cards is considered hidden, unknown, covert, blank etc basically an empty card outside of whether its a monster or a spell/trap depending on where its face down coughartifactscough and when flipped faced up again after being flipped facedown its considering a whole new entity due to previously being void of anything resembling an identity

[@nostalgibra4726]

@@o7_AP I guess it's because they're flip summoned and not fusion summoned. Similiar to when you monster reborn fusion monsters from graveyard, their "when fusion summoned" effects do not activate. They're special summoned but not fusion summoned in that instance.

[@GodKiller97]

@@o7_AP public knowledge. Once it’s set, there are certain properties of the card that are no longer public knowledge. You have to dismiss object permanence for a second when dealing with this kind of mechanic. The player of course can rationalize it’s the same card and know what was used, but it’s not about the player knowing, it’s about the game having a system of checks and balances. Public knowledge is one measure of checks and balances

[@pinkdelicious655]

I think everyone who says "read the card" should be locked in a room and beaten whole the thugs yell ruling like this

[@rdmages]

Watching a Coder vid feels like a time chamber lmao. It felt like I'd been watching for like 5 minutes and it had only been 2: He gets so much information across in so little time. It's great

[@somerandomweeb4836]

Hmm no, it's normal paced

[@zachi2fox246]

I think its just hes able to keep pacing well with his talking/script (if he uses one during these) and useful editing to cut out lengthy breaths or etc

[@yaminub]

Kevin's too smart for me. I'll stick to watching MBT.

[@sakhmahdiqjr]

Simply have polymerization in the gy and you wont have to worry about your opponent targeting your guardian chimera with book of moon

[@unidentified4122]

Just have the out 5 head

[@olliezoop]

What if they make UCT tho

[@jamesbuccino376]

I was thinking the same thing, but I feel like there are also decks that would play Dimension Shifter at a big event and force the poly to get banished that turn or something lol

[@LATownsRS]

@@olliezoop then we are back at the same discussion

[@sakhmahdiqjr]

@@olliezoop no one in their right mind is playing dinos atm so no need to worry

[@randomprotag9329]

i really feel for yugioh judges when there is not an tcg ruling data base or preemptive rulings

[@djbaconbitzinc]

Same, I think we need a proper tcg ruling database to sort things out. Like one time my opponent tried to attack my Sacred Pheonix of Nephthys with Galaxy-Eyes Photon Dragon and I activated Book of Moon on attack declaration and he started rule sharking me stating that Galaxy-Eyes still activates. The issue was eventually resolved and the duel continued.

[@PokemonTrainerChris303]

@@djbaconbitzinc lol galaxy eyes would be flipped and the atk would stop. Wtf lol

[@caindossantossantos2545]

Or just simulate the play with edo ?

[@djbaconbitzinc]

@@PokemonTrainerChris303 Ikr, I may not be the smartest but I do know how some of the cards work. This is also one of the main reasons I quit the competitive scene.

[@Lewt_2B]

yep thats how we got stupid and incorrect rulings like "tragoedia counts as 0 ATK in hand for viruses" in the past

[@irtehmrepic]

The Frightfur Wolf example actually translates perfectly, I believe. It would make sense to check on resolution because Guardian Chimera has multiple effects furing that check, and so forgetting the number of materials means that it has to resolve without effect, since it can't remember if it had any materials, so it can't locate them. That's just my interpretation, though.

[@League____]

A continuous effect perfectly translates into a activated effect? That's new to me.

[@manuelmohrmann879]

@@League____ the type of effect doesn’t matter in this case. Wolf checks continuously and Chimera checks as either resolution or activation. If it checks at resolution (which is more likely since nothing indicates otherwise) and the number of materials is forgotten then it can’t draw nor destroy since it does so equal to the number of monsters used from specific locations. If a card doesn’t remember the amount then it also doesn’t remember the amount from a specific location.

[@firatd.monkey7330]

@@manuelmohrmann879 It checks the material on activation because you cannot activate it's effect if, for example, you used 2 monsters from the field and your opponent controls only 1 or even no card.

[@timaeus22222]

@@manuelmohrmann879 It forgets the number of materials when flipped face-down, but it is not known whether it forgets where they were used from. However, it is enough information to give the ruling that it doesn't destroy nor draw, I feel, because that is a key piece of info needed for how many cards to destroy or draw.

[@cactisanderman]

@@firatd.monkey7330 did you just say that an effect that didn't even activate checks on the activation which didn't even happen?

[@TheExFloridaMan]

Considering the effect activated while the monster was face up it should resolve. Its not possible for the number/orientation of the materials to change so at activation it is known what the numbers are, so it should resolve.

[@jorgvdk]

agreed

[@kevinmorad2563]

But couldn't Red-eyes dragoon negate book of moon with it's effect?

[@jorgvdk]

@@kevinmorad2563 dragoon cannot be targeted in the first place

[@Merdra]

But isn't the core diffrence between Frightfur wolf and the other examples that FW is Continous whilst the other cards are trigger effects. With the infernoid fusion we can see that it checks at the activation what was used for fusion summon. So shouldnt we also apply this to our ruling issue? We would need a presedence where a card checks it's materials properties and is activated.

[@firatd.monkey7330]

I fully agree with you. Frightfur Wolf's effect isn't as comparable to Guardian Chimera's effect as Clock Dragon and Tierra.

[@MatijaReby]

My take on the Infernoid at least is that since its a "multi-select" effect, the whole effect itself has to be determined before activation which is why it works. I totally agree on the Wolf example though, it is a continuous effect that should check whenever the state updates.

[@RAMPettersen]

You can see it's determined with the semi-colon (;) "in the cost side" while Chimera has it on the "effect side". I'd be inclined to think it checks on resolution, but i'm trying to remember other cards that check their materials and stuff on an activated effect.

[@qedsoku849]

All the cards I know of that say the condition in the effect part of the text check that condition when they resolve, look at Sky Striker spells for instance.

[@alejandrom.]

Thank you, that's exactly what I was thinking when Coder compared both cards, Frightfur wolf doesn't have a time of activation, it's a continuous property.

[@donellebullock7404]

Simple. If flipped face-down effect is chained to the effect, it resolves, and doesn't if chained to the summon itself. As at the time of activation, which monster only care about, the card was face-up. It's no different than sending some monsters to the GY to activate their effects only to banish them as cost on a quick effect, or the effect itself.

[@dudeguy8686]

It's interesting and confusing, the differences between what's forgotten when a card is flipped facedown, versus when it leaves the field. I suppose it helps balance keeping the monster on the field over simply removing it, but it's definitely not intuitive. Thanks for the deep dive

[@javianmorel1268]

Looks to me like the effect is triggered after the summoning condition is met, which means that the monster has been successfully summoned. The effect of Chimera is also an optional effect (you can), therefore book of moon would interrupt the sequence of the effect because the card is no longer face-up to resolve its effect (can't do A therefore can't do B). Also this interaction between book of moon and chimera only works if chimera WAS NOT fusion summoned with polymerization OR polymerization is not in the graveyard. The condition/ lingering effect of Chimera would protect it from being targeted by Book of Moon. So, for ruling sake I would say that the player controlling Chimera would not be able to draw ONLY if there is no polymerization in the GY.

[@YohananYGO]

I think it shouldn't stop chimera , it is still the effect of the card that *was* face up .

[@jasonjellie9342]

But if it’s flipped Down then the card would miss its timing no?? I’m going off the assumption of unless u have called that ur playing chimeras effect before moon is used u can use it’s effect but if u haven’t said ur using the effect of chimera(using moon as yet example) then moon prevents chimeras effect coz moon would in essence be CL1. I think I’m right?

[@MACHEW_WingDestiny]

I agree. I think that fusion effects that forgotten are the ones who are 'activated effects by players' or acted upon the player like 'attacking'. Since it activated upon fusion summon, the effect should check upon(or right after) the fusion summon not resolution of the effect

[@thatguywiththehat6957]

@@jasonjellie9342 guardian chimera is an on summon trigger effect. It will never be a higher chain link than book of moon

[@PJShark14]

@@jasonjellie9342 uhhh no Chimera triggers on summon… there is no window of time to activate book of moon before the player decides whether to use chimera’s effect or not

[@cdgames69]

@@jasonjellie9342 That is not what the situation is in the slightest. You are completely correct about what you're saying, but it's not really related to the topic in the video Chimera's effect is a trigger effect that happens on summon. Because of that, it needs to happen the first instance that it can, and it can only chain itself to other trigger effects. If you say that you're not activating Chimera, then you physically cannot activate Chimera because the window to activate it will have been long gone, regardless of whatever cards your opponent has. I think this is the kind of situation your comment is referring to The situation proposed is: Chimera is CL1 Book of Moon is CL2 Book resolves, flipping Chimera How does Chimera resolve? Does it still draw cards and pop cards, or does it just do nothing?

[@sparkysummons4454]

When cards check a condition for an effect is something that has always been confusing. I'm sure there are other small interactions that happen all the time. It would be cool to get a more in depth video about some of these rulings. Most of us have read the rulebook, but the rulebook we've read was probably the one that comes in a structure deck. I'm kinda curious to see where you go to see all these way more advanced mechanics. It'd be useful for us competitive players too, instead of just hearing about rulings or encountering them in playtesting. If you can delve into the game mechanics, you can start to make more informed and solid game plans.

[@CNEproductionsMS]

I'd think the effect would still go off. In the frightful example the card forgets its material because when it's flipped face up its been flip summoned not fusion summoned. In the chimera case it would have to somehow be flip summoned after book of moon resolves in the chain to forget its materials, which you know if someone can actually pull that off well done. It's the flip summoning that makes it forget so unless it is flip summoned after being flipped face down the effect still happens.

[@DarthNash6]

Definitely thought this was gonna be about the SLC Regionals Head Judge’s bad ruling about TTT lmao

[@DerMotze]

Same. Would love to hear what Coder has to say to that ruling. Since there seems to be quite a debate there aswell.

[@amethonys2798]

What ruling was that?

[@YohananYGO]

@@amethonys2798 if TTT takes control of chimera that was summoned in the chain TTT is , which player gets to use the effect of chimera ?

[@DistantCoder]

@darthNash6 do you have a post talking about this? some sort of confirmation this happened?

[@jamescunningham.8294]

@@alexYu-gi-oh the player who summoned it gets to use the effect.

[@BlitzkriegOmega]

As people have mentioned, the simulator seems to insinuate that the effect will still go off, but I will wait for a judge’s/Konami’s ruling on this, but this is actually a super fascinating ruling’s discussion nonetheless.

[@alexYu-gi-oh]

The nore fascinating thing is the fact that you think konami will give an official ruling about this, Konami wont do it and judges will just -as usual- give rulings based on individual judgment.

[@FishFosh]

@@alexYu-gi-oh There's no official ruling yet because guardian chimera is a tcg exclusive card. When it gets an ocg release it should also get an official rulings database entry

[@Jaice00]

@@FishFosh guardian chimera was released in the ocg first. Where does this misconception come from

[@francisbartoszewski2284]

I believe it should resolve and that the card checks at activation, this is because if there isn't enough cards on your oponents field, it can't activate.

[@Dannysapphire]

Was very unsure til you the Frightfur example was brought up. Now I heavily lean towards Chimera forgetting. Very good straight to the point video.

[@Keirandal_Chikage]

Definitely would rule it as that yes while the chimera summoned forgets its properties, the chimera that activated its effect (because monsters once flipped facedown are seperate monsters being private knowledge now) did have its fusion material

[@jamescunningham.8294]

Monsters that are placed face down are not considered different monsters. We know this because a lot of cards that reference "THIS" card will still resolve with effect if that particular card is one that is on the field and went face down. It's only when a card changes locations that it becomes a new card and going face down is not changing a location.

[@Keirandal_Chikage]

@@jamescunningham.8294 it is still considered "This card" but it is a seperate monster. For example, things that specify destroying that target s/t do not destroy if said s/t is flipped. It is considered another monster, not another card

[@Keirandal_Chikage]

As well it is no longer considered guardian chimera once it has been flipped face-down, as it is face-down

[@ipgxelite6865]

@@Keirandal_Chikage I am pretty sure that is wrong since even if you active a spell/trap to cosmic it still banishes that spell/trap even if activated in response since nothing goes to the gy until the chain has fully resolved

[@Keirandal_Chikage]

@@ipgxelite6865 cosmic has different wording then the text I am referring to. "Banish it" refers to the targeted s/t card. "Destroy that target" refers to the specified facedown target

[@fearjordison1]

My guess is it checks on activation, because to even activate it you need to check the legal targets, so I think I would resolve

[@hirukashiro5995]

Agree. We can't even activate Chimera if the number of cards on opponent's field is less than the number of materials used from field. It means that Chimera checks the materials on activation. If it checks on resolution, then we should be able to activate Chimera, even if opponent's control less cards than fusion materials on field, but this is clearly not the case.

[@CANWEGETMUCHHIGHERRRR]

Problem is a lot of cards check on resolution

[@qedsoku849]

@@hirukashiro5995 even if guardian chimera checked it on resolution (which I’m inclined to believe it does), you still wouldn’t be able to activate it if the opponent didn’t have enough cards on field. Look at something like shark cannon, which checks for 3 spells in grave on resolution not being able to be played while imperial iron wall is on the field, unless 3 spells were in grave when it was activated. You have to be able to resolve the effect in the state the game was in when you activated it, regardless of when it checks.

[@GodKiller97]

The only thing the activation checks for is fusion method, not material. The fusion material is an assumption, but say there is eventually a card printed that fusion summons ignoring summon condition (similar in the way to instant fusion, as in not using materials). What materials would Chimera be checking for even if he were fusion summoned by a spell effect?

[@user-ns4kj6ln9j]

I play in the OCG format and it was my first time to get to know how the OCG database is seen by TCG judges. Thanks always for great videos:)

[@deproissant]

Surely the official databases don't cover every single possible interaction the game can offer, so has there ever been a circumstance where two judges from two different tournaments give out a contradictory ruling?

[@memegod2872]

Since the optional trigger effect activated upon summon, its fusion materials are immediately known. That's why Tierra resolves correctly (or rather as much as possible) which also included book of moon for its ruling along with compulsory. A number of other trigger effect cards act in the same way, similar to all the newer monarchs that gain additional effects based on the attributes of the monsters tributed. Monsters that don't have trigger effects upon certain conditions being met like dragoons or frightfur wolf will lose their abilities since, once they're book'd, will only retain that they were special summoned and all other info is "lost."

[@LATownsRS]

Makes sense that it would forget its effect considering you could have used 2 from field and 1 from hand or vise versa. Once its faced back up it wont remember how it was summoned, so its effect cant go off. I’m assuming if it was compulsed then the effect would still go off based on your previous example plus it says “if its fusion summoned” since it was successfully summoned but then got bounced back

[@MansMan42069]

Who decided that cards "forget"?

[@XYGamingRemedyG]

Also it says "if" not "when"

[@LATownsRS]

@@MansMan42069 i don’t know I’m still learning to play yugioh myself. I’ve been working my way from the basic ubiquitous interactions and working my way to the more nuanced interactions because it can get confusing and off-putting. The idea of a faced down card forgetting makes sense though since that happens with faced down banished cards. Faced down on the field you can face it up but banished cards are incredibly hard to interact with and i’m pretty sure they’re impossible to recover in a duel.

[@tam8498]

@@MansMan42069 "forgetting" is a concept taken from the OCG database.

[@MansMan42069]

@@tam8498 even then, someone had to have started deciding that that was a thing in first place too, right?

[@monkkey2340]

I read it as game state. Since its chained to Chim, and its chainlink2. Since it resolves, flips chi down, then goes to chain link 1. Since face down cards forget everything used in the fusion, the ":" in the text would activate, then since it forgets the monsters used, that would stop the effect.

[@de4dline207]

thanks to this i have a group of 6 judges aruguing about whos right

[@GTECTIVE85]

The way I believe you van answer this is. First book of moon targets a face up monster on the field and flips it face down. 2nd GuardianC check for where material was used from on summon. Thus if its contact fusion ed or spell card activated for the fusion u first have to wait for the card to be fully summoned.. In that aspect. The lateral are checked upon fusion mechanics. Depending on how the fusion was started will verify if u can book of moon it. If polymerization was used then u can not book of moon it.

[@Zephyrt3mp3st]

I love the emphasis on "Cause I did my research" subtext "so f off card Stan's" lol

[@TheTikeySauce]

I feel like you can use other types of Extra Deck monsters that provide similar effect context. For example, Ravenous Crocodragon Archethys also activates on Synchro Summon and counts the amount of materials used based off of a property of the materials as part of the effect. In Master Duel, if Book of Moon is chained to Ravenous' on Summon effect and it is flipped face down, its effect still resolves as normal.

[@theunknownshadowish]

Ravenous still takes effect because all it cares about is whether it is synchro summoned. Book of moon does not change the inherent summon mechanism that the card is being summoned by, but only makes the card forgets its materials

[@Sioux-periorGaming]

I absolutely hate it when people flip my Frightfur Sabretooth facedown. I typally summon it with 3 material so it becomes indestructible but I've had that happen where some douche would flip it facedown and I'm just stuck with a level eight beatstick.

[@Sioux-periorGaming]

@C.O.V.I.D. Certificate of Vaccination ID Shut up it ain't that serious

[@ricardosalas4523]

Witch is wurst the fact that people don't know how summoning conditions or effect resolution work, or the fact that judges are willfully intertaining these people and their delusion.

[@davidjaramillo1574]

The effect goes off. “ While "Polymerization" is in your GY, your opponent cannot target this card with card effects “. Book of moon targets.

[@turbosonic7219]

Floodgate Trap Hole would be a better example since it doesn't target

[@ThatGuyUnderYourSofa]

i think it goes off cause the fightful wolf battle effect is more like a continuous effect rather then the activation effect chimera gets when fusion summoned.

[@MyArturo1997]

It says IF not WHEN this card summoned by a spell card or an effect. That's the "activation cost" to draw/destroy; the effect should activate when it resolves in the chain. Since book of moon flips chimera, it should forget it was summoned by spell or effect and not do the effect

[@brandonmullins8551]

guardian chimera resolves with effect because its effect can only be actived if the number of cards that it has to pop are on the fleild book wont stop summon triggers unless it say it has to be faceup to resolve

[@m0002856]

Honestly not a fan of the ruling where certain properties of cards are “forgotten” when they are flipped face down. I understand why it needs to exist, but it doesnt change the fact that I’m not a fan. Ideally in my mind the relevant information pertaining to an extra deck monster would not be “forgotten” unless it physically leaves the field for any reason. Dragoon should be able to retain the knowledge that it was fusion summoned with normal monsters if flipped face down, and the Frightfur card should remember how many times it can attack. That’s the way I wish the rulings went for these type of things. But oh well. I guess it was decided this way because a card that is face down technically could be any card and is unknown info.

[@IIOver9000]

agree, feels wrong but the more I think about it, if it is face down you technically flip summon it next turn so its a whole new summon mechanic, idk man YGO rulings are so deep and complicated its hard to be on board with every detail, the ancient egyptians just wanted a simple childrens card game for power lol

[@jamesbuccino376]

IMO they should remember the materials while face down but if they're flip summoned they should no longer be tied to how they were fusion summoned. The game treats flip summons as its own type of summon and Flip summoning counts towards things like Summon Limit's restrictions on summons for the turn. If the game treats Flip summons like it's own type of summon then to me it makes sense a fusion summoned monster flipped face down then Flip Summoned Specifically would mean to me it was now summoned in a different manner than fusion summon, but just getting flipped face down and it's now not a fusion summoned monster feels wrong even if that's how it's ruled lol

[@mattr791]

Dragoon 1 made with x material Dragoon 2 made with y material Both set by book of eclipse and then shuffled by shifting shadows There is no way for your opponent to know or ever confirm which was made with what materials... that's a problem and its far easier to just say "face down cards are unknown deal with it"

[@RedyetiE.T.]

@@mattr791 what the fuck is shifting sands I looked it up and could only find bottomless shifting sand and that doesn’t shuffle.

[@husseinmoussa2947]

@@IIOver9000 but if you flip summon a normal summoned monster you can amstill summon almiraj with it because now it‘s treated as a normal summoned AND flip summoned card. Yugioh is confusing

[@darkstalkerknight63]

After reading Guardian Chimera and listening to this, it sounds like it checks before the start and at the start because it has to check for 2 things, 1 how many cards was use from the hand and is there enough cards to draw equal to that number. 2 did you draw cards. If yes then destroy It checks the number of cards used before activation for the first part and on draw for the second part but because of the "and if you do" It checks of you draw cards So even if it was flipped face down, the effect would go off because it checked per-activation for the number of cards used and from where to be able to activate in the first place But there are 2 problems, both cards target clauses 1 Book of Moon needs a monster to target but the monster isn't on the field on the activation of Polymerization but at the Resolution of Polymerization So you can't chain Book of Moon to Polymerization until a monster is on the field that can be changed to face-down defenses position until the end of Polymerization 2 Guardian Chimera can't be target while Polymerization is in the GY but Polymerization isn't in the GY yet So even you can chain/activate Book of Moon to Polymerization before it is in the GY as in it is going to the GY the effect will not happen because at that point Polymerization is in the GY So there is a 1 phase window where Book of Moon can be activated but it can't result because at that phase Polymerization is in the GY

[@FedeGeko34]

guardian chimera can also be summoned with branded in red

[@darkstalkerknight63]

@@FedeGeko34 is that Polymerization. If no then Guardian Chimera doesn't get it last effort

[@darkstalkerknight63]

@@FedeGeko34 is polymerization in the Gy already. if no, Guardian Chimera effect doesn't happen. Also notice it says while "polymerization" is in the GY. This means if it is removed from the Gy, it lose its effect

[@taylernoise6942]

This sounds like it will be a case of resolution not activation. Even though the chimera's materials were known during activation, the effect only resolves once it is on the field. This to me seems like a case where the best thing to do is rule it on resolution. Therefore, the book would be able to counter the chimera. However, this is so convoluted, it is probably going to come down to a hard choice.

[@Dragon_Ryder]

My guess is, since being Fusion Summoned is part of the activation text before the colon, it checks all the information regarding its Fusion Summon upon activation. Also, is a card Set facedown by effect and subsequently Flip Summoned considered a different monster from the one it was before it was flipped facedown? If so, I’d imagine it forgets all its previous information and becomes an entirely new monster that was Flip Summoned on the field with no material. But maybe that’s not how it works; I have no idea.

[@timaeus22222]

This feels like you're discussing a paradox. :) I think it does resolve without effect, because it had to check the number of materials used *somewhere*, and it had to check where they were used from. However, since it would forget the number of materials used based on Frightfur Wolf, that is enough to rule that it will not destroy nor draw cards because it asks to destroy or draw "equal" to the number of materials. You really can't be equal to an undefined quantity, so although we do not know whether it forgets where the materials were used from, for the sake of presenting the ruling, it is not required (but would be nice to know).

[@RiderOmega]

I think another thing that matters is that if it does check on rez, it may well remember where the materials are from, but if it still forgets how many then it probably can't pop or draw anyways.

[@outdoorfr3ak]

You have to think about it like this. The monsters used as fusion materials aren't there anymore upon creation of Chimera, so on summon that Info would be known. Chimera should absolutely resolve

[@OTSCasper]

i think Chimera would still resolve since once it hits the field the effect triggers and its not a continuous effect like frightfur wolf.

[@jrtg5758]

Yeah but once it flips down it resolves w out the effect. It for sure 100% resolves. But since it is face down it'll resolve w no effect because it forgot its fusion summoning materials/condition. Which need to be met to resolve with effect.

[@GeneralNickles]

Booking ravenous crocodragon makes it's summon effect not resolve properly, so I have to assume chimera is the same way.

[@annoyerboka]

If cyber jar flip face up, then chain with book of moon, cyber jar effect still active?

[@GeneralNickles]

@@annoyerboka yes. There's nothing for cyber jar to remember. It's effect just activates. It doesn't have any conditions.

[@jrtg5758]

@@annoyerboka yes cyber jar effect does resolve. The conditions were met therefore effect is applied

[@AndyBrixton999]

Fusion monster after being flipped face-up again: How the fuck did I get here

[@neroframe9194]

Chimera still resolves because the activation conditions still apply, besides being a trigger effect, in some cases Guardian Chimera can’t resolve bcs it can’t uses the effect due the conditions of you’re opponents field, if u Fusion summon guardian chimera with 2 monsters on the filed and you’re opponent only have a single card on the board it’s impossible for Guardian Chimera to activate because the Destroys cads/draw cards it’s a single effect himself

[@ayham613]

for anyone still wondering it resolves with effect if it's flipped FD

[@Levinswords]

Great video, interesting, concise, and explained well, keep it up brother !

[@darktyphoon2033]

Guardian Chimera reads the check after the effects that activate on resolution, but Frightfur Wolf can still attack at least once after being flipped down which means you could argue that it has one guaranteed draw and one guaranteed destruction, but you could also argue that it has no named materials so the effect isn't applied. all in all i think the effect should be negated with book of moon Guardian Chimera is too good of a super poly target 'discard 3 remove 4 draw 1' which make it +2 overall.

[@darktyphoon2033]

never mind i didn't read only works with your monsters not a super poly target

[@AceHobby1]

An interaction that isn't quite the same since it's not related to fusion material, but feels similar to me, is Des frog. if they tribute summon Des frog and activate it's effect with 2 T.A.D.P.O.L.E.(s) in GY ("When this card is Tribute Summoned, you can Special Summon "Des Frog"(s) from your hand or Deck up to the number of "T.A.D.P.O.L.E."(s) in your Graveyard. "), and I chain Fiend comedian ("Toss a coin and call it. If you call it right, all of your opponent's cards in the Graveyard are removed from play immediately."), does Des frog check the graveyard on Activation (summoning 2 Des frogs) or on Resolution (summoning 0 since their GY is empty)?

[@richardtung6379]

Hey @distantcoder , the ruling for this in the OCG is that chimera resolves as the moment the effect is activated the materials are already determined so book of moon doesn’t affect chimera at all

[@lifequality]

I don’t play in the OCG, but i agree with you. I also think AC checks materials on activation and the effect resolving doesn’t change based on the card’s position.

[@JB-su6cu]

Are we all in agreement that the fact that a monster leaving the field is forgetting different things to a monster being flipped face down is bad (meaning needlessly complex and unintuitive) precedent in the first place?

[@khepridixon2754]

Okay, so if I was a judge I actually know how I would rule this. First off, yes, where the materials were sent from is forgotten upon being BoM'd. This is an extension of the *quantity* of materials used being forgotten, because it would be 0 materials used from the hand. (For anyone confused about the above interaction, I'd say think of the set from BoM as a new summon) Additionally, for part 2 of the ruling, I can only see one way to rule this. The effect is in response to the fusion summon, and therefore the focus is intended to be on the fusion summon. Because it explicitly states *"Equal to the number of cards used as material from the hand"* AFTER the colon, this effect is applied upon resolution, only after all information is forgotten. Therefore BoM would blank the effect entirely, as you would draw 0 cards for effect. EDIT: it's a colon on the card text, not a semicolon

[@khepridixon2754]

I'm curious what other people think of my take on this ruling

[@FishFosh]

There is no semicolon in the textbox of guardian chimera.

[@khepridixon2754]

@@FishFosh my bad, it was a colon not a semicolon. Gonna edit the previous post for clarification

[@arrowstrike1174]

Guardian Chimera says that if Polymerization is in the graveyard, your opponent cannot target it with card effects. Book of moon targets, so the question I'm assuming is being asked as if Poly isn't in the grave. Chimera's effect (I'm assuming) activates when the current chain resolves that summoned it. Now that I've got the scenario down, and I've read the effect, is it possible Chimera checks on activation AND resolution? It states if it's fusion summoned by a spell card or effect you can draw cards equal to the number of materials from the hand, so it sounds like that would check on activation. But the effect goes on to say if you draw, destroy cards equal to the number of materials used from the field, and that sounds like it checks as it resolves. To further explain, Chimera checks if it was summoned by a spell card or effect on activation, then after confirming that it immediately checks the number of materials were used from the hand. As the effect resolves, it checks if you drew any cards, and if you did, it then checks how many materials were from the field and destroys cards on your opponents field. Is something like what I've described a possibility?

[@crusaddy982]

Coder got them bags researching this all night

[@__-be1gk]

Sure am glad I could read the cards to figure all this out

[@eu4um]

Just in case anyone was wondering: at YCS Hartford this weekend, during a QnA on Friday the judges ruled that the effect still works even after being Booked.

[@Skasaha_]

The fact that Konami doesn't have an English database and that some game rules are not published in the rulebook at all is an absolute joke. Reminder that it took about a year before the April 2020 rules revision was officially adopted into the TCG despite many events happening in the meantime, and it still hasn't been added to the rulebook.

[@vanesslifeygo]

nice 8-bit polymerization art

[@ch4parr025]

Use book on chimera when it's released in master duel lol

[@Dhaydon75]

Master Duel uses OCG rulings so it might not really translate to the TCG.

[@MaxLoafin]

@@Dhaydon75 This ruling should translate fine though. The main difference between tcg and ocg is s.e.g.o.c. (simultaneous effects going on chain), which has to do with cards in unknown locations (such as the hand) being chained to cards in known locations, like the field/graveyard. It's why in the tcg, kagemucha knight can chain block tour guide, but in the ocg, it can't.

[@zachi2fox246]

This is one thing i like about mtg. They update interactions quite regularly. Not that im saying there isnt jank rulings/interactions that cause headaches, but it feels like konami doesnt really have an "oracle ruling" for the tcg

[@elemomnialpha]

Imo the ruling on Wolf should mean that Guardian shouldn't activate because it forgets how many monsters were used like Wolf so location doesn't really matter because it wouldn't remember the number used from either location

[@borisheidenreich1830]

Question about a Lair of Darkness VS Despia situation. Player A controls Mirrorjade, Aluber and Branded teather. Player B controls Lair of Darkness and activates "Share the Pain". 1) Player B tributes Mirrorjade as cost thanks to LoD, then tributes Aluber, can Mirrorjade activate his field wipe effect here? 2) Player B tributes Aluber as cost thanks to LoD, then tributes Mirrorjade, can Mirrorjade activate his field wipe effect here? 3) In either situation, can Branded teather use its reborn effect? Given a non fusion fairy leaves the field

[@samw9906]

with how PSTC functions i can see it checking at resolution with how the effect in question is formatted since the trigger is being fusion summoned by a spell or effect and the check is not apart of the trigger effect but the resolving effect.

[@abyssyahoo151]

I dont see this problem coming up very much because Polymerization is almost always in GY so Book of Moon wouldnt be able to target it anyways

[@combollama2543]

Surely if the number of fusion materials is forgotten then the location from which they were used becomes irrelevant? Guardian chimera pops up to the number from field and draws up to the number from hand so if it doesn’t know the number it can’t resolve anyway? Seems pretty clear based on that precedent alone that it shouldn’t resolve because it doesn’t remember all of the needed information

[@hirukashiro5995]

It is indeed if Chimera checks on resolution. The problem here is that you can't even activate Chimera if opponent's control less cards than the number of fusion materials from field (a confirmed ruling). This indicates that Chimera checks on activation, not resolution. Because otherwise, we should be able to activate Chimera even if opponent's control less cards. If Chimera checks on activation, then BoM is irrelevant, it will still resolve normally.

[@steakfries8037]

@@hirukashiro5995 Fascinating. I just checked the card text, and indeed it says to "destroy cards... equal to the number." It does not say it destroys cards "up to" the number. Guardian Chimera does not give an option.

[@legendsoflaughter3313]

For this, it makes me think back to monarchs, how if a tribute summoned monster is flipped face down, it is still considered tribute summon until flipped up, therefore you can tribute it to summon a bigger monarch. If it hasn't been flipped up, wouldn't the conditions and method of its summon remain the same?

[@Frozen_frog]

It does remember it was fusion summoned, just doesnt remember whataterials were used

[@legendsoflaughter3313]

@@Frozen_frog fair enough. It’s a weird rule. It’s like someone went “Oh yeah, this will make the game less confusing” and made that rule

[@wiccanjace2540]

Guys, the answer is so simple. Just ask your head judge each time. They can’t be mad at you and the ruling can never be wrong for that event. The answer is ask the head judge

[@thewanderersrespite8074]

I just came back to YuGiOh a month ago after not having played over a decade This video turned my brain to mush and I love it

[@versilkynscoll5038]

This question only comes if you dont have poly in GY tho. But imo Guardian Chimera checks the condition on activation first. So no matter if it got BoM, it should resolve as the effect is already activated.

[@Yunglex313]

So wait, if there is no TCG ruling database, and they don't want judges using the OCG ruling database, where are TCG judges to look for rulings?

[@deproissant]

They don't? I think they're supposed to judge specific circumstances strictly by interpreting the rule book.

[@Sirfrank_YGO]

The way I see it is in this case when a fusion monster is flipped faced down with book of moon or liked effected like cooder said it will lose its properties because when you flip it face up again you are doing a flip summon so you are summoning the monster again but this time it wasn’t fusion summon so any effects that says it gets when it’s fusion summoned won’t go into effect so when you flip it faced down it’s almost like the monster thinks it’s summon was negated but not really so won’t do the effects when summoned back up or while faced down

[@saviii1057]

I love these kinds of videos as someone who loves yugioh and is still learning these types of videos are huge!! Thank you!!

[@powerfulberry237]

Book of Moon is a terrible example. It targets so Chimera has to have been summoned on the field and has its eff activated already, before getting chained to BoM, so even without precedence the fact that the activation has already happened should mean all the conditions have already been checked

[@Boristien405]

This seems relatively obvious even if the text is unique. Guardian Chimera already legally activated. If it had targeted, it would target a specific amount of monsters upon activation. Guardian Chimera just happens to not target. But I don't think that changes its intended functionality.

[@lucasfigueiredo8145]

Yugioh is insanely complex i would love to see how they program the card effects in games with all the possibilits

[@shadowfox87]

I just noticed that Coder uses the deck editor music from YGO Omega. I do miss the ruling tests on Omega. Would be fun to compare how MD vs Omega rulings work but I already know that there are bugs on MD that were never bugs on Omega. Omega, edopro, and MD all use OCG rulings as per the database precedents. So in those simulators, Guardian Chimera will resolve when book of mooned. Those faq entries in the ocg database are populated when people send emails to the OCG office. That's why it's called faq. However, those emails have to be sent in Japanese. There's even another secret archive of rulings that the Japanese players use that has rulings before it is updated on the database.

[@samdavis6722]

I would say chimera checks the properties on resolution because it doesn't target

[@JoelAguilarCerna]

As far as my understanding of Guardian Chimera reading, the condition applies during the effect and not during the activation.

[@animeandrice9664]

Given the wolf president if chimera checks on resolution it would fizzle

[@randommaster06]

As a judge for a different game, the fact that the rules don't address what happens when cards move between zones nor even have card templating be standardized is ludicrous. TCG judges not supposed to use OCG rulings is even crazier. Of all the things for Konami to take a hands-off approach on, this is one of the worst.

[@dale117]

Hm... I'm reading the effects right now and the way it's worded sounds like if it were hit with book of moon in the same chain as its trigger effect, it would get the draw, but not the destruction.

[@DarthWampa_]

What about Hi-Speedroid Cork Shooter's 2nd effect to reborn the materials used for it's summon? I don't think it targets. I couldn't find any Book of Moon ruling with it though. The card is in Master duel if someone wants to try.

[@thewisefool774]

there is one more factor that demands attention which is something the given examples doesn't have and that is the "must" summon restriction on chimera stating the materials used MUST be 1 from hand and field each, in other words you cant fusion summon chimera if you don't have any monsters on the field. so the game should know that I have used 1 from the field and 1 from hand even if the 3rd one is forgotten where it was from. keep that in mind that you cant cheat this from the extra deck by lets say waking the dragon, and its effect activates when its fusion summoned.

[@mr.smooth465]

Separate question regarding Branded Lost. When Guardian Chimera is summoned, is the opponent able to respond to Chimera’s effect to draw and destroy if Branded Lost is on the field since Branded Lost says “your opponent cannot activate cards or effects when a monster is Fusion Summoned this way” or is Chimera’s effect outside that window?

[@firatd.monkey7330]

If the fusion card that summoned Chimera was CL1 on the previous chain then yes, your opponent cannot respond. If it was CL2 or higher then he can respond.

[@GTECTIVE85]

If polymerization is used for the fusion summon of this card u cannot target this card. So I ask the Hist of the video please explain how the fusion was made. That decides on if it can get booked of moon

[@sanketower]

Since Guardian Chimera doesn't care where do the materials end up after they've been used, it should check on ACTIVATION, not on resolution. The reason, I argue, is that just as Belle can negate Sanguine cuz, when it resolves, it could happen that Sanguine decides to summon an Eldlich from the GY instead of the deck, if the card cared about where the materials end up, it would have to do so in resolution cuz it could happen that those materials go somewhere else in the middle of the chain. Guardian Chimera doesn't have that problem, therefore, it just needs to check on activation.

[@gwyn4534]

Well...book of moon targets and guardian chimera cant be targeted while poly is the grave (they most likely are going to summon it with poly anyway)

[@byronharris22]

The reason I say it checks on activation is because guardian chimera can’t activate if the number of cards used for its fusion from the field is more than the number of cards your opponent controls. What I’m saying is if you fuse 2 monsters on field and 1 in hand and your opponent has 1 card on the field, chimera won’t be able to activate. This is why I think it checks at activation because it needs to check it’s activation requirement/legality to activate.

[@FishFosh]

In order to legally activate at all, you would have to have already confirmed that there were valid materials used for guardian chimera's optional trigger effect. Therefore it probably checks at activation, I would think.

[@Namingway248]

its not really a matter of what you the player knows its a matter of what "the card knows" so to speak. there are many instances in yugioh where both players understand a chain of events that is technically defined but it is technically unknown knowledge in regards to certain effects and interactions.

[@luciliooliveira]

I think also can do it, since is a trigger eff and the way I see the card don't care what happens only need to activate. This situation with book can happen is true, but most of the time players have to consider the ones who gone play this, have polymersation on grave to prevent targets. Specifically, the players who are using this fusion out side of albaz deck. So with this, book is not the best option anyways and you can really prevent a headic.

[@jimik7354]

I'd say unless it negates the summon, Chimera's effects will go through as the materials used should have already been counted on making the summon

[@aaronmoreton]

I would say that how its worded compared by other cards currently when checking for checks on activation. If vs when. The ifs currently check upon activations and when is for resolution. The terra example is a if and checks upon activations.

[@crowcoregames1785]

im not 100% on this but more than likely since it was chain 2 and chains resolve backwards its more likly that guardian will resove without efect since the game forgets things about it, this hapens alot with efects on sumons then someone chains mirrorjade to banish said sumoned monster and gernaly (not always) the monster resolves without efect since it leaves the feild, this is a little difrent but i feel that it basicly checks to see if cimera is on the feild and all its property when the efect resolves and since it is not face up the efect wouldnt resolve in theory. also it 100% checks the meterals since "Must first be Fusion Summoned using only Fusion Materials from your hand and field, with at least 1 monster from each" it requires one from hand and from feild and must be YOUR feild, it dose this when it activates since it says "You can draw cards equal to the number of cards used as material from the hand, and if you do, destroy cards your opponent controls equal to the number of cards used as material from the field." it checks what was used from hand and feild when its sumoned its a on sumon efect, im not shure if it would forget where they are from since its from hand and feild but i think it still wouldnt resolve in all likelyhood due to book being chained to its efect. since it forgets the properys its most likly it wouldn't resolve. thats just my theory.

[@GeneralNickles]

I feel like another applicable card here would be Ravenous Crocodragon Archethys. It draws cards equal to the number of non-tuners used to summon it, and I'm fairly certain booking it would make it not resolve properly.

[@Boristien405]

I'd have to read Croc but I'm pretty sure it will definitely still draw.

[@TheTikeySauce]

In Master Duel, it resolves as normal.

[@deankinsella3579]

If it forgets how many monsters were used for it's summon like frightfur wolf then it wouldn't be able to draw as even if it remembers there were cards used from the hand it doesn't remember how many.

[@alicebunnymera]

Wouldnt the "and if you do" part mean that at the very least it would have forgotten the number of monsters used from the field by the time it gets to the destruction part?

[@RAMPettersen]

It shouldn't bear any weight on it. "and if you do" means that if you do A, you proceed to do B, and the timing for those is simultaneous (on the matter of losing the timing for optional triggers)

[@Phukenradd]

I’m a bit confused on the case of the material being checked on effect resolution versus effect declaration. It seems to me that the Summoning method is the aspect being applied in declaration, whereas the materials used centering the body and resolution of the primary effect. It is interesting, but it seems to me (from my lack of le big brain) that it would “be having the forgor💀” on the effect unless poly was still around. I’d love to hear a deeper theory-dive on how and why it’s speculated to still have knowledge of the materials through the resolution.

[@DoctorMckay101]

YuGiOh needs a giant rules pdf kinda the one Magic the Gathering has. Everytime I see a video like this, even if I find it very interesting, something inside me dies. "Bring this to your headjudge and they will give you their ruling" *nervous laughter, cold sweat, shivers*

[@Chackothewacko]

Ygomobile plays it out with Chimera still popping and drawing. Obviously unofficial simulators shouldn't be used as a ruling guide