The Training Industry (Lots of people should rebuild their house)

[@juxmatic2288]

“A penis shaped tower for all the bro vets to live in”🤣

[@musicman1eanda]

That knocked me out 😂😂😂

[@ianaquila1858]

Gabe White is a good example of this; most folks haven’t heard of him. Amazing shooter and accomplished instructor. AND he has a good foundation.

[@johnnyfox8142]

I'm signed up for his class in August

[@UrbanDefenseSystems]

The people who know about Ben Stoeger, know about Gabe White, the reality is, the average person just doesn't care that much about being a good shooter. That's a fact that will never change. Just like most people who own cars don't care about learning to be high level drivers.

[@wilekrowan3610]

Gabe White is a great guy, really enjoyed his classes.

[@tbenson5966]

Yep!!!

[@notyou2935]

One thing that most people don't recognize is that being a good shooter doesn't make a person a good instructor or teacher. Knowing how to get people to learn and being able to explain why they should learn is a unique skill set that frankly most good shooters don't have.

[@musicman1eanda]

"The brovets built a penis shaped tower behind the berm for all the brovets and now nobody can shoot there" 😂😂

[@tylerraymond1868]

Thank you for all you do for guys that want to get better at shooting! Your class posts that you periodically drop FOR FREE have helped immensely.

[@scottcreamer6559]

Thank you, just getting started on shooting. Just ordered your book the other day after watching a good number of your videos, understanding and working on not moving gun during trigger press and target focus to manage predictable recoil movement is what I have gleaned to this point and that going slower may not fix what I am doing incorrectly.. so thank you Sir. I noticed that seat belt pattern that you mentioned so that was also helpful information. Thanks again from a random old guy who wants to improve.

[@cb7677]

i listened to P&S religiously for literally years, mostly cuz of Chuck P appreciate you and Matt casting these dudes in a different light, pat mac's institutional inbreeding term comes to mind, to get hella cheesy

[@felixdewinter3484]

By Chuck P do you mean Chuck Pressburg? The guy who the term, “and to think, this brother-in-law almost got pressburged” comes from?

[@cb7677]

@@felixdewinter3484 indeed I do..bro got too faded and was showing off the roland special...it happens

[@felixdewinter3484]

@@cb7677 shooting your brother-in-law in the leg while in a drunken haze is something that just happens? Are you serious?

[@NickNelsonReiners]

I like your humorous, straight forward approach to improving EVERYONES shooting. No BS marketing, chest pounding, meathead, locker room mentality….

[@jasonbradley8341]

I’ve said it over and over. This current gun instructor culture reminds me of the old martial arts culture in the 80’s - 90’s. ( probably before). Kung fu (Bro vets) is superior to Taekwondo (comp shooters). Both are camps are just populated by dudes that have never tried much of anything else. Of course you got the Rex-Kwondo dudes popping up to and really fuck up the scene. The unknowing being able to sift thru the bull shit is basically impossible.

[@dklee2034]

While I do find your social media trolling to be hilarious and entertaining, I find this version to be the best. I got a lot out of listening to you talk about training and concepts.

[@ExecutiveTrainingGroup]

This is why it always weirds me out when instructors do not compete...I am so addicted to trying to get better and that is a great way to measure if you are actually growing. Sure you do not need to but man It humbles you to see no matter how good you think you are you are still getting worked at major matches. Great video.

[@blinggnilb2]

The Brovet comment was epic. 😂

[@CasualShootersPodcast]

Ben - This is not new. I got into the private training business, initially, in 1994. Two years and eight months later, I was out. It's no different now than it was then. Here's the thing: You have skill and accomplishment to support what you do, as does Matt. They do not. You don't need flashy to put food on the table, they do. They have to find a way to draw folks to their classes. It's like fishing with a nice shiny lure. Personally, they would do much better in the long term to adopt and collaborate. It's no different than gun reviewers. I love Canik but I hate when they send new guns to "youtubers" to do a gun review. No, I want it sent to an actual person that knows how to shoot and will put it through the wringer. That will never happen because it's bad for marketing. It is what it is.

[@chrisharris6834]

My man it hasn’t changed yet either. I think it has gotten worse in the tactical world, especially with the advent of Al Gores internet. I know many, low key, former agency instructors that give higher quality gun craft education and are significantly under marketed. This is compared to the high and mighty navy SEal with a book deal and uses their clout to sell classes. These SEals give scraps in comparison. It’s really interesting that I can think of one example each, that teach at the same range. I don’t think this problem is unique to the firearm industry though. The internet has made the world this way. The key is, in my opinion, is finding those who add the value beyond what you pay for. I think Ben is one of those people. John Dudley(archery) is another.

[@CasualShootersPodcast]

@@chrisharris6834 I can't disagree.

[@920WASHBURN]

You just have to find the right youtubers

[@mrfrm1975]

I am not and was not a P&S follower, but now that you mention it, I’ll go take a listen. I definitely want to get better and I seek out training for that goal. I’m of the belief that what someone did in the past has value. It’s everything, but it does have value.

[@oddsparrow8522]

I really like the way you explain the difference of seeking something and always wanna be better vs thinking you are. You are the closest one to reach Brian Enos and J.Micheal Praxtons way of describing the journey being an better shooter.

[@bulletsandbread]

Really enjoyed this post. If you're really interested in improving, you're always looking for new concepts, new applications or takes on things. I'm just an enthusiast and I get turned off when the marketing hype seems over the top.

[@steelercurtain]

Yeah I watched the Live with those two going back and forth. I thought it was a bit tacky, but it was necessary. At the end of the day they are grown men and need ro work the shit out. The training industry is crowded and mostly a shinny turd. Too much fluff. Ppl spend good money and if the want fluff then that's what they get. I personally want to break barriers in my skill set, and it's painful and humbling to do

[@BDKennels]

The part that irritates me is whenever I recommend a class with Stoeger they call him names and refuse because they don't like him. Then they'll take a class from a high speed/low drag guy just because he's hs/ld. For them it's not about what they learn but who they learn it from. They're not better shooters (they might in fact be worse if they incorporate some of the techniques I've seen being taught) but they think they are. Perception is greater than reality.

[@impactaustria]

Just thinking loudly... would be interesting for pro shooters that know what shooting is about to sit down and develop a set of "classifier" or "challenge"/"standard"/... drills, that are really simple in props, but designed to really test the core of relevant pistol (carbine/rifle/...) skills kinda like the xray cqb warmup but for one isolated platform. Make it hitfactor based (or similar, so there is no upper performance limit and guys keep pushing) and then hype it like hell so that people thinking they're good at shooting cant ignore it. Maybe have it as a sidematch on a single bay on a uspsa/pcsl/... type match for super six shootouts or so, and for beforehand registered shooters to test and prove themselves (which someone objective watching and scoring), or/and force people to record that "challange"on a IG live or similar where they can't hide bad performances. Maybe lucas has the reach to promote such a standard test and make it so popular that potential training industry customers become interested in seeing their potential instructors have a record of performing such a standard at a decent level. And even if some instructors don't accept the challange or cheating it, maybe at least it helps shooters to have a reference of where they're personally at and get a better feeling if the techniques from instructor Z actually had a positive impact on their performance, or if rather their collegue that went to instructor X seems to constantly improve...

[@oddsparrow8522]

I would say that it is what his book "Practical shooting training" is about

[@dchil15]

Generally that leads to people trying to cheat the intention of the drill in order to get a good score.

[@impactaustria]

@@dchil15 Sure, if its a single drill that will be very much the case. However, I feel that a more comprehensive test like the CQB warmup will require a lot more raw skills and not just "steel challenge type muscle memory" to perform well, but still is not too time- ammo- and range-setup consuming.

[@impactaustria]

@@oddsparrow8522 Yeah, but I was thinking more about a test type drill set like cqb warmup, maybe ~50 rounds pistol, that test a lot of important core skills combined to give a good representation of a shooters practical shooting ability. The book you're talking about is very good to develop all those required skillsets with drills that isolate specific areas, because thats how effective training works. I thought more about a drill-set that combines those skills to test the shooters skill level (like a stage would, but thats probably too complex for a standard drill and maybe too "competition specific" too for some folks).

[@papabear2965]

I think that's a great idea

[@Curtis_Bro_Shooting]

Jesus. Shots fired! lol.

[@rightwinggunnut1]

Get em ben!

[@tylerk158]

I love how you can drill into a dude for a week straight and just do a live together like nothing happened

[@cb7677]

it's hilarious man, I love it forget Desparate Housewives, we got Ben callin out the whole industry! lol

[@rightwinggunnut1]

Ben can you post a link to the p&s matt was on? Appreciate you brother

[@WishonPGA]

It appears that shooting training is on a similar trajectory as golf was about 30 years ago. When the popularity of golf boomed, so did golf instruction. Marketing golf instruction became an industry and factory-like golf schools and clinics sprung up all over the place. These entities sold golf information without any concern about whether the customer would improve their skills. They were just selling slots in their program. Having taught golf for around 45 years, I've never tried to promote myself other than by word of mouth by having actually helped students improve and enjoy the game more. In watching your clinic videos, I've been impressed with how you emphasize to the attendees that they're not going to realize any immediate improvement at the clinic, but will be given ways to work toward improving with personal practice. I, for one, would be willing to tolerate your 'personality' if I were able to improve my skills. That's what it's about. Improvement is a personal journey and it can't be done by someone else's rigid program. Getting guidance is critical, but following a pre-scripted program is a waste of time, IMHO.

[@tangero3462]

P&S has become exactly what they said they wanted to avoid. A lot of days it feels like a boys’ club of dudes selling their tactical Pampered Chef products to one another and whatnot. Sometimes these are actually good products, but sometimes these relationships get in the way of fixing real problems with them, and the general amount of shillery just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Once someone hits the cadre they have zero scrutiny placed on what they do or say or what products they hawk. Unless you have a fluffed out CV any critique or question gets buried. Of course, there’s a lot of dumb people commenting shit online, but they too often cast genuine curiosity and legitimate issues with the random trolls.

[@chap23305]

@Frogmantactical needs to hear this.

[@AAlphaMike]

I want to get better at shooting, ontario doesn't offer teachers like you. So I buy your books and listen to your stuff.

[@rolotomase1440]

The industry has always been "mostly" about what's cool and who's cool. Some of these guys will spend more time talking than shooting. But the fact is these guys are 90% better than everyone else and actually have plenty to share - they're just not 1% USPSA National Champion level shooters like Ben is. For the few people out there shooting USPSA that want to win section/area matches - take a class with Ben. There are litterally just a few people out there at his level. But if you want to safely shoot a gun, be proficient - therea are a lot of people out there in the "industry" that can get you there.

[@UrbanDefenseSystems]

Since Ben is literally one of the greatest shooters of all time, given all his wins in this sport, no one can really call him out on anything skill related.

[@rolotomase1440]

@@UrbanDefenseSystems Did somebody do that?

[@UrbanDefenseSystems]

@@rolotomase1440 Not that I'm aware of. But that's my point. The usual default for most instructors when disagreeing with each other... is to imply the other one doesn't know what they're talking about.

[@Alphakoncepts]

Since the day I became an instructor, competitors have been working to tear me down and I am nobody special. I work to improve myself and improve my students and build up rather than tear down. I refuse to get involved in any instructor drama. I may not agree with another instructor, and that's fine, but I won't criticize unless it is a safety issue. I have on several occasions privately messaged for clarification and conversation. My father told me, "Never offer unsolicited advice because all you'll do is piss them off." Management 101: Praise in public. Criticize in private.

[@chap23305]

The easiest way I could relate to this... Lot's of fast NFL players. Some ran track. Some didn't. All can run "fast in game". Fast on the field doesn't make you an expert at sprinting. I wouldn't go to an NFL player to learn how to sprint, I'd go to a Olympic level sprinter. It's a fairly simple concept. Idk why the bro vets get so pissed off.

[@johnnyfox8142]

Man I think all of your content on pistol shooting is Golden. I'm brand new to Uspsa and the info that you lay down on vision, doubles and transitions has me way ahead of the game. Ive been to 2 of Jedi's classes when i was brand new to the dot and Scott's classes helped me tremendously. Him and his assistants are 100% trying to make the students better shooters i believe just like you and Matt are. 🇺🇲

[@kdworak4754]

Alright then, how do I grip the gun if the wave isnt it?

[@tomwilson1006]

You mean Glover and GBRS aren’t the end all be all?

[@azcompetitiveshooter]

whats wrong with jeds training foundation? never took his class, but just curious.

[@6Dasher]

Curious as well

[@andymeresse6930]

Not sure what his deal is. Out one side of Stoeger's mouth, he talks about people wanting to get better and that's the important part, but the other side spews negativity to other instructors that provide good training. I've been to Jedi's class, and his techniques had me shooting better on the MRDS than I though possible in just two days. Are there other techniques, obviously. Are there other people with "better/different" ideas, of course. Jedi never once said his way was the only way during the two days. His way worked best for him and he wanted to share it, which happened to work better for me than when I went to Sage Dynamics (who provided good training, it just didn't click for me like Jedi's). Therefore, it just proves that you can't stop taking classes from different people. There will always be something that works or doesn't work for you in everyone's class, despite them trashing other instructors because they aren't them.

[@azcompetitiveshooter]

yah man it seems like ben and matt are taking the role of being gatekeepers as in the only good instructors or training are ones that get their thumbs up or nod of approval and respect. in a way it can be a good thing because i always beleived in instructors or industry heads worth their salt voicing thier opinion and calling out people because it can save people wasting their hard earned money, and ben is by all definitions worth his salt and a proven shooting educator. but damn, there are alot of great instructors and schools that ben and matt deem less than stellar and ive always wanted to take a jedi's class, as many other great proven instructors worth their salt have praised jedi. at the end of the day, all of us who just want to get better have to rely on quality information from quality people and that creates alot of confusion becauase who are we supposed to trust or listen to especially when all oposing forces are all quality people and quality instructors? its hard i tell ya my guy

[@dchil15]

He's teaching a deliberately poor index on a draw in order to cheat your way into getting a dot. He is focused on a score at the end, not the process being understood.

[@chilidem]

​@@dchil15What process is this?

[@vbss261]

100% it's about getting better. Personality? your drive is to make people better, that's a decent personality to me! People who focus on the personality on a micro level are not trying to get better, they are looking for tactical idols that reinforce their opinions and keep them comfortable.

[@NSav10137]

People that are serious about improving will find the right place to be. That’s why I don’t think it’s worth being all aggravated by all the bullshit out there. And some people just want the bullshit. They want their little patch or black belt or to say that they trained with some navy seal. Is that something people should want, probably not. But it’s their life and they can waste their money on any marketing gimmick they want.

[@vigormindset]

Which P&S episode is it that is being referenced in this video? I’ll have to go check it out.

[@felixdewinter3484]

Me too. Very interested.

[@michaellane7991]

Awesome video Ben! Nothing but truth!!!

[@Hoplopfheil]

Is there some way I can pay you 900 dollars a day to watch me do up drills at the 3 yard line?

[@dan96b6]

Trainers in the training business pull out all the stops to promote themselves? Shocker.

[@elianas7066]

People will always hate to hear the truth.

[@sharper9009]

Honestly Ben I just don’t understand why you give a shit what these guys teach 🤷‍♂️. I’m pretty sure your classes will remain full no matter how successful these insta trainers are or become. Your record as an instructor and shooter speaks for itself and people will always want to learn from the best. I clearly must be missing something here

[@John.VanSwearingen]

It’s frustrating to have to “deprogram” inefficient tactical voodoo snake oil training out of students. Wastes time and class resources. It’s easier to teach a novice than it is someone that’s gotten pretty okay by running a technical dead-end to perfection.

[@sharper9009]

@@John.VanSwearingen Yea, I kinda see what you’re saying in that regard and can see how that would be frustrating. You will never get all trainers on the same page though. It’s kinda like getting Golf lessons; one guy tells you one thing and then the next teacher you see has you working on something totally different and probably feels like he’s having to clean the mess up from the last teacher. Nature of teaching/training I guess. I was honestly clueless as to why Ben was so upset but your comment makes sense and helped me understand. Thanks

[@BadKarma1218]

There's a lot of marketing companies that are also selling entertrainment

[@mariosmith8456]

I am definitely a fan of Stoeger but geez why is he having problems with so many other trainers? Is this just like a thing in the training community, everybody tears each other down?

[@JKCullens]

Is it bad that I don't find a SINGLE thing wrong with Ben's "personality" and agree wholeheartedly that P&S is a cesspool circle jerk, any anyone praising terrible weapon handling to promote "sub second" draws, but have 5 second first shot times are part of the problem? Lol

[@2AlphaCrew]

Who is Scott jelinsky?

[@grantorino2009]

Google Modern Samurai Project.

[@2AlphaCrew]

@@grantorino2009 thanks

[@bach1958]

Most great shooters never took a class they found out what works for them and moved on.

[@mitchimuus]

Where can I hear this hour long conversation Ben?

[@donscott6130]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZWWZ3Wjh7CUj8U

[@19840b]

He’s always fresh out of the shower for these videos…..

[@HouTexHemi]

Is there any field of human endeavor that Ben won't try to cause drama over? Next he is gonna take on the food industry over how much salt should be put on fries.

[@joken7449]

you guys care about skills, they're looking for views and likes. i'm fine with both as long as people can tell which is which and know what they're looking for.

[@johngalt234]

Most of these channels end up trying to sell their merch. I appreciate capitalism, but how is an overpriced Ronin belt or Haley Strategic backpack going to make us better at what we do?

[@robc5082]

So frustrating as a competitor and student. All this crap. Who's good? Who isn't? I can't trust any instructor. I can't do it alone. This guy says this is the way. Some other guy says that guy is full of shit. Hundreds of sucker fish shout in agreement to both of them. Read these comments. Read other comments. Makes me sick. Sad. Really sad.

[@student1979oct]

Find people you PERSONALLY know and trust, that have taken courses by various instructors, and ask them what they think. I tend to just take everyone's course that comes remotely close to me and judge for myself. Even shit instructors have one or two gems worth adding to the toolbox.

[@UrbanDefenseSystems]

How hard is it to view their credentials? Ben Stoeger is an accomplished GM who has won Gold multiple times, internationally and in the USA.

[@robc5082]

@@UrbanDefenseSystems ok FanBoy pipe down. How hard is it to understand that credentials and medals don't necessarily equal a quality instructor? I'm passing no judgement on your dear leader, I'm saying it's hard to know who is legit or not. Unfortunately, exhibit A is the melodrama this whole video is predicated upon! SMH.

[@student1979oct]

@@UrbanDefenseSystems Well, just because they have good "credentials" doesn't mean they can teach others. Just because they have a big name doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

[@UrbanDefenseSystems]

@@robc5082 You sounded more unhinged and emotional in your original comment, and your response than I did. So perhaps you need to calm down?

[@sig3579]

Who has time for all this petty BS? Seriously?

[@Azorian36]

Just say you need a better Marketing Manager my guy.

[@Fryheart]

His marketing is putting up classes for free on the internet, so you know exactly what you're getting before using your money

[@Azorian36]

@@WombatIn_A_Box To be honest I'm just joking. I haven't taken a class from him yet but I have one of his books and it's pretty great. I'm not a Stoeger hater at all.

[@swiftaudi]

It lonely sounds like it from hood videos but according to him he’s busy. I haven’t checked but I believe it. He’s got more knowledge to share then One could hope to obtain alone about shooting sports.

[@johnm6736]

Where is the p+s banter in regards to VCQB/pranka/landfair

[@tbenson5966]

All I care about is being a better shooter.

[@goodluck2522]

I have no idea who or what this is about