Top 10 Social Deduction Games

[@RuslanGuna]

1. Deception: Murder in Honk Kong 2. BANG! The Dice Game 3. Shadows over Camelot 4. Battlestar Galactica 5. Patriots and Redcoats 6. Dead of Winter 7. Spyfall DC 8. Hail Hydra 9. Game of Thrones: Oathbreaker 10. Escape from the Aliens in the Outer Space 1. Deception: Murder in Honk Kong 2. Mayday Mayday 3. Don't Mess with Ctulhu Deluxe 4. The Resistance 5. BANG! The Dice Game 6. Leaders of Euphoria 7. Werewords 8. Spyfall 2 9. A Study in Emerald 10. Nosferatu 1. Hail Hydra 2. Ultimate Werewolf 3. Werewords 4. Crossfire 5. Spyfall 6. The Resistance: Avalon 7. Chameleon 8. Deception: Murder in Honk Kong 9. A Fake Artist Goes to New York 10. One Night Revolution

[@-FLIPSID3]

Great session - and LOVE the magical shirt changing Tom!

[@leecorby5662]

Spyfall - the spy is listening in to the good peoples' conversation to figure out where they might be meeting up/doing their secret stuff

[@wroot_lt]

Saboteur is the only social deduction kind of game i have played. This was actually first modern game i owned and played. It started board games thing for me and my friends. So it is a sweet spot for me.

[@stephanehibou1534]

So Funny Tom ! Thank you! Actually thanks to all of you.

[@benjaminspears8488]

I just led a group of 10 year olds in a game of Bang Dice, and they loved it so much, they wanted to play multiple times instead of moving onto video games.

[@apachence]

Deception is great because, no elimination, it's VERY quick, and the best - unlike Resistance where you have to look into someone's eyes and lie your face often...and a lot of times it can be "Your a Spy" - "No, YOU'RE the spy"!. The bad team in resistance just has to offer alternatives that fit the clues - way less stressful or confrontational.

[@hisfantor]

Sam: 10 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/82168/escape-aliens-outer-space 9 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/275530/game-thrones-oathbreaker 8 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/256877/hail-hydra 7 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/221371/dc-spyfall 6 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/150376/dead-winter-crossroads-game 5 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/221661/patriots-redcoats 4 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37111/battlestar-galactica-board-game 3 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/15062/shadows-over-camelot 2 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/143741/bang-dice-game 1 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/156129/deception-murder-hong-kong Zee: 10 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/137290/nosferatu 9 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/178054/study-emerald-second-edition 8 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/193308/spyfall-2 7 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/219215/werewords 6 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/195237/leaders-euphoria-choose-better-oppressor 5 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/143741/bang-dice-game 4 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/41114/resistance 3 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/253786/dont-mess-cthulhu-deluxe 2 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/142924/maydaymayday 1 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/156129/deception-murder-hong-kong Tom: 10 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/176361/one-night-revolution 9 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/135779/fake-artist-goes-new-york 8 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/156129/deception-murder-hong-kong 7 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/227072/chameleon 6 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/128882/resistance-avalon 5 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/166384/spyfall 4 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/230059/crossfire 3 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/245422/werewords-deluxe-edition 2 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/152242/ultimate-werewolf-deluxe-edition 1 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/256877/hail-hydra

[@marydavila9413]

I really like Shadow Hunters. Has more going on then just just figuring out who everyone is.

[@gamera2351]

Zee pretending he got smacked made me laugh so loud. You guys kill me. 😅

[@chadsteven9334]

Pretending? Lol

[@Bodyknock]

Despite its length Battlestar Galactica still seems to be the favorite social deduction game with my main gaming group. We’ve played it at 5, 4, 3 and even the official 2 player variation and had fun at all the counts. (Even solo wasn’t too bad.) Personally my favorite player count is four since that allows for either the Mutineer or Cylon Leader to be used both of which are fun roles to play. 🙂 (Six players also uses those roles but six is a bit too long I think.)

[@jasonact]

I’m actually very surprised that none of them have played Secret Hitler. Aside from being a great social deduction game, it’s incredibly educational. All too often, people wonder, “How could X get so many supporters and get elected?” This game shows how easy it is for a charismatic person who knows how to say the right things can gain support among an unsuspecting set of the population. It also shows how the supposed “good guys” can be tempted to use dirty tactics, and often sacrificing their principles, in order to win. I think if any of them gave it an honest chance, they would be very surprised.

[@roseability86]

Glad ONUW got a mention even if it didn't make your lists. The elimination aspect of Ultimate Werewolf really puts me off. Love ONUW because everyone lasts the whole game and games are quick/customisable lengths too.

[@CoffeeClubPlaylist]

One big solution to Werewolf that we do, is give everyone two lives. Werewolf can attack, and take a life, including attacking themselves. This opens it up massively, rather than eliminate someone immediately. Always been a much better way of playing

[@edwardbrost331]

Zee hit the nail on the head with the problems with ultimate werewolf.A fun but deeply flawed game.

[@Proximityillusions]

“Someone was too busy with shirt stupidity and forgot!!” Priceless.

[@pcpandemic3394]

counting on the calendar now! pre-ordering 10 copies right now, i'm tellin' ya!

[@robertbrookes2000]

I would have Secret Hitler and One Night Ultimate Werewolf high on my list. They both are great as everyone always has something to do, whether you're good or bad and it's engaging. Secret Hitler especially is very tactical and players always are trying to figure out who has what role, how likely is it for someone telling the truth etc.

[@jcb3393]

"Deception: Murder in Hong Kong" is like if "Concept" and "Werewolf" had a baby.

[@Skarpo89]

I've played Mafia for most of my life with normal playing cards, didn't know an actual produced copy existed, and didn't know Werewolf until about 5 years ago.

[@coastercouch4079]

I have some "hidden gems" to add: I prefer 'Sultans of Karaya' over plain Werewolf. One of the best 'Spyfall-like' games is 'Detective Club'. For heavier games I like to add 'Homeland: The Game'. And then, I have two games which might or might not be social deductions games: First, I'd like to suggest 'Betrayal at House on the Hill' (granted, it's not always social deduction). And second (and I bet you didn't see that one coming): 'Pow-Wow' / 'Coyote'. :) And 'Kremlin' as well as 'Colossal Arena' might also be social deduction games, because you need to find out, which candidates the players are supporting.

[@marcoschaub8978]

In my view, a social deduction game is that in exclusion of everything else. The goal of the game is the deduction. Which is why Dead of Winer is not a social deduction game. You have a specific colony goal and specific individual goals. Deducing if there is a traitor and who the traitor is is not a priority. There might even be no traitor. And there are co-op variants. The thing is, you could even take this further and say that Lords of Waterdeep is a social deduction game because players have different lords that if you can deduce them, will increase your chance of winning.

[@mikkerdtm9878]

I now want a Dice Tower calender!!!! Make it happen. Pleeeeease.

[@chrismusix5669]

How can you not like Avalon? And what was the video that they were referring to concerning Avalon?

[@davidwatkins1403]

We still play Mafia with an ordinary deck of cards or bits of paper giving your role.

[@pebbie510]

try town of salem

[@koben333]

Funny to hear you guys talking about online werewolf, and here we are, Tom is running werewolf games online :D

[@BenSaidScott]

Anyone remember which marathon The Resistance was played with Jason having the mini-fit?

[@keel1701]

I am pretty sure that was the Rahdo one, because I think Rahdo hugged him to calm him down.

[@FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb]

Zee must be super excited for a Cthulhu-themed BSG 2.0

[@michaelcastiglia2145]

Hail Hyrda Skurll sequel will be called Secret Invasion. Crossover pack mini expansion lets you combine Hail Hydra and Secret Invasion to one giant game....

[@martinlarouche4418]

My favorite social deduction, by far, and the one we always have a laugh when we play is Millions of Dollars by Matagot. We got rid of Resistance and we don't play One Night Werewolf anymore ever since we pkayed this.

[@RGcrasyRG]

Actually, pandemic-esc BSG may be cool: you are a group of doctors/scientist but one of you is sick and trying not to show it. (Like in any other zombie movie)

[@blind_surgeon]

That's basically Dark Moon.

[@commandershepherd3467]

We’re doing a game theme for my wedding and we’re going to have a meta game of Spyfall going where most guests know our honeymoon location, but some don’t (fictional exotic location). I think it’s going to be fun.

[@txsportsfreak02]

I like shadow hunters. What does everyone think?

[@MronkDotCom]

MAD or MED combines Deduction + Association. Its a new game, play 4-16 players (free app).

[@asnpogi]

Hey guys, Could we please an updated top 10 of this topic? Love your videos

[@Tysto]

Spyfall would make more sense if everyone is a spy, and the thing the traitor has to figure out is what the mission is, not the location. Then there could be a password you could work in to test the other person. Actually, don't steal that. I’m making that game.

[@jasonpmathew]

“You’ll see, wait til I unleash my time machine shenanigans upon you filthy humans”.

[@Barney5G]

Spyfall and chameleon are extremely similar. How can you love one and hate the other?

[@keel1701]

For me, Chameleon is too quick and there isn't enough discussion and subtlety to it. The back and forth and targetting specific people with pointed questions, and the cleverness of the questions and the answers makes Spyfall so much better for me. Chameleon isn't bad, just entirely unnecessary. Same with Fake Artist, although that has the added wrench of drawing.

[@AndICanTalk2]

You all are the best. So funny! Ty

[@Andromedax01]

I'm thinking of making a custom print & play of secret hitler rethemed as "secret cobra commander" where Cobra Commander and some Crimson Guards have infiltrated the government (as implied in the crimson guard bio) to try to pass ridiculous bills like "weaponized sharks" or "turn endangered species into radioactive mutants"... It would still essentially be the same theme, but not quite as grim overall

[@DanielHolding]

Funnily enough, April 25th is a public holiday here in NZ!

[@DarthEd77]

I’m not a fan of the theme of Secret Hitler either, but it is tastefully done. I actually think it’s kind of educational in how it shows how fascism could arise in a democratic system. It really is the best there is, on a mechanisms basis at least. Plus the Wil Wheaton narration in the app is hilarious! You all should try it.

[@Esbenrahr]

"Ultimate Werewolf Inquisition " could resolve one of your disagreements. Vasel puts Ultimate Werewolf high on the list and you others dislike it (correctly) for the early player eliminations. I have the "Ultimate Werewolf Inquisition " , where players are not eliminated when a villager is removed by either wolfs or villagers. You should try it.

[@iamflow2111]

You should really try secret Hitler, just saying 😁

[@blind_surgeon]

Secret Hitler sucks

[@leocarlton4364]

@@blind_surgeon No it doesnt it slaps hard

[@blind_surgeon]

@@leocarlton4364 "it slaps hard" OK zoomer.

[@Atlas-FM8]

Spyfall would make a lot more thematic sense if they remade it as a Quantum Leap game.

[@Traumtheater0]

I never get the 'dont make sense' argument. I just say, we talk about our 'secret location' where we want to meet! (we are not actually there yet) . The Spy wants to find out that location. Simple.

[@snogurt]

Atlas Films Haha! That’s actually a pretty great idea :)

[@tiagomarques9822]

Today is a National Holiday, but in Portugal: Revolution Day.

[@LuckyDippers]

You know you've watched a LOT of Dice Tower videos when they start on the Spyfall "Arrrre you...?" story and you want to tell them it was Sam!

[@giustinacasale4914]

Sooooo ... a calendar then???

[@lukesp00k]

No Burke's Gambit? One of my groups favourite... 1st Secret Hilter, 2nd Deception MIHK, 3rd Burks Gambit, 4th Avalon, 5th Coup.... Battlestar, A Study in Emerald, The Resistance and Dead of Winter would fill out the rest of the list. Still need to pick up Spyfall and Bang the Dice game. Got Nemesis and Growl to arrive soon, so they could break into the list.

[@lollmylifex3]

what did you think of Growl?

[@BassForever]

Deception Murder In Hong is my favorite social deduction game of all time, agree 100% with sam that more people + expansion is amazing. Only complaint is I wish there were a few more unique roles so even at higher player counts nobody is just an investigator

[@exiledsonofhawaii3934]

No shadow hunters? Idk if I can support that.

[@maxv658]

I would LOVE to get my hands on a copy of "A Study in Emerald," but being out of print makes it very difficult to find and justify the expense of, which is a shame.

[@gamera2351]

Yes Endgame's premier is a holiday! I'm with Tom. The only holiday bigger this year is The Rise of Skywalker's premier. Christmas is a distant 3rd place.

[@gamera2351]

Oh and what a spectacular holiday it was!!

[@staciehaden8888]

It clearly says "The Chameleon", and Spyfall is my work team's favorite game. Only one young person crumbles and fumbles when she's the spy. :)

[@ThymeKeeper]

I don't think anyone was concerned about whether Clue was going to be on the list :D.

[@scottelam3726]

They explained that... Clue is NOT "social deduction"... it's straight up deduction...

[@ThymeKeeper]

Well, yeah, but I don't think we're in any danger of seeing Clue on a Dice Tower Top 10, regardless ;)

[@ishoottheyscore8970]

Semi-coop to me is very much a role-play thing. For it to work, players need to engage with the game as much from the point of view of playing a character as about winning. I don't know if it works unless there is an element of social deduction in the course of the game. I'd be curious if someone could do a Pirate game where a mutiny could evolve (and whether that would still be social deduction) As for BattleStar Galactica, it felt like it needed streamlining. Having the CAG and the President on top of all the players powers make it a bit of a bear where it doesn't need to be. I wonder if that was part of what prompted Zee to wanting to see it rethemed as that would give more licence in simplifying some of the various elements.

[@eddiegloria9671]

The Thing board game is essentially BSG lite.

[@edwardbrost331]

Great list Zee ,I need to try hydra.

[@isaacalien]

I run Mafia: Vendetta by forum, I run Werewolf too but by including multiple special characters and the Yakuza third faction it's become far more in demand than Werewolf

[@mattmatier5745]

I think my favorites are Shadow Hunters and Tortuga 1667 (made by the same people as Salem 1692). I'd say if you tried Salem and found it not bad, give Tortuga a try.

[@annjourney14]

Social deduction is one of my least favorite genres, but I do like The Name of the Rose. If I'm going to play any sort of deduction game, it might as well be a Feld.

[@DarthEd77]

Bryce Journey I’d love to see that reprinted!

[@WuaghhhhXMA]

Tom's wearing a Hunter & Cron shirt :)

[@LassePeterson]

Where can I preorder the Calendar?

[@florianstock376]

A good one I am missing is "Tortuga 1667"

[@dancondonjones]

I’m sure I remember Sam having an aversion to saying words “Hail Hydra” in a previous video (IIRC because of them being standing for Nazis). I guess he’s gotten over it now.

[@ivankertznusrivera889]

32:07 not Tom predicting the Covid Pandemic

[@snogurt]

Have any of you tried Blood on the Clocktower?

[@jehovaservant_591]

How was 2 rooms and a boom not on this list?

[@WaltF]

Have y’all played “Dracula’s Feast”? I wonder how it would rank :-) thanks for another Top 10!

[@gamera2351]

Captain Marvel: Secret Skrulls is already a game. Its out. Its already in retail. I've been waiting for a review from you guys actually. How does Marvel Loving Tom not know this?

[@eVanDiesel]

Came here to say this

[@martinsonnleitner5516]

Nice Hunter&Cron Shirt! Shout out to my favourite german reviewers!!

[@michaellarusch4317]

Does anyone play Two Rooms and a Boom?

[@boardgamekrucke5212]

I think HUMAN PUNISHMENT is missing on the list. For me it has completely replaced BANG - the dice game (43 different roles and the 66 programs make it different)

[@pikkdogs]

It’s hard because they are all so similar but some games work better with different people. I think one night ultimate werewolf might be the best choice amongst them all. My favorite is Hail Hydra, yet it’s null because I won’t ever find again 5 other people who like Marvel and social deduction games.

[@Steve-L]

Hail Hydra - I bought and played this once. I don't think it went over well with my family, not enough SuperHero love, I think I would like it more with the right group. Spyfall - I thought it slightly fun at first but began to dislike it, but my family thought it was pretty good. I only own and have played the original. It hasn't been played in quite awhile. Dead of Winter - played this twice, 1st play didn't go well, 2nd play was great and quite enjoyed it. I would like to play more, not sure if I would put this game in this category. Battlestar Galactica: I have played this twice and liked it, enough to buy it. However, I now think it is way too long for what it is, to play any more. I am surprised Tom forgot that this is out of print. Because he said it was oop almost a year ago, and when I heard that, I sold my copy and got nearly $100 for it. Shadows over Camelot - one of the very few games that took more than 1 play to see if I liked it. After 3 plays, I decided it was okay at best. I sold my copy. One of a small handful of games I bought when I first came into the hobby based on Dice Tower videos, and regretted. Bang: the Dice Game - I like it, but it doesn't get much play any more, my family enjoyed the card game more, but both games have fallen out of favor. Deception: Murder in Hong Kong - played it once, and I made a rule error. It had mixed results, not sure if it will get played again, but I am interested in trying it. The Resistance: I played this several times in 1 sitting in a convention and liked it. Never played it again. Although I would love to. Chameleon - I bought this based off of Tom's review, my family seems to like it more than me, but Insider replaced it. Werewords/Insider - my most played game, and currently my 2nd favorite game of all time. I own and play Insider, but we use the Werewords app. I refuse to buy Werewords, because I think the game was stolen, however, I prefer the simpler game play of Insider anyways. We just use the word generator and timer. We also created 1 new rule, we ask questions in turn order, to help alleviate the more quiet people problem, although players can pass. It takes a little longer so we added more time to the game. Werewolf - this game was a huge hit for my family and friends but has since fallen, we will still play when we have enough players. One Night Werewolf - this one has never caught on well, although we recently played it on Easter. Burke's Gambit - fairly popular with my family but we don't play it often Good Cop Bad Cop - this didn't go over well with my family, but did a little better in my Meetup, but eventually got lost in the shuffle Mafia de Cuba - got mixed results with my family. I thought it okay at best

[@Dragonite43]

Where is the intro music from?

[@thortheviking]

We can play board games any time, Tom

[@mouven934]

I was shocked, my favorite game was on none of your lists. It’s called “Tempel des Schreckens”. I looked it up and there is only a German and Polish version of it. If you have the chance, try it! Its language independent and on bgg there is a fan made translation of the rules.

[@markusschmidt9260]

Zee had it on his list as #3. Don't Mess with Cthulhu

[@mouven934]

​@@markusschmidt9260 ok, you are right. these games are very similar. But in our game groups the game was always very tight and never over in the first round xD

[@jcb3393]

4:51 - "I love your running pantomime. It's one of my favorite things." (replaces video of Tom "running" with picture of game) :-(

[@MadLadDesigns]

Tom, I think you need a new microphone clip if it constantly needs adjusting like that...... ;)

[@georgeschneider4147]

surprised Zee didn't have Shadow Hunters on the list.

[@mathiaslangford1948]

Tortuga 1667 is a great one! U guys need to try it

[@michaelbuchanan4350]

Nice Battletech shirt Tom!

[@TheOneBartender]

If Sam realizes that the Internet now knows his mobile phone's unlock pattern?

[@thedicetower]

Sam here...which doesn't do you any good unless it's in your hands and not mine, right?

[@TheOneBartender]

@@thedicetower Which is unlikely as I live in Germany. Just noticed it and thought it was funny :-)

[@TheOneBartender]

@@thedicetower Reflecting back on this, I realize that this conversation makes it sound like I would do something terrible if only I got my hands on Sam's mobile phone. Which I would never. But there are people out there who might. And losing one's mobile phone is a real possibility. Therefore protecting one's passwords is important. Sam should probably change his unlock pattern. I am saying this out of genuine concern and do not mean to be sarcastic or condescending or whatever. I hope I did not leave that impression.

[@thedicetower]

@@TheOneBartender Sam here...you left no such impression at all. No worries! Thanks for your concern.

[@HarfangX]

Shadows Over Camelot is not a game you recommend to someone looking for a social deduction game... the social deduction aspect is VERY secondary and sometimes not even in the game.

[@AHolmesDk]

The best dice driven social deduction game is burke’s gambit.!

[@Steve-L]

My family likes it, but we don't play it often

[@VaultBoy13]

Hail Hydra is at the top of my list. The powers of the superheroes are fun. The knock out phase is fun. It's just a great game. I like Dark Moon better, especially with the expansion, but Hail Hydra is a lot easier to get to the table.

[@ToucanSamich]

I really need to try it again, I played it and didn't fully understand my first play and because of that no-one had fun with it, I haven't got it back out because of that. But I keep hearing good things about it

[@mysongska]

2 words... Secret Hitler. Play it...love it...

[@mattvucu6706]

mysongska patriots and redcoats basically stole the mechanisms from secret hitler and good cop bad cop so technically they like it

[@edwardbrost331]

Yes reception and then Hitler for me.

[@edwardbrost331]

Deception

[@sanemalk9957]

Secret Hitler is the favorite social deduction game of our group. Always requested and will be played multiple times in a night. Great game!

[@Bodyknock]

Yeah kind of odd that none of them have played Secret Hitler yet. You would think it would have been played at some point as a filler given how popular it is.

[@dianajennings9286]

“Do you need a hug?”lol

[@asnpogi]

How about Salem?

[@chivazfreak8]

Gave the like for Tom’s shirt shenanigans lol

[@Tanimal1]

Isn’t Escape from aliens in outer space social deduction for the alien players as they don’t want to accidentally kill the other aliens? No one knows who anyone else is at the beginning.

[@kaikaganishu1565]

You seem to have left out Human Punishment. Or havent you played it yet?

[@Starscream103]

Kai Kaganishu do you recommend it? I’m considering on getting it thru the late pledge link.

[@kaikaganishu1565]

@@Starscream103 If you are in the market for social deducation, absolutely yes. I only have Deception and Human Punishment, they scratch different itches, but I dont feel the need to get any other now that I have those two.

[@CME3]

One calendar please!

[@antoyal]

59:54 "This May Day, make a date for Mayday Games' Mayday Mayday."

[@freekyflow]

I think Sam is totally confused between social deduction and traitor mechanic.

[@freekyflow]

Shadows over Camelot, BSG and Dead of Winter are definitely not Social Deduction games...

[@wicaksonoadi1035]

No "Awkward Guests"? On Tom's review he said is his favorite deduction game of all time.

[@AndiVx]

Awkward Guests is a deduction game, but it's not a social deduction game. Huge difference between those two genres, but one of them (deduction in general) kinda encapsulates the other (the social deduction subgenre). Pure deduction would fit Clue/Cluedo, and social deduction would fit Werewolf.

[@wicaksonoadi1035]

@@AndiVx Gotcha. Deception Murder in Hong Kong is definitely my group's favorite social deduction game.

[@AndiVx]

@@wicaksonoadi1035 also, that one feels a bit like normal deduction too. That's what makes it special. ^^ Social deduction is my favorite genre by far

[@DJF1984]

So who's starting the Dice Tower pin up calendar petition?

[@dorpth]

Dark Moon didn't even make ANY of the lists???? It's way more fun, less "solved", and much faster than BSG. I don't know anyone who still plays BSG. The length, expansion bloat, and solveability turned it obsolete. It's one of the pre-2010 boardgames that just doesn't hold up to modern design. Dark Age of Camelot is an even more obsoleted form of BSG. I didn't know anyone who played it 5 years ago, let alone now. Bang the dice game kind of fell off for me. It's okay if everyone just wants a quick no thinking King of Tokyo type game, but the social deduction part is so thin and obvious. I've never played a game where everyone's identity wasn't fairly apparent by the end of the first round. The only sort of tricky part is telling the deputies from the renegades, but it almost doesn't matter because it's next to impossible for the renegades to win. Seriously though, go play Dark Moon.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Dark Moon is fine but their main issue is the dice force you to look suspicious so it's artificial in nature. That's a put off.

[@dorpth]

How is it any different from getting dealt all fascist laws in Secret Hitler? Or personal goals in Dead of Winter? Or two bad jump cards in BSG? Or personal goals or Cylon Leaders in BSG?

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

@@dorpth To be fair I hate Secret Hitler and aren't a Dead of Winter fan. BSG is a bit too long but I feel Moon abstracts it a bit too much. I still like the simplicity of Camelot.

[@keel1701]

@@dorpth personal goals in DoW/BSG (which no one I know plays with in BSG for this reason) still have you choose your action and you can decide when you do it. Plus as far as DoW goes it isn't publicly known that you did it. For BSG the game is soooooo much more than jump cards, as long as you toss in cards to solve the problems you're facing there isn't any problem, so even if you are good you can still contribute to winning. For Secret Hitler you can use a double Fascist card to your advantage to throw the other person under the bus anyway i.e. if the person giving you two fascists doesn't fess up right away ("I had all fascist cards!") you gain information on them and you can immediately call them out. The problem with Dark Moon is the Dice dictate what you can do, and bad dice means you cannot progress your side towards a win at all, and more than that you are FORCED to hurt your team at least once. With the BSG cards you can choose not to contribute, with jump cards you're at least going forward, with DoW personal goals you're still helping yourself, and with Secret Hitler you're playing the game by adding to the social deduction.

[@dreadknot69]

I have to say .. We played Deception and really did not like it. We played four games and all of them were figured out by the first clues given out.

[@keel1701]

How many players? Did the murderer pick obvious items that didn't have any similarities with anything else? Did the forensic scientist talk and/or pick specific tiles to choose the clues from instead of randomly? Did people know who the murderer was beforehand or was the witness obvious and you forgot to kill the witness at the end? I ask because those are all gameplay/rules mistakes that I've seen happen that messed the game up. I find it really hard to believe that it was that easy and also not fun.