Tweek Talks about LVL Up Expo 2024 | Episode 149

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Edited by
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0:00 Intro/Basketball
4:44 Lvl Up Expo 2024
13:05 General Thoughts/Player Shoutouts
14:06 Charles Light's Performance/Fast Fallers
33:06 Thonon Gaming Fest 3/Classic Match Ups
39:35 Platform Fighters/Making a Good Game
51:41 Player Influence/"Battle Pass" in Games
55:17 Games with Soul/Aggressive Fighting Games
1:10:26 Artificial Replay Value/Outro
#SmashBros #TweekTalks #Ultimate

[@SirSloth100]

Tweek talks and Lights Out being posted at the same time is crazy 😭😭😭

[@playboybrendo103]

Because they wanna be like Tweek talks so bad. It’s honestly kinda weird

[@badmana5768]

@@playboybrendo103 yeah fr, it's insane since tweek talks is the first podcast ever and a completely original idea 👍🏻

[@jonny7444]

​@@playboybrendo103lights out clears

[@samuelgonzalez7203]

I don't think they want to be like this podcast, I feel they are more crazy and chiling which I don't really like that and this one is chilling and all that but it gets very technical when is needed and I like that, so I think they are doing their own stuff and this one has their own stuff, there is no reason to compere these two podcasts.

[@Matt_102k]

Who's going to tell Tweek that all the Rivals devs compete in Rivals brackets

[@megamecha100]

Someone outside the overwatch community talking so accurately about its current trajectory is CRAZY

[@mukinabahtx338]

love the section about a game’s “purity” and developers not catering to a competitive scene i think it’s beneficial for a game’s mechanics to speak for themselves and for a meta to grow and develop naturally within a community that just appreciates the nuance and potential to push the concepts

[@MasterAbeer101]

Very happy to see Light get a win even if Level Up wasn't considered a major. He's always super fun to watch!

[@NoRizzBlade]

Yeah Light with the Sonix win will help so well with rankings. At least he is hype.

[@DedikateSSB]

I cant believe tweek donkey kong is back

[@feresoththedamned2688]

BEST EPISODE EVER, that game dev discussion you all had answered some questions i had in mind, now i know for a fact when i make my dream game i have in mind, i know it is gonna be the best thing ever!

[@mgbrad5018]

Tweek is right. My first thought is about whats going on with Tekken and street fighter right now. All of twitter complains about character balance or say “game sucks fix it” without thinking about how successful it is for the general audience or how fun the current amount of content is.

[@pawnz121]

Street fighter has had the opposite issue, it's had one minor balance patch in a year

[@mgbrad5018]

@@pawnz121 with SF6 specifically people complained for literal months on twitter requesting a Balance Patch but then didn’t specify what they wanted it to be.

[@nextos]

49:01 I can't believe tweek is saying there should be no competitive games period. I am shocked and outraged and went straight to the comment section. to post my disbelief on this heresy

[@SentientPulse]

How dare a developer have the intention of making a game about competition lmao. I agree with a game should have soul and establish its world/creative design but I don’t think competitive and having soul are separating factors. There are games that accomplish both. I think Tweek also plays mostly single player/non-competitive games and it heavily impacts his opinion. There’s a lot of good points and some rambling. Also according to his logic that developers shouldn’t listen to their community/players, they shouldn’t take his advice here as well lol. Definitely shouldn’t cater to everyone, but feedback and helping a game grow vs design choices and sticking your ground is complicated in general.

[@rexthereptile2492]

no capitancito acknowledgement 😔

[@BOBSUSHI32]

That’s a good thing tbh

[@nathanlevesque7812]

@@BOBSUSHI32 trog

[@axelnilsson2031]

they mad he didnt take out sonix

[@toffee781]

I 100% AGREE with Tweek saying that Valorant feels like an AI made game. To me Valorant is like an AI trying to put everything "good" onto one game, so it ended up being soulless and bland.

[@KamikazeNinja05]

I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that. The climate of gaming that Valorant comes from is a lot different than Smash. Smash is lightening in a bottle where they had all of these super inspired IPs and crammed all of their content into a fighter which he says himself. If Tweek had a better example to compare Valorant I might agree more. Valorant is 100% a money machine first and game second, but I think they do well with promotional videos, cosmetic content and whatnot. If it was really that soulless it would be a dead game. It comes from a very corporate place but it delivers the product it promises well.

[@JonnyJayKhan]

Tweek forgetting he smoked Sonix earlier in the year

[@playboybrendo103]

By luck tbh

[@guibrito14]

That's why I don't think Diddy vs Fox is as bad for Diddy as Tweek says. Even if Diddy loses neutral overall, Fox suffers greatly if hit horizontally, and Diddy is one of the best characters in the game at exploiting horizontal play. Fair, Monkey Flip and Banana its a mixup that can always put Fox in a ledge trap or edge guard situation and Diddy can always punish Fox for a stock. Even historically if you look at Zero playing that MU in Smash 4, which has its similarities, you can see how consistently he would beat Fox on the edge. Even MU.

[@splish_tx]

I'm in the Kickstarter backer discord for Rivals 2 and they have a game feedback thread. When you have players coming from Rivals 1, Melee, Ult, PM, P+, HDR, etc you get a lot of people with conflicting feedback for game mechanics. Hopefully Dan and the team stick with their guns about their fundamental design decisions because it's literally impossible to please everyone.

[@Cheniman007]

It's so interesting to see that the other end of the developer listening to the community spectrum is also not ideal. it was interesting to see you guys explain that the sweetspot is somewhere in the middle.

[@Woodpli]

As a guy whose two competitive games are Smash and Overwatch, this was an interesting episode to watch. I like what Tweek is saying about soul in a game, and I think Smash is loaded with it. The fact that Smash manages to be such a fun competitive experience despite not being expressly made for it is actually crazy impressive from a game design standpoint.

[@juansantiago6824]

Rivals mentioned 🗿

[@TheLronGiant]

48:35 literally pausing the video to say how INSANE it drove me that because beginner level players couldn’t figure out how to juggle the biggest, least actionable, and WORST character in the game the Multiversus team nerfed The Iron Giant into the DIRT. He was the worst character in the game and then he got a whole swath of nerfs multiple patches in a row.

[@TheLronGiant]

Nobody has ever known less about what makes a game fun than gamers

[@jmann531]

Agreed, Twitter had a freaking vice grip on MVS. Now I'm not gonna act like mvs didn't have many problems but it felt like so many people refused to adapt and ignored blatant problems for example, the superman mains downplaying there character and crying when their grab spike didn't kill at zero pissed me off. And then the devs folded and reversed the nerf, no stand your ground lol.

[@NoRizzBlade]

Lol Iron Giant copium. Stop crying and adapt, kid. Coming at me for being upset about Marth and here you are, smh. Hypocrite.

[@thuthan8852]

SUCH a good podcast episode. Always appreciate the discussion.

[@rockinon011]

Tweeks opinions on gave dem design are GOATED keep talking your truth king

[@alexcoluna]

honestly that's the beauty of competitive smash to me especially with ultimate. some of these chars are demons and there are no more patches left yet players are out here fighting for their life trying to figure it out. i gotta give it up.

[@alexcoluna]

also tweek continues to prove he has good taste.

[@KbanjoK]

Knicks choked so fucking hard. If we lose this series I'm gonna lose it

[@nevohyams]

this sixers knicks series has been unbelievable

[@goosnavslakovic4908]

One thing to remember with fox when you get him above you is he can move vertically better than most characters, but he has no air drift. He only goes straight up and down. The mixup is whether he uses a defensive or offensive option. If you have an option that covers both? Now it's timing. Disjoints, lingering hits, and anti airs are your best friend.

[@flyingpenguin9938]

might be my favorite episode yet

[@BOBSUSHI32]

Happy to see Chuck always keeping it real with Steve

[@luiegiii]

As a big fan of Rivals lately I have to agree with part of what Gavin said about the competitive voice in gaming. Recently Dan Fornace and company announced during a developer stream that they have to release the single player content AFTER the competitive mode is released. I left a comment saying this was a mistake. They made a promise to the consumers that single player would come with the game and they are going against their word. Dan even said that they added ledges to the game because they wanted to make money. They knew that Rivals 1 was too hard for casuals yet they still haven’t committed to the casual audience in the most basic way in which casuals don’t just like to compete with friends but they like to cooperate. That’s what couch co-op is all about. Imo Smash ultimate actually failed in this respect because couch co-op is not very good in this game compared to others. I hope this type of feedback is taken seriously because it truly gives a game staying power in a world where companies are imploding because they tried to cater to competitive gamers. I believe in patching overtuned abilities or buffing weak characters but to cater completely to competitive will leave out the casuals and cause you to bleed money. Good take Tweek.

[@tropicalmonix1038]

I predict tweeks pocket he's working on to be either Snake, Roy, or wolf.

[@tropicalmonix1038]

Or maybe it's young link for a few characters 🤔

[@Kukublu92]

Charles said it’s a character he hasn’t played in tournament before so no Roy or Wolf

[@DairInNeutral]

@@Kukublu92"never played in tournament seriously"

[@liche414]

@@DairInNeutral donkey kong then

[@Weebfox]

I really liked the acknowledgement to smash just being FUN. With all the complaining, at the end of the day we play this game cuz it's a damn good game thats just fun to play Love the pod as always!

[@Ivan-se5ge]

Loved the talk about other games!! Also Maxey da goat

[@_tokii__]

The stream quality was pretty choppy for lvl up expo.

[@ibrahimbeats]

one thing about negative feedback or criticism also is that you're way more likely to complain about a game than praise it so it's not out of the question that a dev could just see small minority opinions and feel like it's the prevailing one

[@jonathangraham1865]

I would like to see Tweek’s Fox. Fox can defeat steve g&w sonic

[@ElCactusKing]

Tweek my Goat🔥

[@d8-remy]

👀My guess is Tweek will play Bowser Jr

[@Jero1020]

Wha? car model details now!

[@freshonixe2451]

Hazmat you legend, ofcourse you played hon the best moba

[@JolactusJ5x5]

Tweek dropping truth bombs

[@maladavexa296]

I started Valorant two months ago and I love it lol

[@J0ulez5]

So not all multiplayer games should be competitive. But I think that you need to balance the vs experience around highest level play. Because those are the guys looking to break and exploit it the most. That doesn't mean you should try to make it competitive. Or listen to competitive feedback. But you need to have a vision for what you want online vs to look like. And it probably shouldn't have limited overcentralising tactics

[@npclucario7005]

I know the game gets a lot of flack, and a lot of it is understandable, but I think that fortnite is another example of a game that is fun casually that also has a thriving competitive side.

[@johnowens2270]

Suns fan here as well lol... never have hope... never

[@humouringg]

58:00 I thought it was a well known fact Nintendo would nerf characters after they do well in tournament. Captain falcon, joker, wario, zss? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying

[@crrc77]

@Tweek i think sunglasses which dont change much of what you see would be a good tool for future tournaments. Level Up was way to flashy onstage i think.

[@GrapeApe115]

I swear you guys are always coincidentally trying things out the same time as me after not playing Yu-Gi-Oh for awhile got back into it with Edison format attended a tournament too

[@timothycorsello2480]

what does Gavin feel about Project M and how it fits into his "dev's shouldn't be involved in competition" take? I honestly strongly disagree with this take due to the quality of life changes in project m and project plus, but I also know that y'all have tried it so I'm curious to see if you agree.

[@NoRizzBlade]

Ignaize playing full Lucina and then not hitting top 32 💀 If it really makes things easier in the long run then so be it. Not a fan of the choice though. I am more proud of Japenese players for sticking with whoever THEY like and don't fold to tier list nonsense. Also proud of Light for continuing to make Fox work and not rely on counterpicks.

[@Jankid329]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t a lot of pro players from Smash4 involved with the development of Ultimate? I could’ve sworn Komorikiri was one of them.

[@simonblack6499]

I’m so curious what Tweek thinks of Apex 😅

[@SadFace229]

I've been learning Diddy combos lately and from game 1 of Tweek versus Light, I started to worry for Tweek due to noticing missed combos. Good to see my knowledge is improving to catch it with the confirmation here. And the grand Finals Light versus Sonix was incredible. The Fox Sonix matchup forces Sonic to play differently since Fox has the speed to catch up and has priority over Sonic's moves. But it looks like Sonix found a way to even it up with the Nair usage. Tweek's "hot take" isn't a hot take at all. Games greenlit by corporate boards designed to capture X audience will generally not be as successful as a game developed by a game designer wanting to build X game because he thinks it's fun and thinks other will enjoy it. Well, this is survivorship bias, I'll amend my statement to say the former are safe and consistent games while the latter will have many failures but a few mega stars will emerge that become culturally recognized. So I've heard, a number of MMO trends popped up to the detriment of the genre because an influential MMO title started listening to the hardcore 2000+ hour players and prioritized satiating their desires for harder and harder content. Hearsay, I'm not too familiar with MMO history. Smash has an advantage in having Mashedpotato Samurai; one of the greatest game developers to exist. He designed Smash as a call out to how difficult and technical fighting games were in the 90's and has stayed true to that sentiment (after Melee). He does pay attention to the competitive scene, but he refuses to compromise on the vision of making sure the game is accessible to everyone. It's why he did a massive reset moving from Melee to Brawl. But he has inched forward with the team at Bandai Namco and I think Ultimate is the perfect sweetspot. I hope casuals feel the same way.

[@jayjigga]

NEXT WEEK IS 150

[@22jdawgjb]

Celtics in 5 boys 😈 Celtics in 5 ☘️☘️☘️☘️☘️☘️☘️☘️☘️☘️. Great episode boys!!

[@ToucanBinks]

👍

[@buffmastaflexx]

Jahzo (sp?) could have very well beaten light too, he was playing phenomenally.

[@boonger]

In defense of Valorant without ignoring a lot of the weird problems with it now, I think the original appeal of the game was that it was a game with the core mechanics of counter strike but devs that were willing to add in new content, characters, maps, etc. on a semi consistent basis. The world and characters were originally not a draw to the game since obviously it was entirely new IPs and I would agree that the designs definitely lack an identity but I think the devs were more concerned with having really solid foundational gameplay over memorable characters and bonus content. Nowadays with the in-game eSports integration and franchising making the pro scene very tired alongside a really toxic community I think the gameplay is not worth the drawbacks.

[@attspace]

nick all stars 2 is actually good

[@thtguyericcc1811]

Charles saying he plays protoss then saying he's not a piece of shit is just a straight up lie smh

[@kareemeldin1560]

Lmao charles looks bored as hell everytime yall talk about basketball haha I love it tho Im down for a tweek talks basketball podcast

[@Joshuak2k4]

I see your point on the developers and player base being so untwined but to say something like OW has no soul is a bit extreme I will say there are things that may seem like that from the outside looking in but the game has changed a lot and a person that plays it a lot would know

[@Joshuak2k4]

I feel the bad publicity has given it a bad reputation to have that mindset from other people

[@RemixkingDystansy]

76ers in 7

[@ConradSly]

Tweek's perspective on Rivals is pretty confusing because RoE was always a "competitive" game first. Fighting games in general are competitive, they naturally fit into the landscape of esports, regardless of the intent of the developers. You might say they didn't put an emphasis on esports, but's that's mostly because they are an indie development team. I don't think it's possible to look at RoE and not think of smash, that seems like a cap to me. I don't personally think it's wrong to emphasize competitive user experience options during development if that is your goal. Smash has a lot of "soul" because every character has literally had decades of character development and nostalgia built into them. It's important to look at these kinds of things as objectively as possible so you don't end up being a prisoner to your own nostalgia. In general game's have lost some "soul" because you can make a lot more money creating meta-narrative experiences that are in a feedback loop of audience driven memes cycling in and out of fashion. Take fortnite for example. Can't say I care about any of the characters there as much as I care about Samus or Link, but that hardly seems to affect their abilities to make a truck load of money. There's no incentive to create a game with a linear narrative that really creates a "soul" for the game, at least if your goal is to make a competitive game first. I agree that Valorant is a soul-less game, but so is Counter-strike by that same logic, these games skew heavily towards "competitive first" as was league of legends and tft, hence why in my own nostalgia I have a lot more attachment to DotA which carried the history of Warcraft inside of it for me. Players don't play these games for soul, it's a totally different market.

[@lom1991]

Everyone is trying to be melee even tho most say brawl is the best one

[@jonteguy]

As a long time Tekken fan and player I disliked Tekken 8 at release. It was still a fun game but Tekken 7 was more fun imo. But reading patch notes and stuff they are buffing defense in T8 again, so yey.

[@humouringg]

I don’t understand the basketball talk they’re saying, can someone translate it in Fortnite terms?

[@Caaaaspeeer]

so this is how it feels to be first huh

[@tally.klecko]

If the game is no longer being steered by the makers, it's not art anymore.

[@HoldenThompson-HoHo]

Is it me or have they never called light anything other than light before this episode haha

[@j.prt.979]

Nah they’ve definitely called him Paris before. Depends on the person talking too.

[@HoldenThompson-HoHo]

If you link the podcast and time stamp of one instance I’ll believe you. I say never

[@j.prt.979]

@@HoldenThompson-HoHo literally last week kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4m1mnahh9Jojqssi=TtFaJs1rOoLvqiox Haz calls him Paris around 12:39. There are more that are older but I’m not doing your homework for you lol. In general, Haz calls him Paris the most.

[@HoldenThompson-HoHo]

Ty, you were right

[@theelsanto32]

Gavin you dingus

[@Mrdlt_]

1:10:29 Tweek giving my Kanye vibes on how passionate he is on his opinions 😂

[@2010bhood]

Kendrick didn’t do anything that serious. Waited a month for a mid diss with recycled material 😂

[@chuxnorris919]

This has to be a troll

[@gotabonetopick2942]

It’s mid in comparison to what exactly? Drake’s lines about being richer and taller? What a diss lol

[@St.Aether]

Drake fan spotted

[@lokks2130]

The "recycled material" argument makes no sense. How are you mad that more than one person is calling him out on shady shit? Step outside of rap for one second and just think about that.

[@2010bhood]

@@St.Aether I mean yall are just Kendrick fans.

[@StudyingManually]

Lame. Light is not likeable and luckily did not win a major

[@QuynhAn689]

Honestly all this bitching about steve is making be lose respect for tweek, I mean if you so convince the charecter is unfair then just pick him. I hate steve with all of my being but for real complainting about how you can't win the game without even trying is so cowardly.

[@yafilmme6160]

No talk of the Kendrick diss at all

[@Dekutard]

idk man. look how SH is listening to the community with MW3 and it’s godlike. IW doesn’t know wtf a fun game is. it makes sense to me to be close to the community and what people want