'Be A Man': Modernists and Traditionalists Debate Masculinity | VICE Debates

There are many faces of masculinity. It means a lot of things to a lot of different people.
What do modernists and traditionalists think about masculinity? What does it really mean to be a "man"?
01:06 What Does it Mean to be a "man"?
04:59 Is there a Masculinity Crisis?
09:28 Tell Me About Your Dad
15:34 Dating & Sex
20:13 The 'Me Too' Movement
30:37 Pressure to Look Good and Be Buff
36:30 What is "Big Dick Energy"?
38:01 When Masculinity Becomes Violent
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#masculinity

[@VICE]

WATCH NEXT: Asian Americans Debate Model Minority & Asian Hate - kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3e4pphrbax7bsU

[@misterpopo5175]

Give us the uncensored uncutted discussion with the feminists. Since vice equals libtard I can fully understand why it is not in your interest to not show how pearl destroyed them libtardes feminists

[@NiyahStyles]

Thank you VICE 🔥!

[@tyronewilliams2007]

How are young boys and men with testosterone running through their veins, and being boys and men considered toxic. Why are the masculine women not considered toxic femininity? Being masculine has everything to do with testosterone, not how you feel, men grow some balls because women have been running isht for a while and society is falling apart because of it it goes against everything in the animal kingdom. Society has been civilized to the point of extreme comfort thanks to a man's masculinity/testosterone/strength and now women in particular want men to turn it off in the same fashion as they do their feelings and feminity when they are in the face of a man crying in front of them, when in fact they/women seem to be more interested/attracted to the masculine man. GTFOH If it were not for us we would all still be cave dwellers. Soft, sensitive, emotional men. That's funny! Show me a soft sensitive emotional lion and I'll show you a loin getting ran from his territory.

[@animestuff3732]

Bias Lieing Low Life Sh*t Stains 😡

[@user-ht2fi3ys1r]

vice this is why ur my favorite channel 🤲🏼

[@amyegreene3852]

The lineup of men was pretty diverse except for the absence of anyone 65 or older. We have the potential to grow until we take our last breath. The elders should be present during these conversations as well.

[@rparks623]

Excellent point. They (we) could have cleared up some confusion. I'm 70.

[@Foreheadsnatcher]

@@rparks623 dam. What’s it like being 70 if you don’t mind me asking

[@herbertdonnellgrayiii4305]

They don't have any testosterone left

[@2mlncore618]

right???? justice for hot daddys #dilfs

[@matlee9832]

@@rparks623 what do you have to add to this conversation that hasn’t been said? Me as a youngin (19) like to assume that all older men are unconvinceable when it comes to changing their traditional views of masculinity.

[@americanhumaninterferencet7550]

Pink shirt guy really gave me the impression of a man who has learned and changed a lot. He must cherish his daughters and really value them as individuals. He recognized his flaws and short comings, and how he could have treated his wife better as a young man. Age and wisdom often go together

[@SilentXtract]

I think he saw the best and worst in humanity he’s been to war he cherishes life probably more everyday bc some maybe a lot of his fellow marines will never have the ability to grow from the aggressive combat infantryman to a man away from war and being able to wake up to watch the sunrise instead of fighting to survive the next sunset

[@oipolloi4242]

That's a soldier bro, rise to the occasion.

[@americanhumaninterferencet7550]

@Kevin O'Toole I respect the hell out of any man who can see combat and still learn to live in peacetime. It's a hard thing, making that transition is not a given. I think that's why tragically mental illness is extremely common amongst marines.

[@liqwidmediaworkztv]

He also seems like the most traumatized. I feel like he’s holding back though.

[@congondubz6257]

He should sort out the "wife" issue, and then he will be fine.

[@doasty]

I think some are confusing masculinity with being a responsible respectful person

[@Black-ICE92]

Exactly

[@elani9624]

that comes with being a man

[@gamer1X12]

this is literally a part being masculine and a gentleman lmfao. thats like saying some people are confusing femininity with being a mom. yeah sure, its not always the case but dont act like there isnt an association 90% of the time. you sound ridiculous.

[@BroJo676]

A masculine man is a man who knows to take responsibility for his actions and manages to be there for people who needs him, especially the family he is creating.

[@ratkillerthe]

I didn't watch the whole episode because of "walk with lord jesus christ" dude...BUT I heard a lot of "being a man is being responsible" and "getting things done", so... things a fully functional grown human being should be able to do.

[@moniquegilbert607]

As a female raised by my dad, I don’t think it’s the father figure or mother figure you miss. I think what you’re feeling is rejection pure and simple. It hurts for a parent to not want you. I don’t think it’s their gender you miss. It’s their presence.

[@camrynnichelson1349]

Perfect take. I never thought about it like that before.

[@d.derreck_2191]

Nevertheless, every child needs a female and a male in their upbringing/life.

[@ffreshfields5211]

@@d.derreck_2191 As someone who had that, but who was raped and severely mentally and emotionally abused in childhood, I think what is even more important is to have safe and loving parental figures than what their gender is. Also, people who have a only one parent or two same gender parents, may still have male and female role models and strong inputs in their upbringing if they are very close to an aunt/uncle, much older sibling, grandparents, etc. There are so many different ways to grow up and different people around who can be a male or masculine and female or feminine guidance. The worst thing, is having people but who are absolutely abusive and downright dangerous as opposed to being positive role models at all. What we need most, is love and positive examples of safety and kindness and responsibility, whoever will show and give us that

[@mistyvaughn6356]

My dad was absent and even though I know I always had his love, I still hurt for his actual prescence. It felt like there was a gap in our family.

[@mrblend]

Disagree... but I can see why you think like that. Statistics show that kids raised by Single moms... majority go downhill where as....kids raised by Single dads do way better. And kids do overwhelmingly better with mom and dads at home

[@alyssareinke1357]

Seeing people have a conversation even when it gets uncomfortable is so healing. These talks NEED TO HAPPEN.

[@michaelgill387]

these people are hand-selected. this conversation would be different if you took 12 random men. more soft left-wing comedy.

[@torihuerta7039]

The non-binary individual, Griffin, was trying to prove that the notion of masculinity and gender roles are social constructs that ultimately uphold patriarchal systems and oppressive power dynamics. They challenged the idea that certain traits or behaviors should be exclusively attributed to men or women, arguing that these gender norms are arbitrary and limiting. One of the main disadvantages for the other men in understanding Griffin's perspective was their deeply ingrained beliefs and experiences surrounding traditional masculinity. Many of them grew up in environments where specific gender roles were enforced, and deviating from those norms was discouraged or even punished. As a result, they struggled to separate their personal identities and values from the societal expectations placed upon them as men. Additionally, some of the men seemed to conflate masculinity with biological differences between males and females. They viewed traits like physical strength, aggression, and logical thinking as inherently masculine, rather than recognizing that these characteristics can manifest across all genders and are often shaped by cultural factors rather than biology alone. The promotion of the gender binary and stereotypes about men stemmed from a desire for stability and predictability. By adhering to prescribed gender roles, these men believed they could more easily navigate social interactions and relationships. The idea of a "real man" provided a clear set of expectations and guidelines, even if those expectations were limiting or harmful. Furthermore, some of the men derived a sense of privilege and power from traditional masculine roles. The notion of being the provider, protector, and leader within a household or society appealed to their desire for control and status. Challenging these gender norms threatened to undermine their perceived superiority and the benefits they reaped from the patriarchal system. Griffin faced pressure from these men because their perspective fundamentally challenged the ideologies and beliefs that many of the men had built their identities around. By deconstructing gender roles and promoting a more fluid understanding of gender expression, Griffin posed a threat to the men's sense of self and the social order they had become accustomed to. The men's resistance to Griffin's perspective was evident in their defensive reactions and dismissive attitudes. Some accused Griffin of promoting an "agenda" or tried to discredit their experiences as a non-binary individual. Others clung to religious or biological justifications for traditional masculinity, unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints. Overall, the non-binary individual faced an uphill battle in trying to introduce new perspectives on gender and masculinity to a group of men who had been conditioned to uphold the very systems and beliefs that Griffin sought to dismantle. The pressure they faced stemmed from a deep-rooted fear of change and a reluctance to relinquish the perceived privileges and power associated with traditional masculine roles.

[@anukaee8520]

I don’t think a single conversation shouldn’t necessarily heal you, Gods word is true and read that

[@JayNit2]

​@@anukaee8520😒😒 there is more to life

[@user-tm5em4vu7u]

Try that with women, see how that works out! They’ll cry and start screaming right away. 😂

[@dutch160]

The guy bottom left blue shirt is the man who has changed his life the most. You can see and hear it when to talks I wish him all the good things in life.

[@James-ip8xs]

You can definitely see he has thought about himself deeply

[@davidortiz2026]

how can you tell, like what did he say?

[@eli-gabriel]

The One with the cowboy hat is my favorite

[@davidortiz2026]

@Caesar Muncada Watch the video response is so lame and overused. Can you try for once in your life to be original. I asked a simple question.

[@undercover_idiot]

@@davidortiz2026 Tahoe, has in my opinion, such a healthy view of masculinity, simply because he is secure in what he believes but is also willing to listen and empathize. It's his ability to use perspective that makes him seem like a great person.

[@Imawindybreeze]

Cowboy hat calling out the ableism was honestly the most positively surprising part of this whole video. I disagreed with a lot of his opinions up until that point but was glad that I shared that sentiment/insight with him

[@TheEverFreeKing]

Opinions you would never expect reside in the hearts of many. For instance on my right winger that affirms transgender people even though I found the non-binary person on this panel insufferable personally. I really liked the cowboy he was charming and you can feel that he's doing his best to be a good man.

[@KadarOfficial-lg2zr]

​@@TheEverFreeKingyeah I honestly don't see how men can't agree with the cowboy he seems very humble under God... Unless you are a non believer you won't understand where he's coming from 💯

[@JoeMama-gi1so]

​@@KadarOfficial-lg2zrI understand that he is coming from a place of delusion

[@Manhattan384]

@@JoeMama-gi1sowhat an inappropriate and immature response.

[@1THETUFFGUY]

the cowboy guy is the only one not confused as to what a man is! I agree that God has given men and women a position and role in the family and the best way to iive in that role! The problem now is that we have left the better way and now we are left wondering what a man is?

[@scout08713]

I want to hear Griffin, Tahoe, and James speak more! These three were so well-spoken and considerate of others' opinions. Sometimes people are given a platform and they use it poorly. These three, they could use this platform for some amazing change! Would love to see them in more things, even outside of VICE!

[@i_love_musique333]

It's so considerate to dismiss sexual assault, ye😬😬😬

[@Mr.LevelUp.]

How’s Griffin considerate? He was self absorbed and egotistical. The upside down cross is crazy as well. Bring back traditionalism

[@yeti2turnt435]

That Griffin dude did nothing but give people dirty looks and implemented an “idc about your personal experience” attitude. He was probably the lease considerate. Even more inconsiderate then the cowboy Christian who cared about nothing else besides his religion. I’d say Griffen was one of the least understanding and most inconsiderate person up there. He couldn’t agree with anyone, not even the Gay guy😂😂.

[@tiernancollins4375]

@@yeti2turnt435yeah he just wanted to be right and from his perspective he was. But couldn’t try to hear out someone else’s perspective

[@torihuerta7039]

The non-binary individual, Griffin, was trying to prove that the notion of masculinity and gender roles are social constructs that ultimately uphold patriarchal systems and oppressive power dynamics. They challenged the idea that certain traits or behaviors should be exclusively attributed to men or women, arguing that these gender norms are arbitrary and limiting. One of the main disadvantages for the other men in understanding Griffin's perspective was their deeply ingrained beliefs and experiences surrounding traditional masculinity. Many of them grew up in environments where specific gender roles were enforced, and deviating from those norms was discouraged or even punished. As a result, they struggled to separate their personal identities and values from the societal expectations placed upon them as men. Additionally, some of the men seemed to conflate masculinity with biological differences between males and females. They viewed traits like physical strength, aggression, and logical thinking as inherently masculine, rather than recognizing that these characteristics can manifest across all genders and are often shaped by cultural factors rather than biology alone. The promotion of the gender binary and stereotypes about men stemmed from a desire for stability and predictability. By adhering to prescribed gender roles, these men believed they could more easily navigate social interactions and relationships. The idea of a "real man" provided a clear set of expectations and guidelines, even if those expectations were limiting or harmful. Furthermore, some of the men derived a sense of privilege and power from traditional masculine roles. The notion of being the provider, protector, and leader within a household or society appealed to their desire for control and status. Challenging these gender norms threatened to undermine their perceived superiority and the benefits they reaped from the patriarchal system. Griffin faced pressure from these men because their perspective fundamentally challenged the ideologies and beliefs that many of the men had built their identities around. By deconstructing gender roles and promoting a more fluid understanding of gender expression, Griffin posed a threat to the men's sense of self and the social order they had become accustomed to. The men's resistance to Griffin's perspective was evident in their defensive reactions and dismissive attitudes. Some accused Griffin of promoting an "agenda" or tried to discredit their experiences as a non-binary individual. Others clung to religious or biological justifications for traditional masculinity, unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints. Overall, the non-binary individual faced an uphill battle in trying to introduce new perspectives on gender and masculinity to a group of men who had been conditioned to uphold the very systems and beliefs that Griffin sought to dismantle. The pressure they faced stemmed from a deep-rooted fear of change and a reluctance to relinquish the perceived privileges and power associated with traditional masculine roles.

[@kodzodoamekpor2387]

It would have been great to have older men (over 60) and teenage boys present. I want a part 2

[@oryxthetakenking8275]

I don't think they could've talked about sex as freely if a teenage boy was there. Dude with green eyes on the right was definitely the youngest and probably around his 20s, and fit the role of young men imo

[@sad_vegan507]

I agree but not with the teen.

[@blackflagdre6134]

Men over 60s would be looking at the panel funny, because the conversation itself has elementa of emasculating men, and men over they're 60s wouldn't tolerate a good portion of this conversation

[@yaikhonba]

Teenage boys are not men

[@maceymc.7612]

​@@blackflagdre6134 you still need an older man's opinion, because of his experience.

[@darasimiAdj68]

The black man from New York on a blue shirt is the one I loved listening to the most. He seems like someone who has experienced a lot of growth. I also loved the way he listened to everyone.

[@Moi_81]

Agreed. He was my favorite.

[@D.Zerius]

HE IS KUKING TO FEMINISTS. BLACK BETA STATUS: KUKKKKKKKKKKKKKED OUT!

[@CryingOrc1]

His name is Tahoe. Tahoe Brah, Stay Up Ma Bruh.

[@tuonabatchelor7915]

Yes, him and the girl dad in the pink shirt were my faves

[@normaldayhuman1233]

The side eyes from Griffin were absolutely everything. Loved it💀

[@i_love_musique333]

Yeah, it's so cool to dismiss liter sexual assault😍

[@Mr.LevelUp.]

Why are self righteous, egotistical and “woke” personalities always praised nowadays? That guy needed to humble himself, should’ve got someone else instead of him.

[@Chdcritser]

Really? Cause it triggered me. Everything they disagreed with was rarely discussed and was always disrespected. It’s exactly how women act when men try to tell them how we are feeling. “I was sexually assaulted at work”. “Well women have to deal with it so much more, soooooo”. It really bothered me they continued to disregard what the other men said. The gay man? He has daddy issues…. Very rude imo.

[@Tweckyy]

@@Mr.LevelUp. cuz being woke means not beeing a creepy misogynist, no wonder women praise them, what a shocker.

[@tihj3182]

The side eyes were pretty dismissive and wreak of arrogance. He was well-spoken and certainly educated, but too progressive for his own good to the point where he thought he was just there to educate everyone else.

[@hieno9014]

From a man in Asia Country, seeing those men sitting together and had a conversation even when it is uncomfortable and still open up is freakin healing and Improvement for the entire manhood in the world. We need more of this. Thank you VICE

[@bye230]

pink shirt guy looked so worried for the future of his daughters with men when he heard that guy talking about first dates 😭

[@ye.sxniaa1057]

REALL

[@ER-sj4vk]

My dad actually taught me to always bring enough money to a first date to pay for myself, but he also taught me to look for someone respectful. He would laugh his ass off at that guys comment

[@ffreshfields5211]

Facts. He was like "this guy is not good"

[@yeti2turnt435]

I think it actually brought up a good point. Its not just other men dictating what traits are considered to be masculine amongst men. Women also play a role in shaping masculinity by choosing specific traits they are attracted to in men. Everything he named on that list that are expected out of men on the first date are considered masculine traits. Women also play a role in shaping what it means to be masculine.

[@ffreshfields5211]

@@yeti2turnt435 those things are not expected on a first date unless the woman is a very shallow and materialistic type of person. Some women are like that but most women are not like that. It is not hard to choose how we want to be and not go out of our way to play into stereotypes. He is making it hard for himself. It's just the same as women who do not play into stereotypes by not buying boob jobs or lip fillers. Some women will say or believe it is expected by men to look like that but most women don't care one bit about any of that and live life their own way, define their femininity their own way, and do not bend backwards only to find validation from the wrong type of men. It's pretty simple. You actually have to go out of your way to play into shallow expectations. Being yourself is easier, unless you actively WANT to be fake and wear a mask or to seek to impress over finding a genuine connection. He could easily suggest a date of a romantic picnic by the sunset instead of dine at some glamorous pompous restaurant without thought put into it. Women hope to meet a romantic and thoughtful man. It is a matter of whether he wants to put his feet on the grass and take off his polished shoes and show his authentic self or not and whether he chooses to find a more meaningful connection or not. Some men seek power or sex or validation or what not, while many men just want to meet a compatible match with substance and someone they could really love. The latter comes with confidence and maturity

[@ozwzrd15]

Pink shirt man - clearly has spent time thinking, evolving on how to be a better man, in a non judgemental way. Most impressed with pink shirt guy

[@Lurch685]

Sounds like he got his balls chopped off, frankly.

[@MattieMacaya]

Yo same. Like I came from what I saw on tiktok but a lot of these men are pretty even keeled

[@AcidicJO]

Him, the black dude from the hood, the gay black dude, cowboy hat to a degree. They all have some past experiences, we could say trama that they are actively working through and trying their best to be good people. Not making excuses for themselves, just really trying to be a good person. I love to see that. It’s like an underlying evidence that we can overcome.

[@kaym7704]

@@AcidicJO cowboy guy? The zealot spend all his time talking about God.

[@Heyoka-gq4wl]

No tree, it is said, can grow to heaven unless its roots reach down to hell - Carl Jung

[@bryanunderhill7657]

Pink shirt at 5 minutes nailed it, we are discovering what it means to be modern man as we deconstruct our past. And blue shirt at 26.5 minutes also. Great conversation.

[@purugigi]

Please let this guy host every debate from now on. Definitely the most professional guy at Vice.

[@doby5]

Krishna is awesome !!! Very perceptive member of Vice and knows how to talk to people well. Always happy to see that fella on the Vice New. :)

[@MrCherryzz]

@@thescribe3184 You got a paint. In the last video with the feminist panel the one person that seemed calm was the one that was born a guy.

[@ttnecniv1321]

He’s always great !

[@banewillrise6818]

Of course Vice could not find 1 masculine man to show up to this clown show. Masculine men don't sit around like a bunch of women discussing masculinity.

[@IonizedComa]

@@MrCherryzz men try avoid that type confrontation of because when men fight it's not pretty. When women fight they most likely to just immediately start pulling hair

[@brendandegal9980]

"There were 20 of us on the corner, and none of us had dads." -This breaks my heart

[@jamesmitch9792]

thank neoliberalism

[@jrambo7495]

Divide and conquer. Break up the traditional family. The US GOOBERMENT is responsible for this!!

[@xMXWLx]

you must be new.

[@IHMadeThis]

@@jamesmitch9792 Thank the War on Drugs.

[@travperk]

not just 20... times that by 40 million. All around the world, all missing from action. There are a lot of corners out there

[@hollycrawford323]

I think it’s interesting how often ‘providing’, ‘responsibility’, and ‘sacrifice’ came up since these are often terms used when describing the stereotypical role of women in the household. We are all living similar lives and learning when to sacrifice and when to hold your ground for yourself

[@TheStepmonkey]

Nah, providing and responsability are terms often used for men.

[@cattleyaentrolezo2276]

@@TheStepmonkey They're the same values just done differently by both men and women, depending on the situation.

[@Amanda-hc5ld]

​@@cattleyaentrolezo2276men are provider. They provide not just for kids, the entire family under that house.

[@Black-ICE92]

Nah those terms been used describing men since civilizations started

[@MyTruth1771]

Interesting that you think that. The ideals of service, sacrifice, duty and providing have long been the manly ideals along with leadership and strength.

[@smnthdms]

as a woman, i would LOVE to 50/50 the check or take it for you! you support me, i support you! thats a relationship.

[@smnewstead4093]

A first date is not a relationship, just saying. Paying for each is fine

[@muhindorobinah7122]

I love how organised they were. Respectful, even in their differences. No rage. Respect!

[@jones2277]

there was some sassiness though.

[@pburn883]

Yea watching some of the female panels and then coming to this one theres a clear difference in how they engage their differences in views. Felt way more respectful around opposing viewpoints

[@conorfennell8475]

Agree 100 % but there was one fly in the soup who was acting as if this was a debate about men and women... they just through that person in to piss people off

[@kevinwilliams7470]

Yeah I just watched the feminist panel, and wow!!!!!!! Huge difference!

[@icebrg.]

The female version of this was wild. Men just know how to communicate respectfully.

[@yolisaxatasi3732]

More than anything, the interviewer did a really great job facilitating this session. What an informed and impartial human!

[@rukiabibi2015]

I agree,name of the interviewer

[@mrb2643]

They want you to hate being a women so you must change, and then hate you for being a man so you must now be non binary

[@JustGotSomeIdeas]

There were a lot of jump cuts

[@thecrimsondragon9744]

Krishna is decent.

[@GettingMilkSon]

Heavily edited but I do think they were pretty chill for the most part

[@Rio-uv1gs]

Having emotional energy doesn't mean being feminine. We all have emotions.

[@ginatembo8003]

The conversation is absolutely necessary. I am not a video editor by any standard but some tangents really needed to be fleshed out and I can notice when the cuts were made. Is there any way we can get an undoctored version?

[@KevenTalks]

I loved the perspective of the guy in the bottom left corner (blue shirt). He had the most open-minded, non-judgmental take, and a desire to genuinely learn what the others think.

[@alfonsomendez9787]

He’s literally the radical feminist right there. Radical, radical. I mean, maybe even misandrist.

[@KevenTalks]

@@alfonsomendez9787 Wasn't that top left corner? 😅

[@mv2530]

Yeah him and the dude with the glasses near the top left and the bearded top row dude without the cowboy hat aswell

[@mv2530]

Ig but I thought they were spitting fax tbh

[@DF-es6tx]

No he thought his way was right

[@melimelz4948]

The only Vice interview I’ve been able to stomach watching, here’s a group of men who know how to wait their turn and speak with grace. Very refreshing to see.

[@CB13212]

Men usually are better at having conversations it’s women who interrupt constantly ?? 😂

[@VOLCAL]

THANK YOU VICE FOR BEING INCLUSIVE OF ALL RCES AND GENDERS AND BEING FAIR ABOUT HOW YOU REPRESENT EVERYBODY....THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE CASE WITH THE US MEDIA FROM 1995-2017....(2 DECADES OF MEDIA SELECTIVE RCSM.)

[@ericantone8709]

@@CB13212 *Insert offensive generalization here*

[@matthewmunoz1859]

This is obviously very much edited, you can tell they were taking over each other the whole time

[@casperchristensen6451]

@@matthewmunoz1859 What are you talking about. No you can absolutely NOT tell they were talking over each other, like at all. That's either the best editing I've ever seen, or these folks were just normal, chill and respectful towards each other. Try watching it again, friend.

[@sydneybird2462]

As a modernist woman, I really enjoyed this conversation. 6:00 stuck with me because I know exactly what he's talking about. There are SO many people who truly believe that men and women need to have specific roles and act a certain way. There are women out there who will strongly judge a man if he does or says anything that could be perceived as feminine, which is so immature and stupid - he's just a person, let him be a person. Likewise, there are men who will judge a woman harshly for not wearing makeup, not dressing up, not being a homemaker, etc., generally just being a normal person and not centering their lives around appealing to men or making themselves seem attractive. We're all just people. Any mature relationship between men and women - regardless of whether it's romantic/sexual, platonic, etc. - needs to be grounded in the understanding that we're all just human beings regardless of gender. Every single thing your partner does or says is not going to be attractive, because it isn't meant to be. They're just a person living their life. Every second of a person's existence does not have to be something you find attractive.

[@philomenaphotography38]

I love seeing a good example of discussion, debate, and respect for others in a room full of people who are quite different from one another. Such a beautiful form of media and content to share with the world.

[@cualter]

As a woman, I wish the feminist debate would have proceeded as calmly and respectfully as this men's discussion did. This was a pleasure to watch and I took away some new perspectives.

[@NK_299]

Men don't argue usually they discuss and then come to conclusions!! I am thinking if there was beer or something they all would be best buddies 😅

[@jakkobg1981]

Lol you watched the same thing, man the women were all over the place it shows who can actually have a sit down and talk. No disrespect to you as a woman.

[@cualter]

@@kassiebattle8279 So what? Both are heavy topics and the format is a discussion. If anything, the women's debate was more biased towards the feminist side by sheer numbers, yet most comments I see from women claim that the panel was unfairly picked to serve some malicious agenda conspired to paint feminism in a bad light. Your reasoning sounds like a cop out. We need to hold ourselves to higher standards of debate, otherwise we'll continue to feed in to harmful gender stereotypes.

[@Deandre-gq6mg]

men aren't fighting for what they believe to be equal rights (outside of stuff like BLM, but that's not based on gender) the way women are, and the fact that the viewpoint of feminism is so divided, of course their debate would turn into a huge fight, because when you are so passionate about something, fights are going to break out during debates.

[@kassiebattle8279]

@Cu I agree the women’s debate was not much of a debate, but you can’t watch this video and say that the women should have acted the same way when the topics are very different. Masculinity isn’t political - men are not fighting for rights to their body or constantly in fear of being raped. Sure, the idea masculinity effects every man, but it is no secret that VICE literally couldn’t find an equal topic for men because there isn’t one - there aren’t any political advances that are directly attacking them.

[@KaylaJosephine]

This conversation has been good so far (I'm still watching) but I just want to say to the guys, if you can't afford a $150 date don't take the women or person you're going on a date to a restaurant that expensive. MOST women are fine just grabbing a coffee, and if they aren't then they aren't for you.

[@olaines9154]

Right!

[@caitnewbold1676]

This!! My bf (now husband) felt bad that we couldn’t afford our first date. I was like “Then don’t spend money.” So we watched the Big Bang theory and ate grilled cheeses at his apartment. We’ve been married for seven years now.❤

[@CheyanneWillingham]

Especially taking someone on a first date to a fancy place is gonna build high unrealistic expectations and if you don’t deliver on those of course the woman is gonna ghost you

[@wellhowthehellareya]

Exactly! In fact I think coffee dates take the pressure off both parties tbh. It’s cheap, it’s public, it’s casual. My ex felt so pressured to impress me with fine dining that it just became a chore to go out. I would tell him I didn’t need that nor did I want that but still it went in one ear and out the other. I felt so bad every time we’d go out and I’d even insist on paying and that just offended him. It just didn’t work out between us eventually. So I plan to only have coffee dates in the beginning and even throughout my future relationship.

[@mayz1223]

This is exactly what I was thinking. Aside from sugar relationships or other financial arrangement relationships i think anyone expecting someone to spend 150 on a first date is pretty incredulous. Ive seen the argument that girls who don't want this aren't as valuable as girls who do expect it. Or that how much money a guys spends = his interest and effort. I think both of these ideas are hurtful to everyone, men included, and cause a lot of issues in dating and building meaningful relationships with people. Most of the women I know are absolutely fine with a simple first date, because really you are just meeting up with someone to feel it out.

[@xoxochata]

the fact that teddy bear jacket only refers to grown women as GIRLS speaks a lot for his mindset lol

[@goddessahjia2623]

caught that too, seemed bored and every topic went over head

[@malmurchison3458]

We need more of these conversations, on all levels. Thank you, to everyone that participated in this project!

[@keilahdrake8412]

Casey is the kind of man that gives me hope. Now a days it’s so difficult to find a balanced relationship because there really is a masculinity crisis. This was a great conversation but I think the conversation proves this.

[@slaphappybullet]

Griffin and Tahoe were a team in the conversation and I don’t think they were fully aware of that, which made the way their points fit together all the more interesting. Their different backgrounds fleshed out their similar points to a more comprehensive presentation to the listener. Also mad respect for James, the marine with three daughters. That’s pretty much who my dad was- a guy who grew up in the machismo era, a bit sexist, also a marine, and in having three daughters, his perspective on the world flipped.

[@geniec9755]

Not you spilling

[@novelista14]

Those three really carried this for me. There were a few times when some of the others were speaking that I almost turned it off because it was cringey and frustrating.

[@pidgeon2699]

they carried frl

[@Breegan]

I feel like because of the experience Tahoe has and how fresh and young Griffin is, is what makes them so good together. Tahoe understands from his own experiences what he did wrong and he can explain it to the rest of the men in an easier explanation. I feel Griffin is sort of having a tougher time trying to explain themselves, probably because of who they are (the others thinking they have less of an opinion because of their identity, which i feel keeps happening..) but again that’s why i think they’re a great team. It seems whatever the group gets confused about what Griffin is saying Tahoes there to help and explain or “dumb it down,” for them.

[@spacebar9733]

@@Breegan yes exactly lol.

[@raccoonpunk707]

My dad spent 9 hours working, always made sure to be back for dinner. Learned to braid my hair in the evening, so my hair wouldn't be a nightmare. He cooked, cleaned, did laundry (actually taught me how to iron his work shirts) He learned to let go of toxic masculinity. And he became what i aspired to be and what i wanted in a partner.

[@neveahcarter1105]

That’s so sweet

[@hopelessromantic9342]

Same here, my dad used to do the exact same also learned how to curl my hair when I was younger, but also dealt with a lot of "manly l" stuff around teh house. Amd my mom recently got diagnosed with cancer and he basically takes care of her 24/7 and I help around the house. So yeah my dad has been the best role model for me and I look for someone like him in a relationship and fortunately I have found my bf who my dad is really proud of.

[@laurayt3]

That’s less than the bare minimum

[@et3rnalrest]

@@laurayt3then why do men have such a hard time doing what’s LESS than the bare minimum??

[@xzyeagerist1673]

@@laurayt3 sadly a lot of men can't even do that

[@i.quintanilla]

I can promise you that most women are NOT getting a million DMs all day. Or that if they do, they enjoy it. If you as a man, share your story of sexual assault and are met with derision, find someone who will have compassion and space for you. You’re not alone.

[@maliahjoy2959]

Yes!

[@ogolarickie2971]

There is nothing wrong being a man and masculine. Embrace it.

[@ArethaFrankly]

Pink shirt, blue shirt, and the non-binary person have the best minds on this panel. Overall an insightful conversation.

[@mindkiller5720]

Because they put work in who they are now, they all experiences "self crises" and they learned the right thing out of it. It's take a lot of strength to move on, from the person you was build because of environmental pressure, to become the person you finally able love in yourself.

[@WockyXSlush]

They also have the biggest propensity for mental health disorders 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 You’re also a “🙊🙊🙊🙊🙊🙊”

[@ArethaFrankly]

@@mindkiller5720 All of this. Particularly for the two men I listed, it appears to me that they have let go of this idea that to be masculine is to have dominion over others and that they are more interested in being good people and positive assets to their communities and society at large. There is also nothing more attractive to me (and I do not mean romantically or sexually) than a person who can be open and transparent about their growth and move to be a better person by releasing their egos, but also without self-flagellating and or being overly apologetic. I saw that in those two men, and I love that for them and their loved ones. That's how you heal and break generational curses.

[@justsayin7416]

I was thinking the exact same thing!! Especially considering the hyper-masculine environments they grew up in. I was especially impressed by blue shirt’s empathy and intelligence. It’s so clear that he’s put in a great deal of effort to understand himself and the world around him. So great to see.

[@ArethaFrankly]

@@justsayin7416 Agreed! And I hate to say I’m “impressed” because it sounds patronizing, but I really mean that I’m impressed because I understand what a feat it is to overcome his conditioning to talk like that. It’s one thing to question and maybe know something isn’t right. It takes a whole other level of bravery and love for the self to actually buck that conditioning and move differently. Despite myself, they’ve given me some hope that things will be better for future humans.

[@zarkiaburton4514]

The fact that they all came together to have a difficult conversation and conducted themselves so well is great progression.

[@bestjenkins2165]

Thats like saying that they are barbarians normally. Men feel more comfortable talking with other men because women can get closed off from what they are saying by the simplest of things

[@yessicastro7236]

It’s because men are logical, not emotional lol. We can agree to disagree without the need to announce it.

[@anotherday-anotherslay]

@@yessicastro7236 i'm not even going to try to unpack that statement lmfao

[@yessicastro7236]

@@anotherday-anotherslay because you cant.

[@NTEDOG561]

@@anotherday-anotherslayyea don’t

[@lancecdcw]

This conversation was amazing and should have a part 2 with the same guys plus a few more diversifying with age as well.

[@elainealmquist957]

I am actually really concerned about the Asian guy in the front. He brought up feeling pressure and not having places to turn multiple times. Can we check in on him?

[@joyedet1363]

This wasn't even a debate, it was a REAL conversation.

[@ianhansen6840]

Amen!

[@rickyy5129]

it’s crazy how much different it was to the all women panel they had

[@iren5792]

@@rickyy5129what are you trying to insinuate? Just because they had a bad panel of women doesn’t mean it reflects the whole gender 🤦🏽‍♀️

[@shutup3565]

@@rickyy5129 stfu immediately shut up this is affecting women more than it will EVER affect men. We have a right to be angry.

[@nassim-kameleddinehouha3095]

@@iren5792 no just the women one was too peesonal yk

[@JoshuaPlaysMusic]

I identify most with the Marine. I served in the US Army Infantry for 15 years and, I am a girl dad! Having a daughter taught me more about masculinity than the Army ever could have. It has taught me kindness, empathy, and that it's ok to cry.

[@garrettr3644]

I absolutely loved his perspective. I enjoy every single second that he was talking.

[@danishane5215]

Lmao thats not what you call masculinity sissy. Pride, passion and stoicism make a man

[@blank4227]

I think it actually taught you about femininity

[@ilovewarw2]

@@blank4227people avoid the troll

[@blank4227]

@@ilovewarw2you gotta be a huge troll if you think kindness, empathy, and crying are not masculine as F*CK bro... heh, wow

[@aqua1476]

I very much liked the conversation that happened here and what they had to share. I only wish there was more time allotted because some of the topics I think could have used more time for discourse. I felt they had more to say but couldn't get into it further, and I think these are topics that require more in depth discussion and details. I was very impressed with this. I loved this. In my opinion this was one of the best discussions. Incredible in my opinion and I just loved their perspectives and what they had to share. Incredible

[@dannyscottjr.7738]

I want to see more video like this where can I find them

[@itisntsoeasy3252]

I really appreciate the nonbinary person, the pink shirt guy, and the man in the blue jacket. It feels as if they're very conscious of the nuances of why women feel the way they do about met. It's very refreshing to feel heard in that way, and very hopeful as someone who lives in an area with a lot of men who act in a manner which says "I do not view you as equal to me"

[@Jeremy-wp4yh]

So what is your opinion of the cowboy hat?

[@itisntsoeasy3252]

My opinion is this: I come from a religious family with a dad with most of the same views as this guy. I see what type of person he is, and it's not somebody with malicious intent. He's somebody who derives masculinity from god, which I have no issue with. Being a stereotypically godly-masculine man is not wrong at all. I just hope that he's also the type of person to potentially be understanding if a man or woman does not fit his definition of womanly or manly and afford them the same attention and compassion as someone else. Considering he knows what toxic behavior is like, I feel like he has the capacity for that. @@Jeremy-wp4yh

[@jamesmccloud7535]

​@@Jeremy-wp4yhNegative I'm assuming 😂. In my opinion cowboy hat was based

[@lilzz-vu5lv]

@@jamesmccloud7535 actually he wasn't bad. He is basing his idea of masculinity on his religion but he didnt say other people should follow his religion or that men who are feminine shouldn't be expressing themselves in the way they want. I usually don't like Christians because a lot of them are judgemental and push their religion on other people but those who aren't are alright.

[@soobunii4871]

what about christian? (the one with a black shirt) i personally think he was one at the best at doing that

[@thegreatdeconstruction]

Protip: Don't spend $150 on a first date. Get a coffee, go dutch, do something where you can have a conversation. If you are struggling after a date then you falsely advertised yourself as a person who has $150 to spare.

[@acog_quarks8753]

If dudes going after women that expect $150 dates, then he need to either switch his standards or nut up lol

[@art4hawkeye]

exactly, why spend 150 on someone when you dont have the means anyway.

[@jerbsherb4391]

The dude was bullshiting like crazy. No way you are spending that much money unless you are going to some high-end restaurant. Also, if a person has all those expectations in the first place, then they have other agendas as well. Don't date people like that, and don't have an expectation that you will be laid that night.

[@wonderunicornninja]

Right. & even then, coffee is expensive enough as it it.

[@samiirj8414]

I agree it is his choices to spend $150 on the 1st date, you can have a perfectly fine 1st day for under $100

[@Mirro6112]

See, if you’re paying 150 for a first date, you set yourself up for problems. It’s very simple to change your dating pool.

[@deniseferron3397]

I’m a 60 year old woman, and for most of my life I’ve had men tell me that women were already equal (as far back as the 1980s all the way up to #MeToo). Hearing grown men admit to having male privilege just washed away decades of gaslighting and feels tremendously refreshing!! Thank you, gentlemen.

[@kellyfitzpatrick527]

“People have told me I have BDE” THE CUT TO GRIFFIN’S FACE DESERVES AN EMMY

[@aaaa.789]

when was that did i miss it 😞

[@surrealhope7635]

Around 36:42 😭

[@ye.sxniaa1057]

REALLLL IT WAS SO FUNNY

[@MsParty216]

Like nobody told you that Sir! Lol

[@BuffaloWings505]

😂@15:50 He complains about basic manners like opening door, walking on the road side of side walk, making sure she's homed safe etc. Ain't no way anyone is saying this dude has BDE 💀

[@alexanderavanth]

I’d love to see this topic explored outside the US. There are many nuances to this topic when changing the cultural context.

[@ingmarsjansons3665]

Totally agree. As I guy who comes from post Soviet state and last 14 years living in Denmark where I met different guys from different countries, I can say, there are big differences between attitudes, beliefs and ways, man expreses them selves.

[@Lisa-zi6hb]

@@ingmarsjansons3665 I don’t think Slavic men for example would have preferred to not pay on the first date😂

[@ingmarsjansons3665]

@@Lisa-zi6hb yeah, in Latvia 🇱🇻 where I come from its normal when man pays for dates and so on, also usually man is the one who invites girl out, so to ask to pay would be very weird. But in Denmark 🇩🇰 when I've been on dates with local girls, they offer to share half and some of them even don't want to accept situation where I pay all the bill and it feels awkward for me...

[@Zejva]

@@Lisa-zi6hb not all post Soviet countries are slavic majority-

[@Kimmy234L]

Totally agree!

[@Ophelia11]

As a woman, watching this was very insightful! It was nice to hear a diverse panel of men speak freely on the topic of masculinity. I feel like all of them made good points.

[@diana1rondon]

With all these different strands of people being able to talk about things like this is great to get new view points, and the man in the blue jacket genuinely has all my respect, a hard working man with a family, who has pride but doesn’t let it drown out that understanding and connection.

[@sejutibarua930]

Griffin calling out the other dude's daddy issues and ending it by muttering "Freud" is peak comedy for me 💀

[@sarahwhite6622]

😂 exactly baby on the end needs therapy. Or knows that they can't use this "idea" to justify why they need sugar daddies. Like honey you making it too deep.

[@Evitaschannel]

The guy was so touchy and definately got triggered by just hearing the word "freud"

[@juankusoff]

It’s typical female behaviour. That’s why you like it.

[@gdroz1927]

But what he said was true tho ;-; don’t we all define our standards, wants and needs from a partner based on our life experiences and what we like and don’t like. Isn’t that why everyone is so diverse in the dating world. We all don’t like the same type of people for a reason. I can go out on a date with a guy and not like him at all and then set him up with a friend and she adores him. I wonder how & where griffins preference in a person came to be? It’s all subjective at the end of the day. Griffin seemed a little toxic and when it came to some men on the board he invalidated their experiences and feeling which when you listen carefully all of these men came to agree that part of toxic masculinity root is men not being able to be open or speak about their experiences or feelings.

[@elfullin]

@@gdroz1927possibly, but he wasn’t saying that having those preferences due to our past experiences is a wrong statement, he said it’s important to understand why we have those preferences. There is a reason the dating world is filled with people with baggage, because they haven’t done the work of understanding themselves, and it ends up hindering the relationship in the future which I believe is a huge contributor to cheating and also divorce.

[@SeriouslySteyn]

These guys really made me proud. Complete different types, and they 95% respectfully discussed a lot of topics.

[@blank4227]

they were almost entirely all the same type of guy

[@Ballum4114]

@@blank4227 they were very diverse…

[@blank4227]

@@Ballum4114 I suppose they all wore different shirts and shoes yeah

[@spurdosparde1355]

​@@blank4227We have a christian cowboy, asian fitness coach, a non-binary person - a homosexual black guy, a retired US marine, someone who grew up in the hood, an asian new yorker, and an ghenian american. This is a very diverse lineup in my opinion

[@blank4227]

@@spurdosparde1355 It's really cool that they all wear fun little costumes but they never ended up seriously disagreeing on any topic. Only one of the Asian guys (the one on front) had anything interesting to say and they barely let him speak.

[@AshleyNeshea]

This definitely needs a part 2

[@marcomedina5344]

How do you become involved in these conversations on vice?

[@SARAHizROCKIN]

Griffin's facial reactions to some of what they were saying were killing me 😂

[@maeheminger6035]

i loved watching them cuz i was making those same faces💀

[@christinawolf2407]

Me too.

[@aspebb]

Why was a non-binary person there in a discussion for men?

[@inni_k7767]

​@@aspebb i can see how it can be weird, but as an afab non binary person i feel the need to be included in conversations about being a woman because i was most of my life socialized like that and i can see the situation from outside and from inside. Some people still think i'm a woman so i still can have those experiences. I think it's the same

[@BigTroubleD]

@@aspebbI appreciated the non binary person SO MUCH. They made some very very important points where it’s about being a morally decent person not just because you’re a man.

[@theg-master9831]

Nothing is more masculine then all these guys having a respectable brainstorm/debate. They're all calm and reasonable, well spoken and they all look like they take care of them selves. Good one dudes!!! Succes in life

[@pankyrangful]

The non binary was passive aggressive af with some of they're responses and body language

[@aaronayy]

​@MuhammadHassan-hi6fc your proof toxic masculinity is still so prevalent and harmful

[@aaronayy]

​@@pankyrangfulI don't think they were necessarily passive aggressive they stated every time they disagreed in a respectable manner

[@Aliesm90]

Watch the female. Cats & comments are turned off 😂

[@GR8119]

The trans dude was ready to fight whenever "woman" was mentioned. He wasn't listening, just waiting for them to stop talking so he could disagree.

[@laydeemya8932]

This was such a good conversation amongst men, I really enjoying hearing their different thoughts and perspective although they were different I could agree with them all on some level.

[@violet.r7286]

When *weakness* and *vulnerability* are CONFLATED and CONFUSED, so many issues follow. Men should be able to be vulnerable-- without confusing it for weakness. This was an excellent debate/conversation, with an excellent range of diverse individuals. I feel like they did a good job incorporating a fairly decent cross-section of the vast population in the US, representing a range of perspectives. However, these are very broad topics to discuss and explore, thus making it very difficult to condense such a huge conversation (involving so many people) into such a limited time frame. I would really like to see a longer form of this conversation, with these same guys, where they can really dive in to the topics and questions! Such vast, broad topics and questions really need time to be broken down and explored thoroughly.. and to allow everyone in the panel the opportunity to contribute. Overall, this was well done and I enjoyed watching/listening to this!!

[@ThoughXperiment]

Tahoe, a freaking King, a man man, a guy who knows who he is, a guy willing to see beyond his own existence and feel empathy, capable to growth and rise above. That's what we women respect and love.

[@kapsaucy6590]

Is empathy an ability or an action?

[@ThoughXperiment]

@@kapsaucy6590 I believe it's a choice. Even if science shows that empathy it's a developed ability, in my opinion this ability, as any other ability, requires thoughts and actions, hence, it's a choice.

[@MyTruth1771]

Women favor men like Tahoe because he has learned to say the things women like to hear. He's attuned to this, especially because he's momma raised. Look at the time where he said "especially us who grew up in a super masculine house". He just made that up because previously he said he grew up without a father in the house. Then later he talked about feeling like he has to perform for women. But the pink shirt guy and the Cowboy hat guy are the kind of men that are the foundations of society.

[@mattias5157]

A symp I guess? No you don't. You praise them with you mouth but cheat on them with bad guys. A well known fact. Few men are fooled by what you say anymore, hence the decline on the dating market. I'm sorry sis, those days are gone.

[@ZelgiusK]

in some things yeah, but he touched the topic of "we as men choosing or deciding what women do with their bodies" refering to let them kill their offspring, it is a no no for me, so, not a true King if he let his offspring to be killed. But yeah, he is spot on, on many topics, good guy for sure.

[@katelynwhite100]

The veteran exudes personal growth and is incredibly inspiring

[@DChris3]

Definitely. Strong father. That muppet with the bleached hair rolling his eyes every five seconds had me laughing tho hahaha

[@yikes710]

100%, at first I totally thought he was going to give off "I need the skyman to be a man" vibes like the cowboy, but he was actually quite a stand up individual and is probably a great father.

[@matteframe]

Fitness guy exudes incredible posture

[@alijibran3255]

@@yikes710 I personally am an atheist but your response in demeaning a persons viewpoint into a pathetic straw man means you should probably rewatch the video .

[@Steven19886]

@@yikes710 Why did you think that at first?

[@camiloinda]

Nice to hear this kind of debates!

[@Kingx90]

Notice how when the one guy opened up about his sexual assault at work no one cares? That’s the response we always get. Not an ounce of empathy.

[@Dolphinboi]

Men literally will make jokes about other men being sexually assaulted. Y’all don’t really care

[@Kingx90]

@@Dolphinboithat’s my point, no one cares.

[@AlkiraArt]

and the lack of empathy that men shows To things like that is Concerning

[@Kingx90]

@@AlkiraArtcorrect, the lack of empathy that everyone shows is concerning

[@Pistolita221]

It's not just men who don't care about female on male SA. Try getting a feminist to admit it's equally wrong and hurtful, 70%+ will deny it. @@AlkiraArt

[@pmarie72742]

We need part two with these same men. This was extremely interesting, especially as a woman.

[@sad_vegan507]

Same

[@sad_vegan507]

Griffin is a rock star

[@MrTrigz]

What did u take from it

[@pmarie72742]

@@MrTrigz check on your man and other men that you know. I had no idea they thought this way, and that’s sad bc I should have known the men in my life better. Check on your guys mental well being, not just your man but every man you know. ❤️

[@loveisthemostpowerfulforce1397]

I'm curious to know your perspective. What are masculine traits that masculine man would have? Both personality and physicality wise.

[@realm3164]

As a therapist who is dealing with these issues in my self and in my clients. This is one of the best conversations I've seen on the topic.

[@monsieurimhim6147]

A therapist is a puppet of Satan

[@O.A.F_B.A.S.E]

Hmmmmm......lmfao

[@zeenuf00]

It's people like you who destroyed western culture

[@torihuerta7039]

The non-binary individual, Griffin, was trying to prove that the notion of masculinity and gender roles are social constructs that ultimately uphold patriarchal systems and oppressive power dynamics. They challenged the idea that certain traits or behaviors should be exclusively attributed to men or women, arguing that these gender norms are arbitrary and limiting. One of the main disadvantages for the other men in understanding Griffin's perspective was their deeply ingrained beliefs and experiences surrounding traditional masculinity. Many of them grew up in environments where specific gender roles were enforced, and deviating from those norms was discouraged or even punished. As a result, they struggled to separate their personal identities and values from the societal expectations placed upon them as men. Additionally, some of the men seemed to conflate masculinity with biological differences between males and females. They viewed traits like physical strength, aggression, and logical thinking as inherently masculine, rather than recognizing that these characteristics can manifest across all genders and are often shaped by cultural factors rather than biology alone. The promotion of the gender binary and stereotypes about men stemmed from a desire for stability and predictability. By adhering to prescribed gender roles, these men believed they could more easily navigate social interactions and relationships. The idea of a "real man" provided a clear set of expectations and guidelines, even if those expectations were limiting or harmful. Furthermore, some of the men derived a sense of privilege and power from traditional masculine roles. The notion of being the provider, protector, and leader within a household or society appealed to their desire for control and status. Challenging these gender norms threatened to undermine their perceived superiority and the benefits they reaped from the patriarchal system. Griffin faced pressure from these men because their perspective fundamentally challenged the ideologies and beliefs that many of the men had built their identities around. By deconstructing gender roles and promoting a more fluid understanding of gender expression, Griffin posed a threat to the men's sense of self and the social order they had become accustomed to. The men's resistance to Griffin's perspective was evident in their defensive reactions and dismissive attitudes. Some accused Griffin of promoting an "agenda" or tried to discredit their experiences as a non-binary individual. Others clung to religious or biological justifications for traditional masculinity, unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints. Overall, the non-binary individual faced an uphill battle in trying to introduce new perspectives on gender and masculinity to a group of men who had been conditioned to uphold the very systems and beliefs that Griffin sought to dismantle. The pressure they faced stemmed from a deep-rooted fear of change and a reluctance to relinquish the perceived privileges and power associated with traditional masculine roles.

[@zeenuf00]

@torihuerta7039 no one in western culture is insisiting that certain behaviors or representations be exclusively attributed to men or women. This is what woketarda do - they base their entire paradigm on unfalsifiable assertions . And not only that - the lgbtqxyz world actually reinforces the so-called oppressive social constructs that it claims to dislike.

[@MCUBED77]

I love the conversations this incited…I appreciated Tahoe and James’ perspectives so much! In that they’re both men who are evolving, comfortably or otherwise, but willing to understand and be better for the people in their lives and that’s impressive af…hopefully they became friends after this, they seem like kindred spirits.

[@sethdaniels4410]

Dude at the beginning quoting spider-man is crazy 😂

[@snejjankhahcbcrew9347]

If you spend 150 on a date and next week you are broke then the problem is not the girl ghosting you, it's you being irresponsible with money and live on top of your financial means. If you can't afford a 150 dollars date, there is nothing wrong, a date does not have to cost that, you can have a walk in a park , take a coffee etc. Same goes for a girl, she should not go out on a date if she can't afford to pay the bill. Just stick with your possibilities people.

[@apple3354]

abe then the girl should pay for her own food..

[@susannehuber3996]

Correct. You could cook for her or do a Picknick in the park. Also if you take me to a super expensive restaurant I’m not paying YOU CHOSE THE RESTAURANT NOT ME.

[@snejjankhahcbcrew9347]

@@susannehuber3996 Of course. The one choosing the date pays. I don't understand these people spending more than they can afford just to impress, it does not make sense, and is actually a turn off for me because if you bring me to a place which is not on your budget just to impress me, actually I will think that you are financially irresponsible, which is not cool.

[@PrincessJewels08]

It just goes to show that men think throwing money at women equals an obligation on the women’s part to give them what they want. The point of taking someone on a date is the spend time and see if there is a connection. If she doesn’t feel it then she has the right to move on, no matter how much the guy chooses to spend

[@dead7781]

Always the guy's fault...

[@mactherealestateman]

I like the fact that these men let each other talk. You learn more from listening. Overtalking never works. There is no 1 answer. Even as a Christian, that doesn't always mean you wont ever get confused. Who we are changes everyday.

[@marrokraff998]

Except the gender bender! He had most conflicts with everyone else! The gay guy, the Asian dude with the business and the Christian cowboy. He took everything out of context and threw shade. Ironically the hood guy and the military guy were the most sensitive. Probably a combination of trauma situations and having daughters.

[@VarunK-ii8eb]

Because there are no women.

[@stoningupper]

​@@marrokraff998I think the commie shouldn't have been there since they don't wanna be a man

[@jasonfuentz4282]

Oh. look the incel brigade.

[@VarunK-ii8eb]

@@jasonfuentz4282 aww sad femcel.

[@AshleyNeshea]

This is a really great discussion.

[@nf9917]

Pink collar shirt and blue jean shirt great insight. The entire panel is worth the time spent. Thank you

[@connor2205]

" Vulnerability for men is often times viewed as surrender " I felt this immediately

[@HonkHonkler]

Because it IS

[@aguyinlove]

If men were vulnerable like you girls are saying "is okay", humanity wouldn't have reached these heights. We need support, not help.

[@andreionac1109]

It's normal to be vulnerable sometimes, just don't stay that way

[@heathersmith9262]

@@aguyinlove okay... sorry, may I ask what is the difference between support and help? Because usually they go hand in hand and yes, women need to facilitate that being vulnerable is human and is just fine coming from a man. But please this was an interesting statement and I want to know more... how do I be a better support to those in my life or those that may enter my life?

[@TelzAll]

Change that midnset. Some of y'all are mentally ill and murderous simply from rejection. That's not okay.

[@telhado55]

This panel was fantastic. Adults talking and giving each other some space and respect to have decent conversations.

[@brucethedawg]

Very different than the debate about femininity

[@abnerrenaud6768]

​@@brucethedawg bruh, was about to say that 😂😂😂😂

[@zinazina6367]

For sure!

[@zinazina6367]

​@@brucethedawgYessssss I totally agree!

[@TangiersIntrigue]

I absolutely loved the takes of the hood guy. And I loved even more to see the synergy between him and non-binary person. I admire and applaud the fact that he took the time and dedication to learn more and be respectful. He was leagues away from the person he started out being.

[@Meo9131]

See I love conversations like this! We don't have to agree on everything but at least have mutual respect.

[@SerenityHaes]

If I were to only contribute one thing to a conversation like this I would say that I feel like the root of all of these issues is just insecurity. If you’re not sure of who you are, what you are, and what you want to represent then that causes us to be insecure. The real issue I think is just that not a lot of us have that conversation with ourselves so we tend to try and follow what is “the norm”. You can be whoever or whatever you want it is completely up to you, the reason why we feel like we can’t is because we care what others opinions of us are. If we were all secure people with a clear vision of who we are then societal norms wouldn’t affect us. We wouldn’t be afraid to be outside of any box or stay solid in a belief/opinion. If someone didn’t like you you’d be able to say okay that’s totally fine have a good life and I will continue to live how I feel is right. And that would be it, no debate no hurt feelings. (If you’re in an environment where it isn’t safe to be who you are then thats a little different of course and all you can do is try to leave that space) You have the ability to choose who you interact with/how you interact. So once you have that clear vision of who you are spend your time with people who encourage it. Understand that others won’t always agree and appreciate that. That’s what makes us all so amazing. We’re all so different and as long as none of us are hurting each other mentally or physically I think finding that peace is attainable. If you don’t know who you are, making steps to figure that out is the only way you’ll make a change in your life. Watch KZbin videos, go to therapy, start journaling, make goals, find a role model, read books on personal growth ect. There are ways to figure it all out it just depends on how much effort you put in. Take care of your body and emotional state. As long as you’re moving forward even if it’s just a step, you’re doing something right.

[@meelahmak]

i think insecurity in adults stems from a disconnect between parent and child. across all classes.

[@melissaflowers5505]

It's comforting seeing some of the older men who have gained empathy & whose minds have changed with age & experience

[@zinazina6367]

For sure.

[@lsdiesel8025]

I know it’s happened for me. Growing up in the 80s in the USA I know I had been taught what people call toxic masculinity by society & now that I live outside the country I’ve been able to shed a lot of that. It’s refreshing to hear other men being able to reflect on their upbringing & learned behaviours that we can mature out of.

[@D.Zerius]

THEY ARE BOOMER CUCKS. THEY ARE: KUKKKKKKKKKKKKKED OUT!

[@maeheminger6035]

i feel like whoever figured out the seating arrangement before this event did really well and i think that contributed to how well this conversation flowed. i feel like if some of these people who are across the room from each other might not have felt open to talking if they were sat next to each other. 👏

[@Pistolita221]

I appreciate you not naming Griffin and Christian specifically.

[@quelmix9902]

@@Pistolita221 lol but u did

[@Pistolita221]

@@quelmix9902 I'm not that big of a person.

[@evapatsellee]

@@Pistolita221 LMAO exactly

[@cantagiousca5220]

That's America for you,none of this group have a single man in ,all gay lords

[@jonathanhnunez]

Creating a highly controversial video on currently questionable topics without including any older gentlemen on the panel seems quite deliberate.

[@calenamahardja4467]

Beautiful conversation. Thank you for this piece. ❤

[@JoeHertler]

This host was thoughtful and patient. Did a great job, seemingly, at making everyone feel comfortable to express themselves; he made them feel like their thoughts of the subject mattered. He didn’t condescend or patronize. We’re all humans and we only really know what we know - and exploring tough subjects through honest conversation may the best way to learn and grow.

[@isaiahfrazier9167]

Well said Joe! Sending you and your the family my best!

[@dubonkies]

A pleasant surprise seeing you in these comments haha! You’re a legend man. Love your music 🤙

[@jasonstevens3071]

True, but he also allowed certain opinions to be expressed as if they were fact without challenging them.

[@R_A_3000]

@@jasonstevens3071 Like which ones?

[@jasonstevens3071]

@@R_A_3000 - (1) 15:12 - Griffin said, "Men experience oppression based on the intersection of their identities." - What does that even mean? Can we clarify that? Why was that idea accepted as fact without being clarified or challenged? (2) 20:00 - Christian said, "Men have more sex, men cheat more, they have more affairs." Says who? In 2023, women are more promiscuous than they've ever been. (3) - 21:29 - Dillon said that men invalidate other men's experiences with being victims of sexual assault. That may be true, but women do that also. I've had men call my manhood into question, but I've never had anyone challenge my manhood more so that my own wife. Women minimize the masculinity of men ALL THE TIME. (4) 20:45, 22:22, & 23:03 - When they were saying there is a double standard that exists in the area of sexual assault, and that men can't complain about life's difficulties, Paul was explaining the pressures of being a man, and how if a man can push through, he can be successful. Griffin asked, 23:24 "What does that have to do with being a man?" Sure, women also have life's pressures too, but they didn't acknowledge the fact that society does expect men to do things that they don't expect women to do. Men are expected to be altruistic in ways that women are not. When crisis occurs, men are expected to sacrifice their lives to protect women and children. Women aren't expected to do that. If a ship is sinking, women and children will be allowed to take their places on life boats first. Men will only be allowed to do so AFTER women and children. And if men don't behave this way, their manhood is called into question. They glossed right over that. There were just a lot of gaps in this conversation. I mean, it was good, but it wasn't thorough enough for me.

[@usethis4511]

“Oh this sucks I have to pay, oh this sucks I might get murdered” I screamed lmaooo

[@tonyonaperky2128]

That's non comparable. He used the wrong compatibility.. as we have to be careful from women as well. So your screaming was for the wrong reason

[@usethis4511]

@@tonyonaperky2128 Wth are you talking about?

[@lildel7698]

Men get set up by women all the time

[@lildel7698]

Most men aren’t trying to go to jail for a girl they just met

[@usethis4511]

@@lildel7698 I’m aware, but it has happened and continues to happen.

[@hopskip1746]

Is there a plan for a part two, with the same panel? This was amazing- all in all these are good people w growth and just a willingness to discuss, to share perspectives and to even civilly offer counter perspectives

[@brianamichelle9024]

Wowww, I wish this was longer!!!! ✨✨

[@kaifogelquist6134]

4:55 Is there a crisis in masculinity and what is toxic masculinity? 9:23 Dads, families, and the gender binary 15:33 Dating 20:13 Me too movement 24:04 Friendship 26:09 Performing for women, societal acceptance, and loving yourself 30:37 being hella tall and ripped bro 36:29 Big dick energy 39:08 Is masculinity inherently violent?

[@eterna1flame]

You’re awesome

[@Anteater01]

Thank you

[@Someoneelsegotmyname]

Tahoe sounds like a genuinely great human being. If his upbringing and early life was as bad and he was as bad as he made it sound like, he should be really proud of who he is now.

[@craigandnem4597]

Tahoe is confused. He’s not a Tahoe, he’s more like a Dotson B210

[@kittik3416]

This is beautiful. What a lovely, diverse group and a safe space to express themselves. Thank you.

[@isaacdorue]

Have a feeling pink shirt and blue jacket could become best friends for life

[@drilltimebyperryb3310]

To the dude spending $150 when you don’t have it … that’s your damn fault 😂

[@tayabone8633]

Yes, he doesn't seem to have a sense of identity, to be honest

[@angela-donna3332]

Yes wth

[@EnidWellness]

Right! I was so confused by his complaining 🎻

[@KadarOfficial-lg2zr]

He gotta get outta be York

[@strictnine5684]

No it isn’t.

[@cadencasey7233]

Fantastic debate. It's important to hash these things out with people from diverse backgrounds and world views. The non-binary person was in a tough position because every other opinion was very different to theirs but I'm very glad they were there to express their thoughts too.

[@monkieri2]

I think that's because as a gender non conforming person you already need to have so many conversations and reflections about the meaning and place of gender and masculinity, they're basically lightyears ahead of the men in the room. Trans people are experts.

[@Pistolita221]

@@monkieri2 In my experience, most of the trans community takes the radfem perspective on men/masculinity which many, many men find so reductive and generalized it's absolutely useless. They talk around issues but never approach them from a masculine persons perspective. So while they may understand femininity better, they definitely don't understand masculinity.

[@i_love_musique333]

Their thoughts being dismissal of anything that men said, including literal sex assault

[@i_love_musique333]

​@@monkieri2They're so "lightyears ahead" they just casually dismissed anything that men said, including literal sexual assault Typical progressive😍

[@ffreshfields5211]

@@i_love_musique333 I did not hear them speaking against or unsupportively towards sexual assault experienced by men. Where?

[@lindsayskala9265]

As a 40 year old woman, I would love to have this conversation with men like this. I have a much different perspective and opinion on all of these subjects.

[@jirensentry7609]

The eye contact lol. @15:27 LOL

[@rik.writing.roughly3058]

So much respect for the Marine. I served in the Corps as a young man, and being in a hyper masculine sphere makes you a toxic man, because he who fights beasts, must be one to survive. The man who grew up in the hood captured that in it’s perfect essence when he talked about being around other tough guys on the block. He grew as a person, accepted his own problems, and took responsibility to act better than he used to be. Mad respect for you sir, I strive to be better than I used to be, and to become more compassionate. Thanks for showing that it is possible to be a man, and to show empathy. Semper gumbi

[@leondavid8128]

The “hood” guy talked on and on about “the patriarchy” and how men had all of this power……….then he revealed that he and all of his friends grew up without fathers. Whatever toxic behavior he learned and misconceptions about what masculinity and manhood was, came about as a result of growing up in a pseudo matriarchy where single mother female led homes are the norm. He’s just been brainwashed to think that only men have power and are toxic

[@rayala111]

The Marine has a great perspective and has really taken a lot from his life experiences. Great contribution to the conversation.

[@warmonger82]

Fellow crayon eater here with three words The Great Santini Best movie ever made about these issues

[@sotetsotetsotetsotetsotet2379]

Imagine calling people living in a village in a random village, driven to self defence because a global superpower decided they wanted some oil from your garden, beasts.

[@moonysteps8064]

Good luck with your work on yourself!

[@hershe782005]

That man expressed when he was sexually harassed and those two men devalued his experience because it "happens more to women." That struck me

[@Pistolita221]

Super common for men, in all situations.

[@starscream6629]

Typically toxic feminized men who were raised to put women foremost. They aren’t there as representing manhood they are there to represent women as an “ally”. They always speak to undermine men as well in their language.

[@kerryberry___]

Yes! That upset me because that was the point he was trying to make.

[@coahomma6794]

That's sick.. What happened to him matters!

[@Stormsong93]

Yup they straight up proved his point right then and there without realizing it.

[@Mark-fn8bc]

I believe that the conversation not only gave a better understanding of masculinity and gender roles but exposed falsities a stigma attached to being a man. Appreciated this convo❤️ We need more of this..

[@almightyace3581]

That was strangely great I was expecting arguments I loved how there was disagreements but they kept the conversation I just wish I could see the full conversation without cuts

[@belogikal]

I love this discussion. At moments you can see realization in their faces about certain things they're battling with that another seems to have a different perspective on, and that's a beautiful thing. Please keep this discussion going, even if it's a different group of people! These are pivotal topics to be talking about in an open environment.

[@avateraangshoe5025]

14:37 "Well if you believe that God is true-" "-I don't." I'm a Christian but that part had me dyinnnn😭😭😭

[@greyiris906]

Yahayayay hi fellow christian, I hardly see anyone who is commenting so

[@songrogu7801]

Doesn't believe in god but wears an upside down cross.....i can't i just can't, i'm not very religious but if the devil exist god also exist

[@father6760]

​@@songrogu7801 the upside down cross is Saint Peter's cross tho

[@CosmicHowlerx]

@@songrogu7801 What’s wrong with accessories lol

[@beestings22]

@@songrogu7801 satanists don’t believe in the devil

[@alekyanarne9840]

this was such a great discussion