Why Did Marika Shatter The Elden Ring?

[@spudthepug]

A thought occurred to me. Goldwyn was the only normal child Marika gave birth to. The other two with Godfrey were Omens and the two she had with Radagon were cursed.

[@ballsballsballs3617]

😂and godwyn got jumped by 12 black knifes

[@sorcierenoire8651]

@@ballsballsballs3617 the other perfect candidate was Ranni but she had her own plans and killed herself. Pitiful Queen Marika.

[@girlscarf]

@@sorcierenoire8651 I actually think Marika was behind the night of the black knives and was willing to sacrifice Godwyn. Being the vessel of the Elden Ring seems like the most horrible fate where you have no autonomy and must adhere to the greater will. Not wanting her daughter Ranni to be subjected to the same fate, and wanting to break free from the greater will, she betrayed Maliketh by helping Ranni acquire the rune of death and shattering the Elden Ring.

[@potatertotes]

@@girlscarf Ranni is Rennala and Radagon's daughter though.

[@dandelion3330]

@@potatertotes but isn't Radagon one entity with Marika ?

[@Niespe99]

There is also the dialogue of Gideon about the "feelings of the queen might be justified" when you reveal him that Miquella was kidnapped by Mogh. I feel that implies one of two things 1. She indeed loved her sons very much and loosing a second one was too much 2. both Godwyn and Miquella had the potential to remake the order into a more virtous state, but both of them disappearing means there is no hope for her to be free from the Greater Will...unless she shatters the ring herself

[@Niespe99]

the original quote from Gideon: "So. The Haligtree, now but a husk... I heard speculation Miquella embedded himself in the Haligtree, but before he could finish, someone cut the tree open and absconded with his infant form. Indeed, it seems those words held weight. How vexing. That the All-knowing didn't have the full story... Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified... Ah, my apologies. Lost myself, for a moment there. The information you've shared is of great value"

[@samf.s.7731]

I thought that was about putting Mohg in the shunning grounds...

[@nelson_rebel3907]

@@samf.s.7731 That has no relation or mention to mogh

[@NeedsContent]

I always thought that Mohg stealing Miquella happened after The Shattering, but I guess I don't really know.

[@d0nner96]

The issue I have is what Gideon says when we fight him. "The Queen wants us to keep struggling... For eternity". Seems like Marika justs wants chaos or destruction. Corrupted by the Three Fingers and their Frenzied Flame? They are below the capital after all.

[@herb9838]

My only issue with the idea that the shattering of the ring was an impulsive, emotion-driven decision by Marika comes from some of Melina's dialogue. On the battleworn outskirts of Leyndell, between the inner and outer walls, she recalls Marika's "spoken echoes that linger". Marika says: "Hear me, Demigods, my children, beloved. Make of thineselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But if thou shouldst fail to become ought at all, ye will be forsaken, amounting only to sacrifices." ...Which is what happens, the tarnished comes and kills the demigods to take their great runes. Now, if the spoken echoes are lingering on the outskirts, it means Marika must have spoken those words in that location. Which means it must have been said prior to the shattering of the ring, because she was imprisoned inside the Erdtree immediately after she shattered it (and so wouldn't have been able to go to the outskirts to say this). So it looks to me like shattering the ring wasn't an impulsive decision, but rather that Marika is playing some kind of 4D chess that I can't fully grasp.

[@samf.s.7731]

Yep, the exile of Godfrey and his warriors spoken through her dialogue also clearly indicates "she" planned this. I am only putting this in parenthesis because I am aware of Radagon's existence and the fact that this could just be a trans gentleman or a non binary individual. Fascinating character, NGL.

[@abstractnonsense3253]

Maybe she was trying to dismantle the ring to learn how it works and try to bring back her son with that knowledge.

[@IndestructibleWebseries]

Did she speak these words before or after the Shattering? If after, then it's part of her plan to defeat the Elden Beast, methinks. If before, well, it makes less sense.

[@glasgowblackchigowski6117]

I mean it might have still been an impulsive decision that was delayed for a period of time, there was almost certainly an unrest in the lands between after the rune of death was compromised and Godwyn's death, perhaps Marika was kept assured that this matter would be figured out and set right by her household and order, that's when she probably started harboring doubts about the order and its seemingly incredible power, she would have then started to talk down to them one by one until she just throws it all away by shattering the elden ring through sheer grief and doubt.

[@chase755]

‘

[@Nemo12417]

It should be noted that when you first meet Ranni in game, she calls herself "Renna", and if you meet her officially through following Rogier's questline, Rogier will be surprised to learn that she is inhabiting a doll. She is so open to you because if you come to her tower, she knows you probably know about the Night of Black Knives and sees no point in playing dumb.

[@sugoi9680]

Me who saw a random tower and went in to loot it...

[@zakzerak7191]

@@sugoi9680 Me who proceeds to be frustrated by her first objective completly forgetting about her for the rest of my playthrough

[@sugoi9680]

@@zakzerak7191 The best ending

[@AALion2004]

@@Nemo12417 to be fair by this point society has collapsed in the lands between and the golden order is barely alive and functioning so that's why she's okay with telling the Mc everything about what she did there's no one really left to do anything about it anymore so no need to keep secrets when the demigods and Marika are not much of a thing or council anymore. of course if this was pre shattering Ranni she wouldn't tell you a thing since she would've been in far more trouble if her plan was found out wish they could've made a time travel Dlc or some parts included time travel where plot twist we the player actually inadvertently made things the way they are

[@aSSGoblin1488]

@@sugoi9680 got locked in the frenzy ending...

[@wildbard4112]

Whatever her plan was it must have been truly horrifying. Gideon saw Marika's will and it scared him. "At the end that should not be".

[@juice2307]

Perhaps she wished for the Frenzy ending? The death of her son caused her to wish for everything to burn as a giant act of revenge against everything and everyone.

[@wildbard4112]

@@juice2307 Gideon did say Marika wanted us to "struggle for eternity". What it means exactly is unclear but for certain it's not genocide

[@eprimchad2576]

I know this is late to the party but i think what he glimpsed is what we already know. He realized marika wanted to burn the tree, destroy the golden order and start over completely new. Gideon is clearly a very strong believer in the greater will, upon glimpsing into marikas plan he simply refused to believe what he was seeing, so he convinced himself it just couldnt happen. If you cant kill a god and marikas plan is to be killed, she must just want the tarnished to fight and get stronger forever.

[@Gaarkukan21]

My theory is that she wants to change the Lands Betweens rule into something more akin to a dynastic cycle. Her relationship with her husband makes me feel she wanted Godfrey to defeat Radagon and take over after her fall. Her dialogue of encouraging all her family to fight eachother for their beliefs sort of reminds me of Ubermensch with this idea of individualism being above all. Godfrey himself in a way is super individualistic as he only sees Serosh as a facade of his true self, Hoarah Loux.

[@Integritys_Sum]

The "Animal" is what people pretend to be, and the "real" you is the savage beast underneath. How incredibely Ba'al Cycle of them, someone call Ashtoreth and her rebirthing lordling..

[@easye4329]

I think its also worth noting that the choice of demigod for Ranni's assassination is significant. Consider who Godwyn was in the lore. Aside from the prodigal son uncursed etc etc. He was also really popular and beloved within and outside the Golden Order. He was such a perfect son of the Golden Order that Fortisaax, a former enemy tried to save him from the death root. And Miquella the "most fearsome emperion" tried to give him a true death out of respect. So why would Ranni hate him enough to go to all this trouble to murder him? I think, the implications from her questline suggest she was due for an arranged marriage to Godwyn. And since her father was Radagon perhaps it was arranged before he left to become Elden lord. Or if it was just before or after he left, then it would serve as a political marriage to unite the Carian house and golden order after his marriage doing the same, fell through. Ranni being a princess in a matriarchal kingdom would probably object to having her potential as a Moon Queen of Caria being tossed aside to be the wife of the favorite son and literal red headed stepchild. Marika who probably was overjoyed at her golden order now having a successor Emperion married to her first son, it gives her a lineage of succesion and a direct successor in the form of her new daughter in law ranni. Probably saw everything fall apart all at once and said screw it breaking this shit now! Which would be a pretty understandable reaction going from such happy hopeful future to everything going to shit in one night. Remember as far as the golden order knows: Godwyn was assassinated and no one has seen Princess Ranni. So she could be dead or missing. Meaning your options for succession are Radahn (since i think Rykard was Married before the shattering) or your cursed omen twins marrying your other already Inbred twin emperions. One of whom is a child forever so probably not capable of growing into the role, and the other is a vessel for the God of Rot. So when compared to either doing your job forever or allowing your kingdom to Rot away because your successor is literally rotten to the core. Breaking the ring seems like maybe the most appealing option.

[@AndrewBrownK]

+1

[@samf.s.7731]

Well, that last part is the only thing I disagree with, the exile of Godfrey and his warriors make it seem like Marika has planned this before the "marriage" to Radagon. Ranni's actions may have been due to her being unaware of Marika's plans. Godwyn's death, depending on where it was in the timeline, may have had nothing to do with the shattering. The shattering was always planned. People tried to make sense of what happened, so "Hysterical woman blows world up because period cramps and crying over her dead kid. Her husband was a good guy and tried to stop it". My interpretation: Trans gentleman or non binary Jesus figure rebels against god because this god is an eldritch being who seems to want everyone to incessantly suffer for its benefit. We could have gone in, past the throne room, after fighting Morgott, and we would have definitely lost that fight. But Radagon, this person made sure we don't get in until we burned the erd tree which weakens the elden beast (further), the same way the shattering did, that way we stand a chance at winning. Also, we conveniently go to Farum Azula, and get the rune of death, the only way to truly kill a god. Sure, "he's" puppeted by the Elden Beast, because it looks like it's more vulnerable outside of an Empyrean vessel. But I think this person died during the shattering, they hammered their own body... and that was something they planned on doing.

[@grassblock7668]

If we think about it, Ranni might have chosen to kill Godwyn because he rapresented the good in the Golden order. With him gone, the other side of the coin would have been brought to light.

[@TheRisky9]

I've always been intrigued by the theory that Godwyn and Ranni were engaged. I also question if after Godwyn dies and Ranni disappears, if there was talk between Radahn and Malenia being wed on the rebound. And what we see between the two is a very nasty divorce.

[@diomed96]

​@@TheRisky9I'd say I wouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't be surprised if GRR Martin was behind that lol

[@aranthur]

My theory has been for a while that if Radagon was created from Marika, it likely happened at the exact moment she first felt doubt in the Greater Will. And this actually happened right at the birth of the Erdtree era, when she defeated the giants but learned that the flame of ruin could never actually be extinguished, like she believed Which could explain Radagon's red hair, as a reminder to her of that moment, and of the inevitable burning of the Erdtree (if Marika in some ways IS the Erdtree, as some art depicts her, then her golden hair would represent its golden branches in their prime, and Radagon's RED hair could represent the same branches lit aflame) Then time passes and other doubts pop up. The Age of Plenty quickly ends, the godhunt happens and the Gloam-Eyed Queen is chosen by the Fingers as an empyrean who could potentially replace her, etc etc. Then the death of Godwyn is the final straw, and she decides it's time for the end of the Golden Order But all that time, Radagon's loyalty to the GW, his power and knowledge, as well as his ambition to be a god have done the opposite to hers and only increased over time. And even as his precious Golden Order lies shattered and rotting around him, he does everything he can to prevent the age he stubbornly believes is perfect from coming to an end. Who knows? Without him sealing the way, maybe the council of demigods that clearly once existed would have brought their Great Runes together and forged a new Ring before the Shattering War even happened

[@timothymoore2966]

How do ppl miss that radagon was a human just like marika. Holy. With the nox I’m pretty sure that happened like a lot of years before the giants were extinguished

[@soccerduder1]

Marika isn’t a human. She’s a Numen, or somehow related to them. She’s not even from the lands between

[@positivecontacts]

I think Radagon was Marika in disguise as her Jungian animus so that she could amend her reproductive issues (unable to birth an empyrean with Godfrey, the green man/crucible figure) so she goes to have an alchemical relationship with Rennala, the moon maiden and as Radagon, they form the conjunction of the sun and moon, of fire and ice, and success, Radagon can father empyrean children. Marika as Radagon gets Rennala to use the amber egg to clone herself as Radagon using Nox/Carian silver tear technology. Now Radagon and Marika are seperate people rather than just Marika in disguise. Marika kills Rennala and replaces her with a silver tear albinauric clone (that’s why Rennala can’t make life from the amber egg, because albinaurics don’t reincarnate through the Erdtree) and that’s when Marika returns to Leyndell and summons Radagon to join her. Radagon being an individual now starts to see things differently after they have their three children, Melina, Malenia and Miquella. He gets really into fundamentalism because he feels incomplete and wonders why he shouldn’t be god instead of Marika. Marika, meanwhile is sponsoring Miquella to be the next empyrean to take over the order , but is driven to the brink not by the assassination of Godwyn but the abduction of Miquella and the death of the Haligtree dream, a new tree free of the greater will. With all empyreans off the table and the Radagon and the greater will performing a hostile takeover, Marika shatters the ring because in pieces it is beyond any one persons ability to fully repair…unless someone guided by grace, an outsider, a warrior who fought until death, just might have the skill and the luck to confer great runes and slip through the grasp of the shard bearers, to acquire a god killing weapon and unravel the mystery, finally freeing Marika from imprisonment and making right what she was unable to do. As a visions vessel, together you reintroduce a semblance of death back into the land between and usher in a new age of the Erdtree. (Not the age of stars… booo)

[@girlscarf]

radagon has red hair bc hes part giant

[@joaquimeugeniolima]

I’ve observed that each Main Boss, the ones with Great Runes, we fight represents one of the Seven Deadly Sins… maybe there is a hidden meaning to that: - Radahn: Wrath (after being rotten away). - Rennala: Sloth - Rykard: Gluttony - Malenia: Pride - Godrick: Greed (becoming more powerful with grafting) - Mohg: Lust - Morgott: Envy (of his siblings for not being Omen)

[@pokermitten9795]

Matches up pretty well imo

[@captainzork6109]

I like that idea. A number of them match up in profound ways, but it is imperfect. A counter example, I think, is Rennala. She may seem like a sloth, but this lethargy seems to be borne out of the sorrow she feels for losing her beloved Radagon. And all she can bring herself to do is try and soothe herself, holding that golden egg, to make her existence bearable. It is sadness which immobilized her, not laziness. When it comes to envy, Morgott does fit. But does Godrick not fit much better? Just listen to all the things he says when you fight him. It is certainly not greed. It is envy, as well as the connected desire to be acknowledged. When it comes to Malenia, however, to accuse her of the sin of pride is actually quite profound. I've always thought that calling herself "Malenia, blade of Miquela" was her desperately trying to maintain her selfhood. And she does so by holding onto that thing which she prides herself on. By holding on to that which gave her value to that which she loved above all: Miquela. But since she lost him, all she can do now to maintain the strength to fight against the rot decaying the entirety of her soul, is to remind herself who she is: undefeated warrior, Malenia, blade of Miquela. What else *could* she do but indulge in her pride?

[@joaquimeugeniolima]

@@captainzork6109 Well, I understand your point about Rennala… however, the Sin of Sloth is a little different than the others because it’s focus is Failure to Act… You see, every Deadly Sin, except for Sloth, pushes people away from Logical Thinking; Reasonable Thought; and people end up acting according not to reasoning; but to a feeling or lack of thought (wrath is mindless anger)… Sloth, specifically, is not just about laziness, it’s deeper than that: Rennala had a child who burned her own flesh, destroying her own body; a child who had offered himself to be eaten by a giant snake to get power; a child rotting somewhere by the Scarlet Rot; also, had her post as the Leader or Raya taken from her by Sellen; refuses to fight you, entrusting the fight to a shadow image; and losing her Rune, her most valuable possession, to the player in the process… The Sin of Sloth has a deeper meaning than just laziness: it’s meaning lies in forfeiting your choices (you can choose not act)… in Rennala’s case, it is also about not upholding to her duties as a Queen and a Mother; not caring for those who depended on her; not caring for her subordinates; not caring for the state of her “kingdom” or even her own home (Caria Mansion) because she wants to remain in that lethargic state…

[@Sockysocks013]

The vampiric aspect of Lust is pretty on-point, too. Vampires are meant to parallel non-consentual fun-enjoyers (avoiding youtube algorithm rn) from a writer's perspective. Snakes being gluttonous, angels being prideful . . . there are a lot of archetypal parallels to be drawn. Good stuff man.

[@captainzork6109]

@@joaquimeugeniolima Good point! Like I said before, there may be something there, but it may require some additional thinking and tinkering. But maybe I'm thinking about this too deeply myself, since the thinking you've done regarding Sloth is certainly convincing I can see a pattern emerging: Malenia, Godrick, as well as Renala relied on sinful modes of being so that they do not succumb to their suffering. And for each of these three, we can see how relying on these sins has brought them to the pitiful states we encounter them in I have not thought enough about the rest. I'd love to propose an eight sin for Morgott, which would be the shame of being who you are? I mean, he did not think highly of himself at all, even though he did great things. Then again, he did not think highly of many. Perhaps he could be attributed wrath towards himself and everyone else he condemns? He's not kind to those who he perceives as sinful at all. That is, he is vindictive of anyone who does not meet 'the' standards, which above all includes himself

[@elwynnquinslais2776]

I feel like Marika's story has a lot to (at least what I have heard of) Miyazaki's theme of being blinded by faith until they realize the atrocities that they have done. I could make a parallel to Bloodborne's character Laurence : together, they were blinded by their pursuit for greatness (by using the blood for Laurence and waging war for Marika) until it was too late (scourge of the beast/black knives) and they realized that the core idea of their belief was twisted (turning into a beast/ Godwyn (being the representation of the Golden Order) and than Miquella didn't achieve his goal ("Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified... " after beating Malenia, Gideon's dialogue)). For the Radagon part, I just realized that one line from Enia sounded...off ? "Demigods, and even the greater of the champions, are hewn by the Erdtree upon their end, into remembrances." and the word champion reminded me of Radagon. Maybe the point of Radagon, not speaking after our death and seemingly cracked, was because he was a rememberance hewned into Marika (and we loot Elden's Beast remembrance, not Radagon's) so that Marika could be corrected. So she could have his power : blind faith ("These remembrances yet house the power of their former masters"). After all, as an Elden Lord, Radagon was known for training his children to be faithfull to the Golden Order, not anything else and Radagon isn't really mentioned in Elden Beast's Remembrance. He became a sword because he is used for his faith. I'm maybe too far gone into speculation ! Hope it may spark an idea ! Sorry for my english, I'm french and the word "remembrance" is like a tongue twister !

[@elwynnquinslais2776]

Addendum regarding Godwyn : I was obvisously speaking of this death, but we could also add that the potential of his lign was lost with all the grafting

[@timothymoore2966]

I was with you until the remembrance talk, not a bad take but I just don’t agree. There’s so much literature on radagon in the game they probably felt it was needed if he would be considered the protagonist. Radagon is no diff than marika started as a human but then blindly followed the Golden order

[@elwynnquinslais2776]

@@timothymoore2966 Yeah, to be honest the word "hewned" seemed so odd to me that I went on that whole tangent almost conspiracy like. For the protagonis part, apart from the player, I don't think that there are any protagonists in Elden Ring they feel like gears to me in movement acting causes and consequences.

[@jc-pablorubio6068]

“You are clearly smoking that good shit” got me dying 😂

[@TheRisky9]

It's very possible Ranni the Witch really doesn't know who shattered the Elden Ring or why, as her only goal was to free herself from her Empyrean Flesh and the influence of the Two Fingers. Since the shattered Elden Ring didn't disrupt her plans, there was no reason to look into it, especially if the risk of doing so outweighed the reward. It was an interesting and unintended consequence that had no bearing on the outcome she wanted. As for Marika's motives, I tend to have a more positive view of Marika than most. I think Godwyn was just the last straw. I think it was a combination of things. The problem with godhood is that anything you speak becomes law. If it didn't then you're not a god. And since a god is perfect, they cannot break their own law. At least, that's one way to look at it. When Marika banished the old order of the crucible to establish her Golden Order, it was under the condition that any remnants of the Crucible be removed. And we can see that in the architecture of the game. There are a lot of places that don't seem to come from the Golden Order that weren't quite removed and other places where it seems effigies of the Golden Order replaced what was there before. Even the Erd tree itself has a golden husk that seemed placed right over the original tree, but the roots and such still show that it's not the original. Well Marika marries Godfrey and she seems to like him... a lot. But Godfrey is a man from the time of the Crucible and their children are born Omen. Oops. What do you do? If a Goddess breaks or goes back on her own law, it suggests she's wrong and she ceases to be a goddess. I think the Shunning Grounds was a way to maneuver around her own order. To retain her godhood and spare her children's lives. So Godwyn wasn't just her "firstborn" (though I'm not sure if we actually know that.) He was also the son of her beloved Godfrey and the one child she was allowed to keep. He probably reminded her of his father. Godfrey is banished, which Marika was not too keen on doing. Again, she circumvents around the idea of just killing him and the Tarnished when their usefulness is expended. But it's more than that. Giving them the guidance of grace is the first step in her plan. And good thing she set this in motion because things are going to get worst. First, her champion who she tasked with conquering her rival decides to conquerer her rival... in all the ways you don't want your champion to conquer your rival. Great! So Ranalla gets to live. But by this point, the Golden Order knows Marika is up to something. So the Greater Will decided instead of replacing Marika, to merely change her nature. And to change Marika's nature, they forced her not only to marry Radagon, but also fuse with him and become a whole new being: one that was more compliant to the Greater Will. This turned out to be more like one of those 5 Minute Craft Videos. Props for creativity, but in reality, it's completely impractical and may even kill you. Marika's fusion with Radagon didn't change her will at all. In fact, it seems they were pretty miserable together. And the failure of it, disrupted the Golden Order "one god" rule, putting them in an even more precarious situation should anyone find out. This union was not only a violation of Marika's autonomy, but now she has two unwanted children by Radagon AND they're both suffering from severe birth defects. Then everything Marika knew would happen if she married Radagon happened. Ranni did betray her, and it's suggested she did so with the assistance of Rykard and Godwyn dies. So of course she shatters the Elden Ring. It was the only thing she could do any more in defiance. The final "f--k you, I'm still here. You didn't change me at all" to the Golden Order, the Greater Will, the Two Fingers, and the Elden Beast.

[@NerdOracle]

This feels just convoluted enough to make sense

[@alwin9616]

Thank god someone else said it…i always felt marika was likely to be one of the most pitiful ones… Edit: i wanna reiterate…ur post is essentially what i got going on as my head cannon

[@TheRisky9]

​@@NerdOracleThanks. I try.

[@ShadeStormXD]

in the cinematic trailer, ranni recounts the events from the stealing of a piece of death to the final battle between radahn and malenia and near the start she states, " the elden ring was broken, but by whom, and why?" so ranni definitely did not know

[@anonisnoone6125]

U seem too optimistic about Marika. She's probably one of the scummiest people in ER.

[@Psychx_]

It'd be interesting to know who originally burnt the erdtree. There's already ashes in Leyndell when we get there for the first time and burning the erdtree being "a cardinal sin" is oddly specific in the sense that someone has probably already tried that at some point. Was that what originally ended the age of plenty?

[@georgemen]

That point about sin is really good. In the same sense, there would’ve not been the biblical cardinal sins if they were not done before, you know?

[@fersho450]

That could have been vyke (the first tarnished of Melina)

[@Memnoch_the_Devil]

Once again Jake, you’ve knocked if out of the park with this one. You also pointed out a couple of very simple and obvious things that myself and others so easily overlook in Elden Ring’s lore when it is so infamously massive and convoluted. But the one thing that was an eye opener to me in this video (aside from you clarifying the timeline) was the possibility that Marika shattering the Elden Ring and kicking off the War of the Shattering due to the grief of losing her perfect son was very likely drawn from the catalyst that kicked off Ragnarok in Norse Mythology. I also feel the need to point out just how much I always appreciate when content creators take the time to not only read, but respond to comments as well. Even if they’re not my own. After all, nobody has a monopoly on EldenRing/FromSoft lore and this series has long been designed by Miyazaki and team to bring this community of players together via a cooperative effort

[@TheAuspiciousGoldmask]

Thats a way to see it indeed, Marika will always be a mysterious character, but i liked your view of all this, mainly the part where you say that she wanted to mock radagon for being a obedient dog of the golden order, i believe everything that radagon did was purely visioning the benefit of the golden order, from marrying rennala, having children with her and leaving the amber egg with her and leaving her depressed.

[@mistakai4226]

Radagon is Marika. Marika married Renala and gave her the rune of rebirth.

[@samf.s.7731]

@@mistakai4226 Yep.

[@azrieldalusong5042]

@@mistakai4226 if so why did Radagon try to fix the ring while Marika try to break it?

[@wolfgangvonodio1097]

This is so crazy. I have almost 300 hours in this game, and I grew up hearing the Sagas and Edda. Yet this is the first time I have connected the events in game to the events of Ragnarök, but it is all there. The death of the gods, the serpents, the wolves, the burning of the world to be born anew. It is all there, and I am just now realizing it. Great video, really going to make playing the game even more enriching now that you have made these parallels.

[@DeadJuicebox]

Yeah me too. I even joked that the Erdtree was Yggdrasil but still didn't see the parallel.

[@ArrakisHeir88]

You should read a song of ice and fire. Bran falls out of a building that was struck by lightning, losing his legs but gaining magical knowledge, in like chapter 6 of the first book

[@Tokyoprism]

You must be new here lol yeah old gods dying & the world coming to an end to be born a new is pretty standard practice in fromsoft games. It’s not really an Aha! moment seeing as how this is like the 5th time around

[@FlavorsomeMusic]

Concerning important pieces not being known, I've watched a video from NakeyJakey like... Just before I watched this, and he mentions at some point that Miyazaki inspired himself building the story of the dark souls game by his own experience consuming western fantasy and sci-fi books, where he didn't quite understand everything, and loved to piece things together with his imagination, and I think he kind of wants us to have that same kind of experience. He wants us to debate on what the lore actually is, and he wants us to come to our own conclusions. Another lore channel I've been listening to (It was actually a video from you, a year ago lol) pieced it as like... It being Marika wanting to free the lands between from the influence of the greater will, or at least the greater will represented by the two fingers, and sortof enlisting ranni to achieve this, ranni then discarding her empyrean flesh with the rune of death to shatter the influence the greater will has on her, and they choose godwyn as the other side of that equation because he represents the golden order, which begins this cycle of chaos. You arrive at the point where the world fell into chaos enough that the order imposed by the greater will is fragile enough to be broken, and Ranni enlists/uses you to achieve that. That it's all like... An orchestrated plan ? The shattering is just a step along the way, though it's definitely the most obvious event to outside observers where things really started to go "bad". From that interpretation, I came to the conclusion myself that Ranni's ending is the "true", desirable ending that Marika planned from the start, because it brings freedom and self-determination to the lands between. Ranni doesn't even stay, if I understand correctly. I also even believe that Melina might be an aspect of Ranni guiding you along the path for her purposes. Melina ~drastically~ changes her demeanor once you've cleared Leyndell. She clearly has ulterior motives from the start that become apparent when you finish Leyndell. I'm pretty sure many people would disagree with these conclusions, but that's what's beautiful about it. We fill in the blanks with what fits our values, morals and beliefs best, and it makes us enjoy it more than conclusions set in stone by the story. I'm older, and I understand this kind of "piece it together" storytelling, it was fairly common up to the PS3 era. I also understand it's probably a bit jarring to modern gamers that are used to have all the answers and be gently guided towards all of the content. Feels like the soulsborne genre as a whole is made to be antithetical to modern game design, and I think that's precious. Also like, as a disclaimer, I'm probably nowhere near as involved into the lore or even the game as most people here are. ^^''

[@youtubeuserkine]

ive always loved how you can see specks of gold in godwyns eyes during the night of the black knives scene. also i think the little ring around the pupil is what is referred to ingame as the guidance of grace and how its visible in a tarnished's eyes

[@movespammerguyteam7colors]

It does seem like Marika genuinely cared for her son Godwyn. All things considered I would be very upset and angry when I literally removed the concept of Death from the world only for the child that I was about to hand off the keys to the kingdom / world to suddenly dies by the hands of my own people. Plus having 2 personalities fighting inside you for control doesn’t really help.

[@Zapdos97]

8:55 This has to be Radagon. Even The Fingers are puzzled as to why the Tarnished can't enter the Erdtree after defeating Morgott. The Greater Will wants us to seek audience with Marika and mend the Elden Ring. It's Radagon and/or the Elden Beast that prevent us from doing so.

[@vaclavsoukup7302]

In my humble opinion, Radagon's and Marika's minds are long gone. The thing we fight is just Radagon's body manipulated by the Elden Beast to make it seem like this definitely is the Big, Red and Cracked himself. When we beat the puppet, the puppeteer sees that this is worthless and gets off it's arse to do the job itself.

[@DreamersOfReality]

No, the Two Fingers haven't actually received any word from the Greater Will. That's why they commune with it after our return. I do think the GW has abandoned the Lands Between. If it hadn't, there's no explanation for why the Elden Beast resisted our ascension to Elden Lord.

[@cainabel6356]

Nah, The Greater Will controls the Elden Beast. The reason we are not allowed in is because it does not want anyone knowing what really is happening. We don't fight Radagon, but a puppet. He and Marika have both been dead for a long time, seeing how they are just like the other dead we fought getting to the big tree. The divine beast is just using the corpse as a puppet. Then when we destroy the puppet, we face the puppeteer. The Greater Will does not want anyone to know it is causing the problems and is just like the other gods that are out there.

[@Zapdos97]

@cainabel6356 But that doesn't make sense because the Tarnished seeks to mend the Elden Ring? I mean unless you inherit the frenzied flame. So we just take the words of the Fingers as the Greater Will lying?

[@cainabel6356]

@@Zapdos97 The Greater Will is a outer god. It just wants control, just like every other outer god. BTW, what part of my comment did not make sense? The fact that the Greater Will does not want us to come into the tree to see what has happened? If you play Ranni's questline to the fullest, you restore the Elden Ring to fight the puppet and the Elden Beast, destroying the Greater Will's control over the planet. Seeing how Ranni is the one talking, I am going to say her questline is the true questline. That is part of my theory. The world is safe from the outer gods' control, which is what she wants.

[@warchiefa]

Marika created the Golden Order by removing destined death from the elden ring. She wanted to create a world where none would die, but when godwyn was murdered she realized she had made a mistake, her order was flawed. And so she shattered it. Thats my take

[@nightsage217]

Marika planned the shattering for a long time. Melina's quote in church of Pilgrimage: Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey. Perhaps it is a break away from the power of Erdtree. Melina's quote in Queen's Bedchamber: 7:40 In Marika's own words. O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self. Although I find loss of the Godwyn is really compelling theory, Marika had been preparing for more losses, Melina's Quotes in Outer Wall Battleground Site: Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices... I don't have much answer. But that is part of the game. My current favorite idea is she had enough with the Elden Ring and wish to be parted with it. Only an Elden Lord can do it for her.

[@jruby9113]

My biggest issue with the theory that marika shattered the ring out of grief is that it feels like she had planned for this eventuality already - when she strips the tarnished of grace, she says they'll be called back some day, and we do get called back to fix the elden ring. It's possible the greater will just took advantage of that and called the tarnished back itself, and marika had planned to call the tarnished back later for a completely different reason, but that doesn't mesh well with my general vibe of Marika - I've had the impression that she was involved in the black knives plot to some degree.

[@erikdanielperez]

It goes deeper than that, IMO Marika doubts the Erdtree and the Order BEFORE Godwyn is killed. In fact I would go as far to say she probably was aware, in some form facilitated and let it happen.

[@christophermitchell9739]

6:59 Just imagining Marika recording herself and being like: By popular demand, I will be performing the "Shatter the Elden Ring" prank.

[@vespenegas261]

Leaving no room for speculation with an answer is almost never a good choice.

[@LittleGoldRose]

I love these Videos! It’s so good to see people asking the big questions and making theories still a year later. And as a lore fanatic I’m super excited for Shadow of The Erdtree. Also I love the music you have playing in the Background in each video, I wish I knew what it was so I could listen to it while I draw. The Violin sections are just absolutely beautiful. 💛😻💛

[@ironbadger8985]

May we all smoke the good shit in order to LORE on such a level.

[@phinicebear6781]

Spark it up like the erdtree

[@cb-9938]

Godwyn is the most intriguing too me, his story is so sad. But also the reprocusons of his death are yet too be fully explored. You kill a shard-bearer like Godfrey or Godrick we get their remembrance. While their physical body dies. But for Godwyn, his remembrance was destroyed. Leaving his corpse to become a mindless parasite clinging to the Erdee tree roots

[@cincameron]

2:28 - Whoops. Maybe I had a brain-fart in the moment, but either way, I would've been wrong since the intro contradicts the story trailer and rogier's dialogue and vice versa :)... But now that it's cleared up, I assume Marika shattered the ring due to having different ideas from the Greater Will/Two Fingers/Beast of what the Golden Order was supposed to fulfill. She was devoted and went to war, slew the giants, and sent Godfrey and Radagon to sweep up other notable competitors in the Lands before Godfrey was robbed of grace, aspects of the crucible being seen as heretical, and Marika's own children falling victim to the new laws established the moment the Golden Order became the dominating force in the lands between. Marika was likely forced to wed Radagon (ignoring any and all theories on Radagon's origins just to keep it simple) and... to have more children for potential Empyreans (Ranni being a step-child and an Empyrean... Miquella and Malenia being born from Radagon + Marika and being Empyreans). It seemed like the Two Fingers were getting ready to replace Marika... and the straw that broke the camel's back ended up being a plot by Marika's own kin (Ranni and Numen women) who slaughtered her first-born son. Off-topic, but I think Radagon was ultimately decided to replace Marika since he shared similar ideals with the Greater Will... desiring perfection/completion. Marika probably wanted a better world for everyone and thought the Greater Will was going to fulfill that... The only thing frustrating to me about the lore is that it's REALLY unclear whether Radagon became one with Marika during the shattering of the ring OR if they were always one person... There's nothing to truly debunk either theory and it's BUGGING ME. I honestly can't believe I said that the Elden Ring being Shattered happened before Godwyn's death. I was dumb or didn't fact-check. Forgive me my sins.

[@ActiasECHO]

I always thought marika did it to free the people of the greater will's machinations And i think she was driven to the brink by seeing the elden beast boss fight Cause all those trees can be other erdtrees in different worlds All those people are under this outer god's thumb And you who always thought were special are just one of many So she broke the elden ring and took away the grace from tarnished to free people of the greater will and giving them a reason to fight against it

[@mongoose9897]

One thing I think we can be sure of is she didn‘t do it out of grief over Godwyn‘s death (or at least not entirely) because the Tarnished exile happened long before that, meaning she already planned to use the battle hardened Tarnished for something. Now, how much of what she planned resembled the actual event is anyone‘s guess.

[@JakeSymbolASMR]

I think explanations based on Marika’s “personal reasons” make sense thematically if you consider goldmask’s mending rune which says he discovered a “fly in the ointment” which is that the gods are just as fickle as people. Which I take to mean more generally that they are just as full as contradicting impulses as common people, and something specifically about the gods having this quality corrupts the entire order, maybe making regression impossible or something

[@noname-dp3gn]

except that rogier during the duskborn quest says that the night of the black knives happened long before the shattering.

[@clamantstone]

Ive always wondered why didnt ranni use one of the omen twins for the ritual more than likely their deaths would of been ignored by golden order and marika for being omen why go after godwyn in particular out of all other potenital demigods; I always get the feeling it was a personal attack against marika going after her "Favourite" child.

[@garrettalexander9210]

So happy to see you putting out content!!

[@Amferam]

I don’t think we can answer this without two other answers. 1. Why was Marika chosen as a god. 2. What exactly are Radagon and Marika? A Rebis (male and female in one body) or two beings shattered and reformed as one.

[@ChanchoWins]

Marika is a extension of the greater will because she came to life when a metheor send by the greater will struck the lands between.

[@atamohammady5979]

@@ChanchoWins if so then other meteor like astell send by who!?? Is sending meteor, a greater will hobby or other outer gods try influencing lands betwin!??

[@ChanchoWins]

metheor beings such as Astel or Full Grown Fallingstar Beast are not necesarly sent by something or someone but rather summoned by the Starcallers. @@atamohammady5979

[@SiddarthaTB]

@@atamohammady5979 Astell is prob sent by another outer god. There are multiple outer gods like the God of Rot, The formless mother (Mohg worships her) and Frenzied flame

[@luckyadrian100]

This should be has milliona views, but I love to see lot of speculations about elden ring lore on the internet proses this game have a lot Interesting stuff to tell. Mr. Hidetaka Miyazaki will always be my favorite

[@Deadman1000]

I was always curious what exactly Gideon saw when he glimpsed into the Golden Order that made him so afraid? It gave me the same feeling of Bloodborne with the cosmic horror.

[@THEphant0mX]

I think Marika was just fed up with the golden order and greater will. She hated there rules and religion and seeing her child, a supposed Immortal being be murdered made her snap. By shattering the elden ring, she would spite the Greater will and also curse everyone in the lands between to make sure the killer would be punished.

[@RWNetworkEX]

She thought it would be the best prank ever.

[@G.A.M.E.R.-]

I love that you’re a fellow smoker as well, lore nerds unite

[@phinicebear6781]

Spark it up like the erdtree

[@HallstaR35]

I saw the title and started to cry. Like.. WHY WOULD YOU DO SUCH A THING QUEEN MARIKA??!!

[@Bigfreakinsword]

I love how gently everyone picks up her head...

[@Doc-Mayhem]

The three fingers makes me think of elder from legacy of Kain a parasite on the land

[@walruss106]

Marika is a name meaning "Rebellious Woman," though it's unclear what she rebelled against. I absolutely agree with the commenter who compared this to the assassination of Baldur, and the start of Ragnarok. In fact if you think of Marika as an Odin figure, Radagon can be thought of as a Vali figure - a man begot on a giant, created for the sole purpose of avenging Baldur's death (and who is associated with wolves). Admittedly I'm seeing timeline issues with that.

[@glezard212]

Only reason I considered this inconsistent is because we know marika was looking for a way to die. The giant says that he’s forging a godslaying weapon

[@StepSisRUstuck]

Fin smoking that strain called HIGH IQ 😂❤

[@MR-fx5td]

The black knives who killed Godwyn were Numen. The people of Marika. And in game description said that those people were "very close to Marika". So there is also another theory that says Marika schemed a very long and well crafted master plan involving removing death, sealing it into her shadow, removing grace from the tarnished and banishing Godfrey. All of this to take down the golden order and the greater will, whom have enslaved her for eons.

[@Troan_kyr_am]

The Elden ring was shattered by a sad mother, who lost her child in a plot to defy the guards who let this happen to her beloved son the whole story is about a couple of sad mothers and their messed up children if you think about it

[@jandeiification]

Agreed. No matter how she acts like a Regal Queen, Marika the Eternal is still a mother, who loves very much GODWYN the GOLDEN, much like Queen Cersei to Geoffrey. GODWYN was her favorite precious son... period.

[@devinguy]

"...perhaps, the Queen's sorrow was justified... Sorry, lost myself for a moment there..."

[@Dawgpackelite]

Yo when Jake stamped bruh was smoking that good 💨😂😂😂😂😂

[@jspencer5769]

Never picked up on the parallels to Norse Mythology. Great vid!!

[@rexcyjones9416]

Ranni stealing that fragment always feels like a revenge move against Radagon for leaving her mom in a state of madness. That one move of hers really tumbled all the domino pieces Marika carefully set up and now everyone is in a whole world of pain 😅

[@gardenboydon]

You nailed it at the end. The story of elden ring is a bit vague because persons are dynamic emotionally and have conflicting motivations. Great video

[@robertmcdiarmid4921]

Half expecting the DLC to have some Artorias style time shenanigans which result in our player character being the one to slay Godwin

[@William_Reader]

In my opinion the vague nature of Elden Ring's lore is perhaps the best element of it. If we were simply told the truth outright for all aspects, there would be no fun in the lore. But yeah regarding Marika, the death of Godwyn probably "shattered" her faith in the Golden Order and the Greater Will. Knowing the Golden Order was flawed, but being a mere puppet herself, her only choice to change anything was through the Shattering. Like Ragnarök, the current world would die, but another would be reborn anew. This concept can be seen within the Erd tree itself, with it shedding seeds upon the Shattering, indicating the Shattering was not the end, but a new beginning of something else. What becomes of the Lands between rests at the fate of the Tarnished themselves, due to the multiple possible endings. Whether that is part of Marika's plan or not, I am not sure.

[@TheOneAndTrueHead]

8:59 Don't think so. Radagon wanted no one to enter the erdtree, he didn't want anything to change in the world at its misrable state. You can see his rune creating the thorns that stop you from entering, hence why you needed to burn them off in the snowy peak (i forgot the name). So it's really radagon fighting you to keep you away from the elden ring, not marika. Also, marika and radagon look broken because they were literally carrying the elden ring inside them. When marika destroyed it, so did she.

[@vollgereat]

I say, that it was Miquellas abduction that drove her to hit it. Rogier himself said, that Marika was only driven "to the brink" of madness, when Godwyn died. She only needed a little push. And Miquella is basically a second Godwyn, just a bit flawed (his child-curse).

[@glorytoukraine5524]

Marika probably banished Godfrey herself, in order to protect him. Seeing how everyone, even the royal family, ended up at the slightest hint of imperfection, she probably wanted to keep him safe, until the time came for him to return and conquer the lands between again. Without the Greater Will in the way, another age of the Crucible doesn't seem like a bad idea. Of course, until a naked fuck with a stick shows up and gets married to a cold marionette.

[@a5hen]

In order to protect him? Where did that come from? Although there is no solid answer she was more likely a person with a Machiavellian mindset who banished him when he ran out of Grace and probably asked him to train warriors who could help during the time of trouble and danger.

[@glorytoukraine5524]

@@a5hen She banished him when he ran out of grace, yes. Here's why I think it was to protect him. Everyone else, who wasn't blessed by grace, like the giants and the Nox, were doomed to be slaughtered for the Golden Order's prosperity. Marika tells her own kids, that if they don't make anything of themselves, they'll amount only to sacrifices. So maybe she sent Godfrey away, before the Greater Will has a chance to throw him in the meat grinder to fuel itself.

[@Zapdos97]

There's a description from somewhere that she 'hounded' him from the Lands Between though

[@CJusticeHappen21]

I think that Queen Marika, also and by association Radagon,, and to lesser degrees her children, were all capable of foresight. Her children could all see the paths that their own choices might lead do, but she was able to see the grander picture, the path born from all of their consequentially diverging choices, in the pursuit of their own ends. And the reason she tried to break the world is because she foresaw a future that was so utterly horrific that she could not bear to permit it. So she broke the world. But once the world was broken, the path to damnation was removed from sight, and this led to Radagon attempting to restore the Elden Ring, to see if restoring the world would reveal that some new path was ahead for them. But the events at hand are fixed, and every time Radagon restores the Elden Ring, the future terror reveals itself once again. And Marika, again, destroys the world order in order to escape from such a fate. What do I think is this fixed, devastating nightmare that she foresees for us all? Where is Miquella?

[@jonahlatham3144]

Maybe a dumb question, but why are there statues of Queen Marika in the crucified pose everywhere in the Lands Between if she is supposedly missing and no one knows where she is. The stakes of Marika have that pose and the one in leyndell does as well. Do people know about it or not?

[@mjvasquez12]

I don't think Radagon is a puppet to the Greater Will. It is the thorns that are shaped like the pattern on Radagon's Scarseal that keep us out of the Erdtree. This also confuses the Two Fingers, such that it disappears to commune with the Greater Will for a thousand years. I think this implies that Radagon is basically a God , like Queen Marika, and keeping you out of the Erdtree is his will. He wants to prolong the Golden Order's reign. Goldmask's Mending Rune also supports him being a God, as it his fickleness that keeps the Lands Between stuck in ruined state.

[@exodia9012]

This only made me more convinced that THE LORD OF FRENZIED FLAME is the best ending

[@Psychx_]

The frenzied flame gets rid of those sniper lobsters, so yes.

[@Kishin333]

I hate those things so much

[@a5hen]

Nope, Perfect Order is best

[@thecommentguy9380]

cease thy preaching heretic tell the three fingers it shall never have convergence

[@_ariosto1519]

My two favorites: frenzied flames, which burns it all, and Dung Eater, which makes everyone eat dung forever!😅

[@noahherrera7281]

I haven't seen anyone do an Aztec build in Elden Ring and I made one and I love it! I have the Radahn Helmet, the Rotten Cape, the guardian gauntlets, and the perfume legs, I use the Briars Greatsword and buckler shield with the crystalian summon! My physik is the opaline hardtear and the greenburst crystal tear, my talismans are shard of Alexander, Godfrey Icon, rotten wing insignia and the dragoncrest great shield talisman

[@EyobFitwi]

I have a slightly alternative idea. I don't think Marika ever really wanted to become a goddess, but did so for the sake of compromise. But It didn't work out unfortunately. Marika was a Numen. The Black Knives assassins, also Numen, were referred to as scions of the Eternal City - Nokron and Nostella. And we know what happened to it. It was cast underground by the Greater Will (using Astel), cursed to live under false skies. Why? I think that when the Greater Will came to assert it's hegemony the Eternal Cities challenged it, but found out they weren't a match for it and resulted in them being cast underground. They have been plotting ever since through various efforts. The residents were seeking to get their own lord through the Mimic Tear. Marika, a Numen, decided to compromise and become a vassal of the GW to avoid further destruction, but upon understanding how the GW works she realized it won't work out (or maybe she was compelled, and never stopped plotting since then, though I don't think it would motivate her to undertake the various wars to uphold the Golden Order). She sent out Godfrey in the hopes of having him return stronger and defeat the GW. But the GW must've noticed this and forcibly manifested her alter-ego Radagon (or itself in the form of Radagon), a compliant version of her in order to control her. So much so that they/she had to play both husband and wife to keep up the Golden Order. The curse that their children had to bear due to this union (think a higher version of inbreeding) further illustrates how much of an abomination her/their situation is and how far the GW was willing to go to inflict its will. Radagon doesn't really fit with her or the system that is supposed to support her and her regime. He stands against Marika. The Goldmask's discovery of Radagon's identity led him to see cracks in the Golden Order (and the problem of the GW). The Black Knives, instigated by Ranni, had other ideas. I don't think Ranni and Marika were collaborating. More likely they probably had the same goals but different ideas on how to reach it, and decided to tacitly stay out of each other's way. Ranni was more radical, cunning and ruthless, hence the better success of her scheming. Marika, with the stress of being under the GW's thumb, grief of Godwyn's death and everything else overbearing her finally snapped and found a moment of overpowering clarity that enabled her to smash the Elden Ring, despite Radagon's (and by implication the GW's) attempt to counter her. Then of course the GW punished her, but it doesn't matter, because she already set motion events to effect change. Marika's fate was tragic and she sacrificed a lot. But she was a hero, a true Numen to the end. The GW (and perhaps all the outer gods) is the true villain.

[@a5hen]

I mean this could be absolutely right but this story makes Marika a victim or more of a martyr, which to be perfectly honest is less likely to be. Goldmask's ending gives a pretty good explanation as to what went wrong: the fly in the ointment, the cruel gods who decided to manipulate the system on their own which makes more sense.

[@a5hen]

Also, you assume that Radagon was always against her which doesn't make sense as he was ordered to fight thr Carian family and then was asked to come back with the children too. He only developed a different identity after learning about sorcery and incantations which together formed the Golden Order Fundamentalism.

[@mitchryan257]

“There’s nothing with a well laid scheme.” - The Fool’s Idol

[@nickmurray2390]

So we do not know these series of events at all, but not because we can't. People seem to not understand why a character telling a story, or legend, is not lore gospel. You can debate who to trust but when there are so many clashing opinions it is pretty clear people are either ill informed, or portraying it to their favor. You can find truth by layering who says something and why against how it is framed by others in the game. In our real world people quote all sorts of things erroneously for their own gains, that is a reality in a good world like the lands between. We have zero evidence of what the elden ring is, if it is only metaphorical.....how do you shatter a metaphor. We are manipulated by everyone in this game, it is when you start to just make observations you learn stuff, then we can begin to figure out why an NPC says what they do. I do not expect it with DLC you are all still very obviously wrong about Gwyn, the darkness in humanity could only ever be tempered with light, it was not an attempt to snuff it out. The endless greed in the real world is a pretty good analogy, those bug people eating sludge and corpses are not misunderstood, they are what is left of our humanity when we give it all up for "the way it is" just as the past of our own world.

[@5zhd]

After i read minor erdtree incantation and golden braid description it made me sad for her she was imprisoned and she isn’t evil she is broken

[@user-sp3pn2cs4e]

When reporting to Gideon about the Haligtree roots he explains to ur character about Miquella's uprooting. He says towards the end "I guess the queen's sorrow was justified "So not only was Godwyns death the catalyst of the shattering but also the news of Miquella's kidnapping affected both sides of Marika (herself and Radagon)

[@ino7604]

I always thought it was like a divine-being civil war. Marika rebelling against the Greater Will. Her attempt to usurp

[@beniron5807]

I don’t think Marika had such emotions at least not how we have them. Marika was a Numan, then a Champion, then finally, a god vessel. I think Marika worshipped the stars with her people, the Beast comes to the lands between, and she witnesses its power. I think she simply wanted power and she betrays her people to achieve that power. Soon she discovers she too is disposable and schemes for a way to live eternally but ultimately fails. I think the shattering was more or less her just flipping the game board. “If I can’t win, no one will”. Is it a wonder why everyone seems to think Ranni’s ending is the best? Where we literally yeet into the stars and let every to be damned

[@darinarnold6976]

I thjnk maybe marika saw the elden ring as the reason she lost her favorite son. Like yeah the ring didnt directly kill godwyn but the way she saw it he was killed because someone was trying to take its power for themselves so she destroyed it in order to stop them from taking it

[@dbfzato-1327]

i just realized ranni sed that the war ended with darkness as we know the erdtree is the source of light of the lands between, and we know that the tree was burnt down b4 and is mostly a illusion of faith now, what if that was when it happened?

[@mynamebashbarti]

The D4 music is the icing on the cake

[@mohamedalsadany2029]

i started playing elden ring and it gets more sad as i go on, to the point i don't want to kill these characters anymore. usually games give you reasons to want to keep pushing on, this game makes it hard to even want to go on, started with singing bats, and the ancestral plains , raddan and that video confirms the rest is more heartbreak

[@225millionmilesaway]

Yes, this is the most plausible explanation for sure. I would say she began questioning and loosing her faith long before the Night of the Black Knives. This likely began even when Godfrey was still around. It isn't too much of a stretch to say that all events that led to the Shattering and the decline of the Golden Order were set into motion when she started questioning her faith. This made her an imperfect, impure vessel. In fact, the omen twins who were conceived with Godfrey might be the first indication of her vanning faith in the Golder Order. Being a vessel for the Elden Ring while loosing faith in it, might have created a void inside her in which the Crucible, the primordial form of the Erdtree was able to manifest. She probably even banished Godfrey to bring back Radagon - the perfect embodiment of her vessel self - so that she can maintain the order. But in my interpretation of the lore, it is pretty clear that Godwyn's death was the immediate reason for the shattering of the Elden Ring. Marika is a very mysterious character, but she is also seems to be deeply human and I think we can deduce a lot about her just through her relationships and interactions with other characters in the game.

[@peachibread1983]

This is why i just like hard timelines which are explained in chronological order. Just makes sense unlike the vaguery of the elden ring timeline which is its biggest problem.

[@brentclouse7791]

Marika doing it for the vine got me good

[@Warkill94]

I alway wonder how long did she ruled the lands? Also the time between the shattering and when our tranished came back. Was it decades, centuries, Millenia, eons,etc.?

[@smokestack_lightning_999]

Rani discusses being a slave to the greater will as an empyrean, that is why she killed her body. I wonder if the shattering was Marikas attempt to be free after being a puppet for so long. It is also possible that because there were more empyreans Marika was fearful of being exiled to die like Godfrey and the tarnished when her useful wore out.

[@dmitc01]

Love these discussion videos, keep them coming.

[@tekarthobbyist9598]

All this time i thought Marika was simply pissed that her favourite child was killed and she suspected one of her other kids had done it so she called unto us the tarnished to kill them one by one.. hence we were called by grace.. and she has disappeared coz she doesn't want to witness our onslaught

[@edvard-swift3645]

I feel like since Merika losing her first born child who seemed to be so close to her, he was their aiding her in important battles that made her queen and that her own allies added in his death truly broke her

[@George_Floggins]

Marika shattering the Elden Ring for the Vine, a 6 second video, would be a good start to an answer

[@pepega8198]

regarding marika shattering the elden ring as an act of grief for godwyn, i thought the same at first, but then theres no reason to add the ghost near one mausoleum, who said “godwyn was the unwanted child of hers”, aka soul-less demi god, with the cult of mausoleum knights of death, which was confusing for me, but at the same time interesting, why would she shatter the ring then, if she hated godwyn and soul-less demi god of mausoleums is canonically godwyn, as provided info by miquella’s sword for him, symbolizing their planned alliance, the ghost at castle sol saying “ur comrade remains soul less”, meaning their certain aim cant now be realized, plus the presence of eclipse shotel, symbol of eclipse, and mausoleums, plus interestingly, it seems godwyn lived in the nameless eternal city, with his corpse there, implying eternal cities possibly in cohorts with the erdtree order before the treason of black knives

[@highiqkong7419]

what’s the name of the song playing in the background? (@2:30)

[@imdefinitelynotjesus]

I’ve got one for you, Polyanna, Adopted Daughter. She’s an npc that can be summoned during the O’Neil fight. That said, what’s that all about as she’s clearly a Persona like Millicent for Malenia. Who’s she the adopted daughter of? And How does she fit in to this overall picture in general?

[@baeber]

Millicent and her sisters are small little clones of Malenia

[@snefansson]

So having watched what is now over a year full of lore speculation videos, this was amongst the first that actually clicked with me on a different level. The lore in this game has felt so beyond me that my imagination has just been stumped. This video opened up so many doors for me to explore, my curiosity will now happily fill in the blanks with possible answers. Thank you!

[@rafsandomierz5313]

I wonder why Radagon would seal the Erdtree then, knowing that tarnished would have to resort to burning the erdtree thus weakening the Elden beast. I wonder what was the goal Radagon wanted to achive here through blockage of the entrance of the erdtree?

[@mjvasquez12]

There is also this interesting quote below from Gideon Ofnir that comments on the Queen's sorrow being justified. Could this add to her motivation to shatter the Elden Ring? Maybe. The timeline is very confusing, so I don't know where to place Miquella's capture "So. The Haligtree, now but a husk... I heard speculation Miquella embedded himself in the Haligtree, but before he could finish, someone cut the tree open and absconded with his infant form. Indeed, it seems those words held weight. How vexing. That the All-knowing didn't have the full story... Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified... Ah, my apologies. Lost myself, for a moment there. The information you've shared is of great value. As promised, your reward: A secret rite known only to me. You are a true fellow. All I ask is that you remain constant."

[@dream8870]

could anyone tell me the music in the background, it’s sound so sad, but like so good

[@AmyJackson-_-85]

I agree with experiences and people. Each person has their own perception. No matter the reality people see things differently and it can make or break a story. Truth can be true, but not everyone will see the truth. It's all based on what each person has experienced in their past.

[@jacquiecotillard9699]

No Total thing can avoid containing the opposite of itself.

[@jacobnewell7845]

I think it has to do more with Marika's own goals. There are obviously parallels between dark souls and elden ring, particularly in the story. We know that Gwen sought to defy the natural order by preventing the coming age of dark and prolonging his age of fire, which it was prolonged, indefinitely at that. We can see this in Marika by her reaction to Ranni being born an empyrian. Radahn became known as conqueror of the stars, thus locking Ranni's fate in stasis. It's pretty obvious that after this, Miquella and Malenia were born as Empyrains as well. If we go through all the events pertaining to Marika, we can see an active effort to keep her Age of Gold going on forever. But where Gwen was more subtle, She seemed to be more reactionary. Given what I've seen from the way from tells their stories in these games, we know that nothing we do will actually effect the outcome: in dark souls, the fire will be linked no matter what we do. If you want a bloodborne 2, then the night of the hunt must come again. I think the night of black knives was set to happen with or without Ranni's involvement. It could be that said night was some sort of ritual sacrifice that Marika had planned to solidify her golden age for eternity, much like Gwen's ritual of linking the fire. The possible difference is that maybe Ranni's interference changed the ritual and resulted in the shattering. It's also entirely possible that we've already been caught in the cycle intended to prolong the age of gold without even realizing it yet. From where we're standing right now, I think Elden Ring, from a story telling perspective, is what if Gwen hadn't been as successful as he was. Something we'll need to see a sequel in order to confirm.

[@LordofDoors37]

Marika's reasoning for shattering the Elden Ring has always been shrouded in mystery, perhaps in the DLC we'll hopefully obtain something that'll give us a clearer picture.

[@FiguringOutFantasy]

Hey Jake, love your vids. I want to be able to utilize cinematic in-game shots myself as footage for some videos but have no idea how you do them. Is there a mod for Elden Ring? I don't want to use footage that isn't mine if I can help it. Thanks!

[@SierraHallsLewis]

4:38 just marking to show my husband

[@doodlebop7323]

Gave me chills realizing this

[@RKGrizz]

My only contention to your proposed timeline is when Marika tells her demigod children to fight and make something of themselves. How could she do that after the shattering and going missing? I feel that she did it before Godwin's death almost as a cover for Ranni's future actions in helping Marika break the influence of the Greater Will. Also, the Golden Order is not the same as the Greater Will. She isn't stuck by the Greater Will, her own creation of the Golden Order did that.