Why Zack Snyder's AWFUL Take On Superman Doesn't Work

[@christopherjustice6411]

The one thing Snyder got right about Super Man. Is the fact that he’s probably a Kansas City Royals fan.

[@tevenpowell8023]

Imagine SuperMan showing up to throw the first pitch at a Beisball game. That'd be so cool

[@christopherjustice6411]

@@tevenpowell8023 That’s actually totally something super man would do. The dude’s a total Boy Scout.

[@tytar1037]

KC! CHIEFS

[@oh_god_dammit]

​@@christopherjustice6411 Boy Scout? He never even made it to his first merit badge

[@vandy5549]

Why would Superman be a fan of a team from Missouri?

[@Melggart]

One of my biggest problems with Snider’s Superman is that he changed one of the core aspects of Superman: he has the BEST parents in the DC universe. The Kents being good is one of the reasons Clark is good. He is a well-adjusted individual that had a happy stable childhood. To change that is the same as having the Waynes alive or Uncle Ben being power hungry and abusive to Aunt May. You can tell that story, but I don’t think it should be the main canon of your universe.

[@BobPantsSpongeSquare97]

If Im not mistaken he took the Injustice video games as a model for his Superman

[@Pyre]

One of the most deeply uncomfortable things was the slow realization, via vidro essays and points made by friends, of how deeply, spectacularly awful Jonathon Kent was as a father and person. Mind, Zack Snyder is also *a bad person* . Read up anything on the man and you figure out really quick how he could get so many things and characters so wrong.

[@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286]

@@Pyre bad person?

[@BlitzkriegOmega]

​@@Pyre I don't recall the Kents ever being awful people. at least not with the DC Media I've read/watched. They were usually depicted as mild-mannered, hard-working farm folk who raised their son to the absolute best of their ability. and when the Superpowers started to manifest, they lead Clark to use his gift for nothing less than Good. honestly, one of the funniest things to me is with the DCAU interpretation of the Kents, where Clark visits his parents every Christmas. The Kents use a layer of lead-foil in their present wrapping so Clark can't peek into the boxes with X-Ray Vision. Both the fact that the Kents are still viewed as his family and the fact that the Kents have some levels of Superhero-Proofing in their household never really pegged me as the Kents being bad parents. Quite the opposite, honestly.

[@ich3730]

@@Pyre chill out bro, the man lost his daughter... its always easy to talk tough on the internet but you would never say that irl

[@BlitzkriegOmega]

Superman stops being Superman when he stops being a Boy Scout. the biggest thing about Clark as superman is that he wants to be an uncomplicated force of good in a very complicated world. When that tenet of his character is broken, he becomes a force to be feared on sight rather than one to be relieved to on sight. This can obviously be played for good drama, as was done in the DCAU. Snyder's Superman is just an unstoppable edge lord who is written like a messiah.

[@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286]

not exactly

[@drpepperman2765]

@@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286No, exactly this. Superman is THE big blue boyscout, the one person even Batman looks up to as a friend and inspiration, BECAUSE he’s uncompromisingly good. If you’re Superman isn’t a boyscout, you’re not writing Superman. It’s just another evil Superman clone like homelamder and Omni-Man

[@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286]

@@drpepperman2765 you didn't understand what I meant.

[@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286]

@@drpepperman2765 ☀Superman(SHINING ANGEL OF LIGHT😇🕊☀️) is literally ️Hope,Light and Happiness☀. 🌑Batman(DARK DEMON OF DARKNESS👿🦇🌑) is literally Justice,Darkness and fear🌑 and ☀Wonder Woman(SHINING ANGEL OF LIGHT👸🏻🕊☀️) is literally Truth,light and Peace☀. Although DCEU Superman isn't exactly good and needed better writing, it wasn't bad either. ☀️Superman is supposed to represent HOPE, he is Light personified☀️

[@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286]

@@drpepperman2765 literally already did

[@vishaansingh1019]

Snyder is someone obsessed with the visuals and aesthetic of a work rather than its core story and values. He'd rather have a striking image immediately of Superman snapping someone's neck than take a movie to set up the no-kill rule so that Superman being forced to break that rule has an actual impact.

[@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286]

@@michaelraymon111 Wonder Woman doesn't kill.

[@JoseRS1186]

​@@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286 She snapped Max Lord's neck with the golden lasso

[@michaelraymon111]

@@JoseRS1186 and batman has killed the kgbeast and superman the pocket dimension phantom zoners. But none of you say they are pro killing.

[@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286]

@@JoseRS1186 that was awful writing, literally garbage

[@William-Morey-Baker]

​@@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286 😂😅😂 yeah... she does.... she is frequently depicted as willing to take life in order to save others

[@LectricVonThunder]

One important part of Superman's history i'd like to see brought back in media, Superman hates fascists and power abusers. Not just because he is very powerful but still respects people, but also because his home planet was taken over by a fascist regime that refused to acknowledge the impending doom of Krypton. They actively supressed knowledge of their planet dying and stopped anyone from leaving which is why it is such a big deal his parents saved him while the rest of kryptons people went extinct. He definitely would've learned about this from his parent's recordings. I feel like this would be SO relevant today on multiple levels. Even down to why he becomes a journalist, using the power of his words to look out for the little guy. Why him and Lex Luthor are perfectly diametrically opposed to one another. And its just a great and relatable immigrants tale and would give him a strong character theme like Batman.

[@xx_isabel_the_wolf_xx3869]

I feel like that would be a really compelling interpretation of superman, hell maybe even a conversation with batman or green arrow about what it means to be s hero, and he like brings up his extreme disapproval for people who abuse power and opress the innocent because it was the abuse of power that put his planet in harms way, and he doesn't wanna let that happen to earth.

[@75aces97]

Funny thing is, if a screenwriter or director faithfully played up that angle, they'd be accused of making a manipulative, "woke" attack on the present right. Which it would be. 😁 Well, at least if the kind of people who use such terms were articulate enough to critique anything. But the original books and other media explicitly pitted him against fascists. At the time such a stance was pretty popular and uncontroversial. But also, yes, as you say, for all it's technological progress, Krypton was mired in destructive, reactionary politics.

[@xx_isabel_the_wolf_xx3869]

Screw it, MrBeast as green arrow

[@Fenris30]

THAT's WHY he goes after BATMAN. Fuck people did you even Watch the freaking movie?

[@thehandsomemutt]

The moment Kryptonians discover space travel and colonisation is the moment an authoritarian government cannot contain/quarantine all Kryptonians, going extinct. That is a plothole that always bother me in Supes' origin story

[@theorangeninja6486]

im pretty sure zack snyder is on record as saying the classic superman is something he thinks is "unrealistic", which really makes you wonder why he got picked to make a fucking superman movie

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

Also literally quoting Manchaster Black, a character created the edgelord superheroes in Superman iconic issue called "What's so funny about Truth, Justice and American Way?". AND HE DID IT BY ACCIDENT.

[@ocularpatdown]

And this is what I can’t stand MoS. Zack Snyder has NO understanding of Superman and did a *really* shitty job with this movie. Snyder’s style is ponderous and pretentious, the completely wrong choice to make any Superman movie!

[@YungPinoy]

After watching interviews and movies of Snyder about superheroes I ask myself ‘does this guy even like or understand superheroes and Superman?’ Also why even let him direct these movies.

[@Ian_sothejokeworks]

Snyder only seems to think of superheroes as Greek myth + rock god.

[@YungPinoy]

I mean I would superheroes would be the closest to modern day mythology. But goddamn Snyder just doesn’t get what makes these characters mythic. He just makes them edgelord, all flash and no substance cardboard cutouts of themselves.

[@meprivate6923]

He's a big Ayn Rand fan. And he took a lot from the Superman v Batman comic who's artist and writer was also a big Ayn Rand fan.

[@Fenris30]

@@Ian_sothejokeworks That is how they are Portrayed in DC comics. You are thinking of the Marvel type of Hero. DC is Gods trying to be Human, Marvel is Human's trying to be Gods.

[@Argumemnon]

He really gets Watchmen, there's at least that. And his version of Justice League is much more hopeful than I had expected.

[@goblintwo]

Based on everything James Gunn has said, he and Vaush are in complete agreement about Superman. I have a feeling legacy is going to be everything he’s asking for

[@torchbird2860]

I really really need Legacy to be a solid 9/10. I’m so scared for the future of my favorite character in fiction if he gets another bad film.

[@lukemccann8930]

I'm not the biggest superman fan so hopefully this doesn't sound too harsh but at least take heart that his movies are being directed by an accidental fascist anymore. I'd sure feel that way if it happened to Spiderman 😅

[@torchbird2860]

@@lukemccann8930 Superman deserves Justice as being portrayed as the hero for the oppressed once more. Vaush is right, he’s not perfect but he tries so hard to be what humanity needs while trying to also be an idealistic version of what humanity can be.

[@lukemccann8930]

@Torchbird absolutely agree, was just meant that having a director who doesn't think "what makes him right is he's the strongest" is a step towards correcting it. I'm not as emotionally invested in it so I won't be as angry or heartbroken if the next director fails to fulfill Supermans potential but I hope you and his other fans will at the least get a step in the right direction that gives you hope that someday you'll get the adaptation you all deserve.

[@reclusiarchgrimaldus1269]

@@lukemccann8930 "Accidental fascist." Can you explain?

[@isabelmcgaugh711]

It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the core characteristics of Superman as a character. If you wanted to make a gritty depressing Superman, do an injustice storyline and make him the villain. They’re almost treating him like an anti hero or something and it just doesn’t work. You have other edgey characters, use one of them if you wanted to go that direction with the movies. Superman is a golden retriever. Yes he’s strong, but even without that, he’s a jolly kind upstanding person who wants to help. The new Superman doesn’t feel like Superman because none of his core personality traits are emphasized or really even present.

[@Knight-Bishop]

Hell you can even still make him genuinely badass regardless of being overpowered: his "World Made of Cardboard" monologue to Darkseid in the animated series, comes to mind.

[@nathaniels9141]

DC couldn't beat Marvel with regular and fun super hero movies. So they decided to make everyone edge lords instead.

[@firstlast9846]

When I found out that it was essentially JUST Henry Cavil pushing for a joyous superman - - I felt kinda bad for him.. he wanted to be a big dork in MOS but was told to be brooding

[@Westlander857]

What I get from Superman is that just because you live a mundane life in our less-than-ideal system (Clark Kent working a boring office job) doesn’t mean your life can’t have purpose or that you can’t be a positive and uplifting presence for others. You and your character don’t have to be bound by the system we live in. Just my two cents.

[@rashaadpratt2011]

I’ve definitely come around to a corny portrayal of Superman even down to the suit being cloth. Like why would he care about having a futuristic militarized suit, dude is already invulnerable. He would revel in his own camp

[@timmyturner1458]

Nah that’s retarded what happens when darksied pulls up? Then he’ll wish he had something a little denser than cloth. Or even if he was saving people from a house fire, he’d be standing there butt ass naked.

[@tastyhaze2058]

Maggie Mae Fish has a great breakdown of Snyder's Superman. She correctly points out that his portrayal of Rorschach and his portrayal of Batman are largely indistinguishable, despite the fact that Rorschach was literally intended to be satire of Batman (and another detective character that was popular at the time). Rorschach's death scene in the movie vs. the comic is so far apart that it kinda shatters any doubt on the framing. In the movie it's a great tragedy that the film pays tribute to, in the comic he's just a fascist who gets turned into a smear of blood on the snow.

[@kidkangaroo5213]

Common Maggie W

[@JonahPleatherbooth]

This is "The Question" erasure and I wont stand for it.

[@robinnadjiZ]

Maggie’s video essays are atrociously bad. It’s just “Snyder is Fascist” hyperbole. A conclusion you can only reach if you ignore the themes of his work that are quite empowering and progressive. (Her vids reek confirmation bias)

[@Daedalus9393]

@@robinnadjiZ dude Synder’s favorite author is literally Ayn Rand… he’s not at all a progressive, he’s an avowed and vocal Randian Objectivist who always puts those themes in his work and whose dream is to make a big budget “fountainhead” movie

[@ich3730]

@@Daedalus9393 thats... not what being a fascist means... i highly suggest you read up on the topic

[@KnightofEkron]

Snyder's version of Superman is honestly one of the worst things I've ever seen. It's like having Ayn Rand write about the Crucifixion.

[@nicosilva8724]

its exactly that

[@grandadmiralmitthrawnuruod5011]

A Vaush media take I could actually agree with? Impossible

[@brasswing2681]

Once in a blue moon, vaush’s media take is good

[@void-creature]

I do like larger than life characters, but I also enjoy the inverse. *ANDOR* is actually a great example of a show with basically no larger than life characters at all, in a setting that has previously been dominated by such people. It makes stakes much higher, because while heroes and legends don't just suddenly die, but regular people do. The universe and struggle also seems a lot more "real", because the characters react to in a way we can relate to easier. That's why the Empire seems the most evil it's ever been, because it's victims aren't plucky heroes or nameless extras, but regular people we've grown attached to. It really shows how faschism crushes people under its boot, and really sells the absolute necessity of fighting it no matter the cost.

[@PnCBio]

Superman is woke AF. Created by a Canadian, and is often credited for making the KKK unpopular via radio dramas.

[@falconeshield]

Wait weren't his creators Jewish?

[@PnCBio]

@@falconeshield Indeed they were, Shuster & Siegel.

[@falconeshield]

​@@PnCBio Oh cool!

[@t-qb1sq]

The effect that Superman had on the KKK was what really made me idolize him as larger than life. I really like Psycho Mantis and the Weeping Angels, who are dedicated to making you feel unsafe even through a screen. Superman is basically a heroic twist on this put on steroids from a dimension no one knew existed, and no one ever will again. Superman wrecked the KKK and THEY NEVER RECOVERED. Writers can destroy all the fake universes they want, but this level of real, awestruck power is ONCE in a lifetime. This is the strongest character ever written.

[@ragglefraggle9111]

Three things that are very partially true.

[@FeebleAntelope]

17:36 - Actually gets to Superman lol EDIT: Also, it still kills me how joyless, drab, and cynical Snyder's Superman was. His parents literally tell him he should just let people die and that he doesn't owe the world anything. It's that Randian bullshit fantasy that libertarians believe they did it all on their own, all while growing up and living with the help of their communities and public services. Plus, they literally write him engaging in war crimes. It's insane that Snyder's view of the source material of this boy scout is this decrepit and PASSIVE in story terms: Snyder Superman spends his time in his first movie refusing the call to adventure until the story happens to him and he's forced to confront Zod.

[@brunecmatic]

I think the more interesting aspect to this situation to me is the psychology behind the reaction some of these people have to the Superman changes from the true source material. It seems that when you take a more "soft/lighthearted" aspect of a character and make it "dark, more brutal" it doesn't bother those same people nowhere near as much as the other way around. There would be riots and boycotts if a Batman was more of a happy and joyful character in a movie. It hits at the same "alpha male/red pill" audience. It exposes alot of their true insecurities inside of them imo

[@MrElbowsmash]

I think fans gotten used to a positive Batman again. The Batman dealt with the fact that a grim and dark Batman is a Bad Thing, Actually, and if he was ever going to make a change, he had to represent hope as much as, if not more than, vengeance. Not exactly happy, per se, but it's a start. Baby steps, for baby bats. Also, Man Of Steel is pretty universally panned, so I don't think anyone buys into edgy Superman but Zack Snyder. The only bad political takes I ever see concerning Superman are that he shouldn't take on social issues, like that wasn't what Superman started on. I've read his early comics, and I need him beating sense into landlords and racists again.

[@andrewgreenwood9068]

1966 batman is the best batman.

[@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286]

@@MrElbowsmash 🌑🦇👿batman is a dark demon of darkness. He's justice, darkness, vengeance, night and fear👿🦇🌑

[@diegonolasco4356]

Finally Vaush is covering the important issues.

[@c.m.9369]

It‘s such a shame! Because Henry Cavill is actually a damn good casting choice for Superman! He really looks the part, and that guy can REALLY pull of „chill, confident, optimistic, kind guy“! I hate the fact that we never get to see a good Henry-Cavill-Superman-movie!

[@theunknowncommenter725]

Actually we did see a good Henry Cavill Superman movie. Three of them! Man of Steel Batman v Superman Zack Snyder's Justice League

[@matthewmason7792]

@@theunknowncommenter725you’re baiting right?

[@Ammy-q4w]

I feel like the only reason people tolerate his Superman is because of Henry Cavill. It's a shame Henry was never given better material to work with. He did well with what little good Snyder let him have.

[@ocularpatdown]

Henry did his very best with the hack writing he was given.

[@theunknowncommenter725]

​@@ocularpatdown by Josh wheaton. Zack Snyder did nothing wrong. Mainly because he wasn't the writer

[@theunknowncommenter725]

He was given fine material in there. You just need to pay attention to it.

[@asArsenic]

From Avatar again Iroh is a good example of a deeply aspirational character. He functionally is flawless and experiences very little actual character growth. However, that doesn’t become a problem because he’s earned every bit of it. All of the tragedy of his backstory serves to elevate him, informs us how the protagonists, Aang and Zuko have to grow.

[@werwolfnate]

A character that's still technically flawed, but their presence in the story is after they've dealt with them.

[@firstlast9846]

*You already know - when Superman : Legacy rolls around* and a smiley Superman is on screen.. morons like Nerdrotic and Tyrone Magnus are gonna yell either “It’s woke” or “it ain’t Snyder tho” I’m sorry but Snyder literally fractured an entire fandom which is kinda crazy

[@ArcologyCrab-gq9ub]

Lmao it’s already begun to happen now that the trailers out

[@thegreatkenji]

"Thor is not aspirational at all" he says totally ignoring the arc where Thor Fails miserably against Thanos, falls into a depression, Gains a shit load of weight and has to go on a journey of self discovery to find out he's still worthy of Mjolnir even in his fallen state. He then regroups and helps kick ass.

[@ImGiovanna]

I don't even like MCU anymore but i don't really understand where all this dismissal of their character writing is coming from when i feel like that was one of the aspects they did really good in back then. Feels like people are just finding every excuse to hate on the MCU just because it's cool and acceptable to do so, even though there are already plenty to dislike about it

[@trianglemoebius]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about post-Endgame Thor. Endgame Thor was great, but there's no way around his rechacterisation in "Love and Thunder" being god-awful, and a lot closer to what Vaush is describing.

[@coolidgedollar2154]

@@trianglemoebius I didn't watch the whole movie but I watched Thor's first battle scene in _Love & Thunder_ and thought, "So he's back to being a douchebag now? Like in film one?" Perhaps I just don't understand Waititi's angle but it seems like a middle finger to everyone.

[@ImGiovanna]

If so then i agree with him. I'm just personally reminded of my time in film school where we were still just finished with Endgame and a bunch of my classmates were already talking shit about the MCU characters. Couldn't help but think they were kinda snobby lol

[@mechanomics2649]

Vaush has a bad media take, in other news floor is made of floor.

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

I couldnt agree more. I hate seeing Superman being forced to make tough decisions, like kill a supervillian who was going to incinerate a family, or beat up an alien monster who was going to blow up the Planet, killing everyone Superman cares about. Sucks when that happens. I prefer modern Marvel where they cant maintain serious tension for more than 2 seconds before cracking a bad joke.

[@RevolutionaryLoser]

I can't tell if you are joking. Was that the intent?

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

@@RevolutionaryLoser /s

[@gianvittoriomarti9393]

This is the problem with you Snyderfans, you think that we want to see a goofy Superman all the time, that's not what we want! He is not supposed to be like this for all time, but he is supposed to be like that OVERALL, or at least he should BECOME like that! We hate Marvel's annoying jokes as much as the next person! We don't have a problem if the character has dark stories or if he is forced to make tough decisions, we got a problem with the execution of that! Yeah, Superman has to kill Zod, is a powerful scene, with the scream and all, but after that scene the movie cameback to a light tone (or it has light tone for the first time!) and it seems like nothing bad happened, Clark has killed someone and after 5 minutes of a tragic scene we got: " Hi, I am Clark Kent and I'm happy to be here at the Daily Planet! 😁😁😁😁" Then in BvS he is even more depressed! Why we can't have at least one scene where he saves a little child with a genuine smile on his face, where his suits looks like actual Blue instead of a Desatured color??? Instead we got a depressed Superman for 2 hours and 31 minutes (3 hours for the Ultimate Version) of the movie! This can be frustrating for many and It seems like we are watching an emotionless robot!

[@sanitorz232]

One of the great things about Richard Donner's Superman was his real-life limitations. He can't save Pa Kent from a heart attack cause there are things that even Superman can't save you from. That scene is so well done too, it's just a wide shot of Pa Kent dying yet it conveys so much information. Contrast that to Man of Steel and you get the dumb tornado scene. Speaking of the 78' version, Clark is also just really likable. There's the great scene when he takes off his glasses and pretends to be Superman, the scene where he grabs a football and throws it when no one's looking, etc. Just dumb shit Clark Kent would do.

[@CaptainWoggy]

Superman the Movie is the best portrayal of Clark Kent I've seen. This includes comics, animated movies, etc. Christopher Reeve does an incredible job with it.

[@andrewgreenwood9068]

I think it is important to have media with heroes who are good in in an uncomplicated way. People who will just do the right thing whenever they can

[@creecher1118]

I've described my ideal Superman movie as feeling like a Ghibli film. No overarching villain, no big dramatic third act full of CGI. I just want 2 hours of watching a day in the life of Sups with some positive vibes.

[@ImGiovanna]

I'd be so down for this. I've been watching a lot of shows recently and it feels like none of them are willing to just give us some time to unwind and hang out with the characters. Every episode has to have some sort of threat or villain to beat, even when they make u think that it's gonna be a chill episode lol. I feel like we need more action media that isn't afraid to lose their audience and just give us a bunch of time to have casual fun with the cast

[@RRVCrinale]

You know what we don't see often enough in Superman movies that vibes with that? Superman facing a disaster, natural or otherwise. In the Ghibli lane, look at Kiki's Delivery Service and the crashing airship. Bookend the movie with crises with no villain which Superman makes exponentially easier to navigate not just because he's faster than a bullet and more powerful than a locomotive, but he brings a clarity and calm to the situation that everyone around him feeds off of to save themselves while he saves the day.

[@firstlast9846]

I said something similar a while ago - just 2 hours of a nihilistic reporter following around Clark for a week - and slowly becoming evermore hopeful

[@SoulKingBK]

My adventures with Superman

[@theunknowncommenter725]

Sounds boring as hell. Needs a supervillain in there.

[@ShawnWilliams314]

The Snyderverse made me so mad i started a whole KZbin channel to complain about it.

[@celery8059]

Imo vaush is describing the kind of character who is optimistic ,faces hardship , abuse, trauma and comes out maintaining their optimism and not turning into the joker.

[@JonahPleatherbooth]

Based Earth 3 Joker

[@celery8059]

My current favorite example is (mairimashita) Iruma-kun !

[@Daedalus9393]

The thing that Vaush is circling around with Rick is that the narrative never directs the viewer to idolize Rick or aspire to emulate him, in fact the opposite, despite all his power and competence the narrative is constantly beating the viewer over the head with the message that Rick is miserable petty and pathetic and you don’t want to be like him, despite all his power

[@nanananananananananananana9430]

I think the whole aspirational thing also I think works with Kenshiro from "Fist Of The North Star". The guy is basically just fucking invincible but I love how he doesn't brag about it and has his morals for how he uses his powers. He protects the poor and weak and kills those who abuse their power to oppress those much smaller than them.

[@spidermansjunk6183]

Snyder only cared for the powers superman had and could care less about him as a person. I just read Superm for all seasons and that does a great job of presenting a superman that is powerful but not perfect and just wants to do good.

[@MomirViggwilv]

8:44 "Any female version of these characters?" Taylor Hebert from Worm. Fits the description almost to a T. Superhuman levels of dedication, willpower, and willingness to self-sacrifice.

[@fizzledizzle62]

Taylor is not aspirational in the fucking slightest. She's incredibly powerful, and believes the concept of de-escalation is for idiots, and has the power to justify literally any atrocity she commits. Girl literally utilitarian calculus'd her way into shooting a baby with a Glock, she is not the kind of character Vowsh is talking about

[@erikbrock5444]

TJ I think put it best about Picard, and the same could be said of Superman: he embodies everything that the best parts of us deeply aspire to.

[@elysahatestostudy9364]

Aang is a pacifist in the sense that he'd rather avoid fighting if possible, but not a useless pacifist that would refuse to fight even when necessary.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

“You have no enemies”

[@REVITALIGO]

​@@banquetoftheleviathan1404 Thors right?

[@yourneighbourtodoro]

Thank god you mentioned Star Trek because that's what I was thinking about. Picard, Sisko, and Janeway rule because they do slip and fuck up, but they are, at their cores, wise professionals doing their best in the situations they're in, and are still aspirational. (Also, Picard suffers a lot of trauma at the hands of the Borg and the Cardassians, while still retaining that likable, larger than life feeling) The thing I can't stand about Star Trek: Discovery specifically is because of how stupid and miserable all the characters are. Nobody in that cast is admirable or inspiring, which is the whole god damn point of Trek. The writers even explicitly said they wanted their characters to feel more human and relatable than previous Star Trek characters (which seems like a backhand to previous shows), but they did that by turning up the Whine-O-Meter. Their flaws make them boring and exhausting to watch, whereas Picard, Janeway, and Sisko's flaws (for the most part) make them fascinating.

[@sum8601]

I agree with this take but I don't think its a Snyder thing, that era (2010s'ish?) was generally producing grittier more "realistic" and cynical takes on characters and franchises. This is the same issue with "Nu-trek" which presents a darker more violent version of the Star Trek universe, they did the same shit with stargate too. I do however feel like some of the more recent productions are starting to calm down and embrace a bit of light hearted fun again.

[@toneloak]

Yeah, he has trash takes and thinks he's original.

[@SirThinks2Much]

Xena was mentioned as a female counterpart to the idealized aspirational character, and i think she counts. Shes also interesting in that shes canonically a former villain. In the show practically everyone knows who she is, and either runs away from her, wants to kill her, or fawns over her (occasionally trying to tempt her back into villainy). The show doesnt shy away from the evil she did and neither does the character, but she's constantly trying to do better and inspire others to a superhuman degree.

[@BlisaBLisa]

it rly feels like those movies just miss the emotional core of superman and why those stories work, superman appeals to the desire to always be protected from injustice and harm, hes a very powerful dude with a strong moral compass and someone who will take the time to help individual people with smaller problems, it appeals to the desire to be cared for no matter who you are. idk I feel like these superman adaptations take for granted that thats not meaningless even if its simple and positive. the way jacob geller described a lot of superheroes as being a lot like the golem is spot on (and also makes it super weird that snyder keeps doing jesus symbolism with superman lol, a canonically jewish character created by a jewish guy)

[@AVClarke]

Ripley from the Aliens films is a great heroic ideal. Tough as nails, courageous, smart, can still radiate femininity, but it isn't what defines her.

[@GiuseppeMario-d8y]

The most frustrating parts of Batman v Superman is that as obsessed with moments and cool imagery as Snyder is, the movie continually sets up some great Superman moments yet seems hell-bent on not capitalizing on any of them. Oh, Superman sees news of a burning building with someone trapped inside. Are we going to see the iconic shirt-tear and see the rescue in real-time? No, he changes off-screen, we hear him flying away while the shot is focused on Batfleck's scowl and then we cut to the _aftermath_ of the rescue. Superman's in the Capital about to testify before Congress (in a smaller courtroom, for some reason) Is he going to give a rousing, inspiring speech? No, the building immediately blows up and he stands in the inferno looking sad. Superman's at the peak of a snowy mountain! He's going to build the Fortress of Solit-_sorry_ I meant listen to Ghost Dad tell a shit story about how being good is actually bad because dear old dad did it once and the neighbor's horses drowned, but it's worth doing because pussy. It's the title fight! Batman vs Superman, man vs god, brains vs brawn, the master of stealth vs the man who can see through walls and hear a pin-drop from 100 miles away, the man who thought of everything vs the man who can _do_ everything! This epic clash of ideals...comes in the form of Superman landing exactly three punches, flying once, using his heat vision once, and shoving Batman like twice and spending the rest of the fight getting his teeth kicked in, then is about to be stabbed by a spear but then doesn't because Martha.

[@Getawayk]

I think the symbol of hope thing might come off as preachy and corny in this edgy era. it’s like people expect DC to be dark all the time

[@nicosilva8724]

Tyler Hoechlin its doing the best live action portrayal of Superman since Reeve

[@shawnhenderson2091]

Even though I agree Snyder's movies lacked a ton, mostly Vaush's takes on movies and television (outside anime which I don't watch a ton of) are the one category he touches on that I more often than not find myself disagreeing with him on, he's like the Jimmy Dore of movie hot takes.

[@gojiraguy200]

Zack Snyder is great with visuals but god is he an awful storyteller. Not to mention, I hate the spiteful libertarian streak in his work.

[@heavyjukebox6483]

What really woke me up about how cool Superman is, is the fact that he’s the anti-Batman. Their on the same side but their approaches to crime fighting are completely different.

[@dilloncooper600]

What did Vaush say at 15:39 that got censored? I have no idea what word is long enough to fit that length of time that applies to Senku, and would need to be censored

[@georgevelis4651]

im sorry but i dont think complaining about his APPEARANCE makes any sort of point about the writing of his character. It doesn't help that you obviously have not watched the movies.

[@kellyloganme]

Agree on Picard - Not that an entire dimension of ultra powerful beings, the Q, singled Picard out to represent the fate of humanity, and then kept coming back because Picard was so cool.

[@mkultra21]

I would argue that The Doctor used to be one of these characters, but in the pursuit of realism, the writers created a Doctor who had been traumatized.

[@FuzzballStudios]

Actually, you’re slightly overestimating Zack Snyder’s competence as a storyteller. It’s way worse than “oh, it must have been so hard growing up invulnerable!” The in-story justification for not-Superman to be an angry edgelord is that not-Clark embodies the repulsive Objectivist ideals of stoicism and selfishness. He acts like this because he doesn’t think humans are worthy of him saving them. The message is unironically that Superman doesn’t owe humanity anything, and that we are unworthy of his greatness. Because Zack Snyder’s an Objectivist, you see. I mean, this is the director who made an adaptation of Watchmen where fascist monsters like Rorschach and the Comedian (essentially villains in the book) are reframed as cool, edgy heroes. 🤢🤮

[@voiceofreason467]

At no point in the movie is Superman portrayed as an angry edgelord and at no point in the movie is Superman ever portrayed as an Objectivist. He masters his power at the behest of his real father Jor-El so he can help people in an effort to make them see the best side of themselves. He is told to inspire people with his power and not to make the same mistakes that Krypton did. An Objectivist portrayal of Superman would have him simply be an inconsiderate asshole, someone who is concerned only with the people he cares about and his own personal power. It would portray his mastery of his power as a means of self-actualization, of asserting who the real you is. But none of this happens. I think you just watched a bunch of deranged takes on the topic without ever watching the movie. That or you're just lying because you hate Zack because you've been told to hate him.

[@robertanderson4921]

The original Superman is still the best live-action adaptation of the character. Not saying that the other actors were bad, I think Henry Cavill was probably a good choice to play him, but the original was the only movie that took the character and portrayed him completely sincerely. I think Captain America in the MCU is the perfect example of how DC should handle Superman. Any superhero who is the archetype of "good" the way Superman (or Captain America) is supposed to be is SUPER EASY to want to deconstruct. So basically every version of Superman goes the easy route and tries to portray the boy scout in either a tongue-in-cheek way or tries to deconstruct the tropes and say "good guy is bad actually?" When the MCU made Captain America, they could have done this too - make him a 1940s racist or sexist, use him as a criticism of America by making him a conservative jingoist or something - but instead, they portrayed him completely sincerely. Captain America in the MCU is portrayed as a good man who is steadfast in his morals and always tries to do the right thing. He's not perfect and sometimes he makes mistakes - the Tony/Bucky thing was tough for him because he had loyalties to conflicting parties etc. If DC would just do the same with Superman we could finally have a good adaptation again.

[@trianglemoebius]

Totally agree. Supes and Cap are, at their very heart, hope. Hope is not something can be portrayed without absolute sincerity, because when you do that it cases to be hope; it is then cynicism.

[@PerplexedPlayers]

the trouble with "Mary Sue" is that its kind of an empty criticism on its own. The type of narrative a story is largely determines how capable a main character *should* be, it would be missing the point to complain that James Bond or John Wick are too capable. What Vaush is getting at (and having trouble articulating) is that it's ok for there to be stories where the main character is a larger than life mega cool super person if the point of the story is to convey messages of right and wrong through them (e.g Picard and Luffy). it becomes a problem when the narrative is not constructed in a way that accommodates highly capable characters with mostly flat arcs. Rey was rejected by the people in large part because she inhabited a world whose principal characters had been flawed and attached to a heroes journey type narrative. When imperfection is the standard, perfection feels fake and wrong. Star wars is a series where weakness is something that can lead a character down a dark path and destroy them, Rey showing no apparent weaknesses while still occupying a Star Wars heroes journey made her very existence contradict the world she lived in. Myself and everyone I know was more interested in Finn as a character (in ep 7 at least) because right from the get go he had all the makings of a good Star Wars protagonist. There is no one correct way to write characters or stories, but one should always make sure that their characters fit in the story that they are making.

[@StareachValcin]

I feel that Zack Snyder's take on Superman completely missed the point of his character in all of his films he directed. Zack simply makes Superman a byproduct of a cynical world rather than representing best of humanity due to being raised by normal people who show him how good humanity as a whole can be in spite of the bad in the world. Superman at the end of the day is a good man trying to do the right thing and help people because he cares. Zack Snyder is the wrong director for Superman, and just doesn't understand who Superman is and what he stands for. Zack doesn't even allow Henry Cavill to be Superman, much less show why his version of Superman wants to be Superman at all.

[@Tiny_and_Reese]

Every time I hear someone use the word aspirational, I think back to the furry community and my job in it, which is to draw them. And every time I ask people what their character means to them it boils down to three things. Either their character is aspirational: "It's something I want to be personality wise.", representative, "This is who I am and I want to be understood.", or ideological, "This represents an idea that I think is important." You can mix and match these things, and typically you would. Like, how does someone aspire to be someone they can't even relate to? But I think we write characters in much the same way!

[@pivotguydc1149]

But Aang IS one of those characters who "rocks, but has a history of trauma, abandonment issues, and survivor's guilt". We like him because they meshed those sad elements with his upstanding inspirational qualities well.

[@tasha7726]

In Snyder's defense everything he learned about Superman he learned from watching Smallville and the people who produced that didn't get Superman either.

[@EdWiley671]

I think he just means characters that are sincerely optimistic and hopeful, and who don’t use their flaw as a way of counteracting the perceived cringiness of being sincerely optimistic and hopeful. It’s kind of like how MCU overuses comedy to diffuse the perceived absurdity of people running around in tights.

[@clairemckinley691]

I just watched the new guardians of the galaxy movie and I think it’s honestly a pretty good representation of the type of media Ian was talking about at the end here. It was earnest and honest and about characters simply and wholly caring about each other very deeply. Yeah, it maybe came across as cheesy at times but it really felt like a breath of fresh air compared to a lot of other mcu movies. It was a joyous celebration of how far these characters have come in the time we have seen them and it was just really beautiful

[@orboakin8074]

Vaush, I disagree with you on a lot but this is the one time I absolutely agree and respect your take. Snyder messed up with his take on Superman and his cast of characters. Makes me appreciate the Superman and Lois cartoon on HBO. This Superman cartoon were such a surprise to me! I have been a life-long Superman fan since my childhood in Nigeria and I love this! This version of Lois was also another surprise. She is a gonzo journalist and strong female without any feminist nonsense and she looks attractive. Clark is heroic, lovable, and not a cynical evil "realistic" character like Snyder kept making him. It's like westerners actually decided to make a good Super hero show devoid of toxic identity politics, with great characters a d writing and also a positive masculine character and feminine character😯👍

[@WBWhiting]

There is a scene in Man of Steel where Superman is learning to fly for the first time and his face is so filled with sinister glee. I have no idea why they chose the angles they did, why they kept the footage they did. You do not see on his face 'learning the joy of flight' like you see in all other superhero movies, you see in his face 'the villain triumphing over an obstacle'.

[@Latentheatfussion]

You have nothing to say this is just straight up hate and makes literally no sense

[@WBWhiting]

@@Latentheatfussion So you had your eyes closed when you watched the movie?

[@Latentheatfussion]

@@WBWhiting and you who had your eyes open decided to say the opposite of what you saw, how does he's smile even make snyder a hack, you could have brought up better arguments than this but i don't think you have anything to say

[@anthonyjohnson6199]

I'm fine with characters like Picard being ridicolously OP becauase he's a captain in the navy he has decades of experience. Conversely look st Wesley Crusher this annoying little puke that routinely solves problems that adults with decades more experience can't. Its infuriating because he is a character meant to pander to the fandom as an audience self insert.

[@lewisbaldwin9683]

Brandon Ralph’s superman costume that shows up at the end of crisis is peak superman. No matter how much shit he went through he still embraced tomorrow

[@oldenough5424]

It astounds me how the guy DC chose to kickstart their cinematic universe is the guy who didnt want an actual conversation between batman and superman to play out because he thought they look weird in their costumes

[@antondevonlh]

OSP coming out with an episode on Bathos right at the same time as this drops to perfectly highlight what Vaush is talking about at the end is just *chef kiss* We can't make anything heartfelt and hopeful in media these days because studios need to be "in on the joke," the joke to them being "who would actually look up to these people," as if whole generations didn't do just that, leading to them becoming the household names they are now.

[@colekennedy-gooch6861]

I think one of the worst parts of it is that henry cavill could have been a great and iconic superman if he wasnt given the shit hand of being directed by zack snyder. Let superman be a larger than life figure whos a little bit of a dork

[@The_DGO]

Keep in mind that the villagers in Dr. Stone are exceptionally inbred

[@stewardofconsciousness9781]

Thor has character flaws, it was a huge theme of the first movie and remained consistent throughout his other appearances.

[@kaleb2643]

Thing is, Batman is still an optimistic paragon most of the time, he's just goth

[@blorkpovud1576]

I kinda blame Picard for instilling in me the idea that my attempts to use superhuman skills of diplomacy were no different to jumping off a building thinking I'd fly.

[@lunchbox7337ify]

Clark in Man of Steel was warned by his father that the world wouldn't be ready for someone like him. BVS proved Papa Kent was correct. And at the end of BVS and leading into Justice League the world realized he was someone trying to do good in the world and that they needed him. Superman was depressed because the world was misunderstanding him, and it took his death to realize how wrong the doubters were. Henry Cavill's version of the character never got to complete his arcs whereas these other iterations pretty much started out instantly as the world's greatest hero or didn't spend too much time building to get there.

[@KingofTheGojiras]

Thank you so much I thought I was the only one in this comment section who had this take 😂 and actually liked Synders Superman.

[@RCobra17isMyName]

Saw a video that explored Snyder’s filmography, and just took a deep dive into his past. The conclusion they reached was that Snyder loves the old movie Excalibur, and likes it so much that he tries to emulate it in his own movies. All to say that Snyder isn’t really trying to leave themes and messages in his work. Like, that he’s not an artuer or some high level alt-righter. He’s just a dude that likes cool movies, and likes to make cool movies.

[@xMawkKnightx]

I'm 16 minutes in and vaush is yet to talk about superman and/or zack snyder 😂😂😂

[@Scooter_Alice]

People forget that superman is just a goofy guy who just so happens to have the powers of a god. And his only desire is to use those powers to help people. People who don't understand this really shouldn't be allowed to write stories with him in it.

[@zotaninoron3548]

The problem with Rick Sanchez is he can never grow from his flaws, not actually. He's permanently stuck being his own biggest obstacle because he's structured to be too powerful a character for the multiverse of the 'world' to meaningfully challenge. His flaws are constantly used in a way to overwhelm and drag down his character's otherwise hypercompetence. While in other characters depicted their flaws are part of their strength. Their capacity to work through and around their flaws shows its own type of strength for the character while they excel in a superhuman way at particular skill sets.

[@jshwck4210]

"Superman smashes the Klan" Really cool comic.

[@percythecat2050]

Been wrecking my brain to think of a few female badasses that don't really have a huge character flaws that limit them... Hajime Ichinose from Gatchaman Crowds Charlize Theron in Atomic Blonde The Major from Ghost in the Shell - Stand alone Complex maybe Samus Aran in Metroid Dread specifically

[@chillypepperjr]

Wow you can super tell the mangaka of dr. Stone either was a doujin artist or based his style on one he liked lmao

[@bluespaceman7937]

I don't blame him.

[@brimming]

15:37 What did he say that got edited out?

[@danielsantos-wh2op]

Super is my favorite character, and people miss the point a lot with him. I think injustice rotted peoples brains too much. I loved injustice initially because of the absurd nature of the proposition, seeing Clark being a dictator is goofy, but scary, and his motivation being family but meanwhile he is banging Wonder Woman is genial to show the incoherence of this version. But for some reason people loved it for the wrong reasons and that is the character now more or less

[@ghostgabe81]

This is why Superman Smashes the Klan is my favorite version of Superman (or at least up there). He does have flaws, but they're not only tied into the themes of the story and the arcs of the other characters extremely well, but they never take away from him being the strongest person in the series or always knowing to do what's right. Highly recommend that comic to anyone

[@RevolutionaryLoser]

I bought that comic for one of my nephews. I don't know why anyone thinks Superman being sad that the USA is super fucking racist is a bad development. It's the one thing that makes me empathize with him.

[@zaczane]

Just want to point this out. Every single Live Action Superman shown has a straight on camera angle. Every single Comic Superman Shown has a looking Up at or looking down at camera Angle. Not sure if that has anything to do with that, but it could.

[@haraldlindohf4032]

For some characters the flaws act to make the positive aspects seem less meaningful. Rick's larger than life Intellect seems meaningless considering all his flaws. For Dr. Stone his intellect still allows him to be cool and stuff.

[@ImGiovanna]

I don't rly get this. Aren't there a ton of people who love the shit out of Rick and see him as like a power fantasy? I know there at least used to be. Also I've only seen the first season of the anime but i feel like Sengoku is the literal definition of a Mary Sue. He's already good at and is right about pretty much everything. He never has to overcome anything and any obstacles that come his way are resolved super quickly and effortlessly

[@trianglemoebius]

@@ImGiovanna Yes, there really are. Or at least were, since R&M has waned in popularity. You know the "To be fair you have to have a really high IQ..." copypasta? That was a REAL thing. Not the pasta itself, which was written in mockery, but it was mocking a very real group of people who thought of Rick as their "literally me".

[@ImGiovanna]

I even see edits of Rick being cynical and an asshole because whoever made it thought Rick sounded really cool and correct. His character is still very appealing

[@VendettaProduction01]

With dr stone, he does have flaws and the character doesn’t get the right answer right away. The main character is physically weak and can’t just make whatever. The first episode steps up how he needs other people to help him out. They get craftsman (who have been crafting their entire lives) from the village. The entire show is showing that yes even though the main character has the idea it takes everyone to actually make it happen. Lastly making gun powder isn’t hard you can do with stuff you find at a grocery store, the guess work is getting the proportions right without losing fingers.

[@shawnhenderson2091]

The idea of taking Superman into a darker theme isn't the problem with Snyder's movies, its the execution, it didn't live up to its hype. It tried to follow up Nolan's Batman series and fell short. I was stoked for the dark style Superman idea, the trailer had me excited as hell, but it didn't live up to its potential.

[@Castigar48]

Man Henry Cavel crushed it as superman. F*cking beast

[@apophis7712]

He would've killed it if he wasn't given such shit scripts

[@mememachine-386]

Not trying to excuse Man of Steel for being an absolute turd, but I'm gonna blame The Dark Knight for making studio execs think that making a "realistic" Superman movie would be a good idea.

[@daraghokane4236]

Realism means gray filter

[@mememachine-386]

@@daraghokane4236 it does mean that in Ingerland

[@SA-mo3hq]

Picard's greatest flaw is being the galaxy's most British Frenchman

[@jshwck4210]

"Why is he on Trial and why is it dark?" Because Snyder is a Rand objectivism stooge and this is his anti government bias in the scene. Somebody who champions egoism can't understand Superman.

[@nerdyworld938]

17:43 for anyone who doesn’t want to waste time 😊

[@dragonicdoom3772]

Not defending Dr Stone here, but the artist for the manga is a very reputable h3ntai artist so it's not too surprising that all the women are... let's say certain aspects of their designs were prioritised over others.

[@robinnadjiZ]

I feel like Zack Snyder is consistently among the most misunderstood directors; especially when it comes to his DCEU films (I know that’s gonna trigger people but i REALLY feel if you if really examine his work deeply and thoughtfully {without your mind already made up} you’ll come away with a lot more interest in what he does. I much prefer Zack Snyder’s approach to superheroes infinitely more than any of his Marvel Contemporaries. Which is why I’ve rewatched man of steel or BVS wayyyy more than 90 % of the marvel movies. Always up for the debate.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

Snyder is quite infamostly stupid in his approach and tries approximate deeper stories the same 90s comics tried to be next Watchmen aka they pushed darker content and more death, but didn't said anything deeper than predecessors. Also, Snyder tries to make every movie Excalibur and I can't unsee it.

[@ocularpatdown]

Snyder was the completely wrong choice to make this movie. I don’t want Edgelord Superman. Leave that shit to fan-fiction. His style is ponderous and pretentious.

[@robinnadjiZ]

@@ocularpatdown I don’t believe he made Superman an edge lord at all. I find Snyder’s Superman to be deeply hopeful In one of the most authentic ways. In fact here’s another Hot take for you i’ve watched Snyders Superman movies more often than I’ve watched 95% of any movie from the MCU. They have much more depth and weight than Thor ragnarok or Guardians of the galaxy 2 ever could.

[@orlandoacosta2631]

Lol, so cherrypicking some comic images and comparing him to previous iterations means he isnt superman. Theres plenty of darker takes of Superman in the comics (Earth 1 anyone?). And theres plenty of comic images where he isnt just a boy scout. I dont see people bitching when marvel takes liberties with their characters. If you ask me, they butchered Adam Warlock worse than Snyder "butchered" Superman

[@devildelirious8662]

Picard is the ultimate chad and *you* should watch tng

[@C.G.Jr.]

Loved this entire discussion. I miss genuine Chad characters so god damn much. Not some wannabe Chad that is too deep into their own self hatred to be likeable, despite being a literal god. OR you have a Chad that must then mock the sincerity of their Chadliness, like an MCU Himbo that is mostly there to slapstick their way through every single MCU movie until the big fight happens and NOW they're serious(ish). It's so lame tbh. Many people fail to understand that heart, comedy, and a cool thrilling tone can ALL EXIST TOGETHER in a piece of media. These things don't have to be exclusive...

[@shandorno6305]

Honestly, I think one of the main reasons they don't do them any more is because it takes more skill and effort to make them without it being too much. Getting the balance right is harder. Therefore, they either don't try, and write boors, or just go back to mocking everything. Presumably thinking "You can't make fun of our character if we already have." It's similar to all the whedonesque "self-aware" dialogue you see.

[@zotaninoron3548]

Vaush's critique here is the same I have for Star Trek as a franchise. TOS and TNG were deliberately optimistic and hopeful about the future. And while DS9 did a well executed adaption to that formula with a more gritty universe that idealism still persisted. But modern trek seems to try so fucking hard to follow the dystopia scifi trend its frustrating. I preferred the Orville to Discovery. So much of scifi feeds off of anxieties about the future, there is space for Star Trek to be what Gene wanted. An aspirational vision of what we could be.

[@Arian-11]

The Snyder version of superman leaned to heavily into the man of steel part of superman. They forgot that, yes, superman is a man of steel. But that he's a man of steel with a big HEART. Superman in a fun-loving hopeful himbo and not grim, dark, brooding bane of your existence in black. That's just batman.

[@sothisisbasicallyhow4696]

The Star Trek stuff reminded me of James Holden from the expanse. Utterly amazing character.

[@LimeyLassen]

The term "Mary Sue" just means a character isn't as cool as the author hyped them up to be.