Part 1: Kip McKean & the International Church of Christ | Cultish

[@thomasrichardson4520]

Nailed it. What's astonishing to me is how effective the First Principles series remains after all these decades. Calling it "a masterclass in conversion and deception" is spot on. Some important context missing from your coverage in this episode: the study series is typically only deployed after the prospective convert has established close friendship with at least one member present for the "studies;" the study sessions are positioned as urgent and continued connection with the friend-member is conditioned on continuing through the studies, thus monopolizing the prospective convert's time and further isolating them from non-cult social connections; emotional connections with and support from other members present for the studies are built through the study sessions and often paired with group prayer times and social functions; as the series progresses the emotional connections between the members and the prospective convert, intended at this point to be the only positive emotional connections the prospective convert has, are leveraged to coerce assent to the teachings in the studies. The net result is that as the studies progress, and certainly by their conclusion, the prospective convert is wholly dependent on the members for social validation and on dutifully and enthusiastically repeating the teachings and reproducing the process with new prospective converts in order to maintain this validation. Once this chain of events kicks off in a new town or on a new campus, the dynamics at play are so powerful that little tending from leadership is needed apart from periodic spot-checks, positioned as the leaders wanting the blessing of taking even a small part in the miracle being worked in the potential convert's life, to ensure that there's no deviation from the study series. Source: me, a surviving ex-member, long since de-converted, active today in survivors' groups.

[@Bhrollo]

Wow that was amazing

[@TrueDisciple115]

Very excited to see this episode!

[@LoriWood-e8y]

I was in the Columbia Missouri ICOC - in “leadership “. They never shared that Kip stepped down in 2001?! I left when Kriete letter came out. I had been heavily questioning things myself and then i brought the Kriete letter to our “leader “ and he refused to look at it. I left! I had started in KC ICOC - was in the church for total of 14 years. Anyhow- 20 years later and I’m still healing! Thanks for your podcast - it does help me to see the whole picture.

[@MeisterPurple]

Thanks for bringing this cult to light and their controversial practices. I lost my best friend to this cult and was subsequently cut off because I did not want to follow. They tried to recruit me while I was a student on campus but did not succeed. They intentionally look for people that are easy to manipulate and will put people in charge that have a more militant personality (that was my experience anyways). They're very kind at first and will be very inviting towards others. I remember going to one of their services that was actually quite pleasant and encouraging. There were lots of testimonies, the food was good, and the suite they had rented seemed professional and "legit". However, the more I saw, the more uneasy I became as to how committed and almost "blind" their followers were. They had the "truth" and you were either in or out. I promptly distanced myself away and they got the hint.

[@Nirenosnilmot]

I'm so glad you dodged that bullet. I was raised in the ICOC and left at age 14. Even at that age, I smelled bullshit.

[@adriumproductions]

I made the mistake of joining this cult because I was young, lost and gullible. It took me like 5 months to get out of that. I'm still trying to digest and forget what they thought me.

[@Sotol811]

I was lucky. Got out in the same amount of time. Still, they stalked me for months later, using Douglas Jacoby's book Shining like Stars, they are evil.

[@drake_leo2152]

The lawsuits were never dropped

[@Pavlusek74]

So refreshing to see this. Also, nothing but happiness and positive Christian relationships in the 6+ years (prompted by the Holy Spirit) I decided to "SAVE" my family by leaving their Melbourne Branch. Unrepentant and ridiculously ignorant and arrogant leadership and elders run the show here. Leadership publicly boast about love-bombing regularly. If you lovingly (as a brother in Christ) bring God's word with genuine concern to an elder or ministry leader, you'll get a "I'm sorry you feel that way" response and then hear them joking about their arrogance in a Sunday service! At first I was sad and depressed, but now I realise it's SCARY and really evil! PLEASE pray for true biblical discernment and The Holy Spirit's guidance to lead you to peace....TRUE PEACE. If you want a superficial social club, it's easy to join! They won't baptise you if you have a mental illness, or work on Sundays, but they'll go after the suitors even if they take calls during service They are not there to love, unless you have money.

[@markuscrause8762]

Thanks for this episode, so many churches actually function like the ICOC

[@GinaPape-v7k]

Kip had no choice but to resign because of a scandal that involved his college aged married secretary. This is the info that I was given.

[@xray342radio]

That's what's coming out in public. The ICC's public letter (currently on some private Facebook groups) from November 22, 2024 mentions "his unrepentant sins of arrogance, deceit, and dissension" along with "[Kip] claims to have repented from sins of a sexual and sensual nature, yet his actions continue to show that his heart and character are still far from God."

[@ReformedStudent1689]

I look forward to listening to this! It's nice that you guys are back on a role! Keep up the good work, and God bless!

[@rogertayloRRR]

I spent 11 years there . No clue where to from here other than I need a break

[@cosmic_order]

Matthew 11:28-30

[@JesusSavedSolomon]

By grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone acts16:31 John 3:16 John 3:18 John 6:47 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

[@whenascammercalls247]

​@@cosmic_orderAmen. This is who Jesus is, nothing repent or die version they preach

[@Bearthowlemew]

My family was there too... we now attend a WELS Lutheran church and have never had so much solid teaching, with love and fear of God. Highly recommend this denomination. There is a church locator on their website.

[@jonathanrocha2275]

If you’re in Boston, let me know and I’ll recommend some churches

[@JesusSavedSolomon]

Please don’t forget the rcw don’t be fooled I joined icc now rcw 2 months ago and left as soon as I realized I was in a false doctrine

[@frankiemonato583]

Are they non trinitarians?

[@xray342radio]

@@frankiemonato583Outwardly they are Trinitarians - they baptize using the Trinitarian formula. However, they frequently fall into Subordinationism (you hear this in their preaching as “God and Jesus”) and also frequently describe the Holy Spirit as an “it” or an impersonal force and not a Person. These weren’t developments by the ICOC/ICC/RCW. They inherited both issues from the hardline mainline Churches of Christ. Plus Subordinationism can be directly traced back to Barton Stone.

[@TrueDisciple115]

They are trinitarians. They have the same fundamental doctrines as the ICC and come from the ICC

[@peggieadamson9330]

What pulls people into this movement! So sad!!!

[@Bhrollo]

@@peggieadamson9330usually don’t know any better or don’t have biblical knowledge or want to be part of a “biblical church”

[@whenascammercalls247]

50:35 Such a big lie that for them to say "I'm sure there are other true Christians out there but I haven't met one yet" Assuming they are 'true disciples ' (spoiler alert ⚠️ They're NOT) their former church are acting like 'true disciples ' as are the RCW by THEIR standards!! This comment is a clear disception which is ultimately sin!

[@kristenspencer9751]

Wondering if you have insight/referrals/resources about the "Christian Church" and if it differs at all from Church of Christ theologically (besides just the "music" issue). I had been attending a Christian Church having never heard of it before. I thought it was just a non-denominational church...close to Baptist. I attended 10 years. Nicest, friendliest church I've ever been a part of, and went all out to help each other. But gradually, after 4-5 years, I began to notice subtle things. One day during adult Bible study, the leader wondered if Jesus even knew that he would be crucified! After the pastor retired due to health issues, the younger men were elected elders and started doing the teaching and preaching. That's when huge differences appeared. Scoffing that Jesus spoke about himself as a fulfillment of prophecy. One young elder stating twice that he doesn't believe in a "sin nature". Stating that ONLY the 'Christian Church' (the one 'true' church) would go to be with the Lord upon His return. They hired a church consultant from their denomination who described the Trinity as: "too one to be many, and too many to be one." (huh????). I tend to align with a Calvinist perspective and then later learned that Stone & Campbell rejected everything I believe in! (read the Westminster confession to see what they rejected). Last Spring, I finally left the church and am looking for another church home. I sure would like to hear back from someone and their experience with the Christian Church.

[@christrescuedme2182]

Hi, from what I understand the "Christian church" of the restoration movement is identical in their soteriology with the mainline "Church of Christ" that I had been a former life-long member of, until the Lord saved me. Hope my books may be of help to you. Blessings!

[@xray342radio]

I live in Cincinnati, an Independent Christian Church-heavy part of the country. So yes, the Christian Churches teach that a lost person is regenerated at the point of baptism, however they're generally less insistent on holding fast to it like those in the Churches of Christ. So if we imagine a continuum where one one side you have the hardline "you must know you're being baptized for the forgiveness of sins to be truly saved" on one side and "we so identify with general Evangelicalism that you'll have to read the fine print with one of our Elders - who is the grandfather of twelve - that we teach a form of baptismal regeneration" on the other, the majority of Churches of the Christ are on the former end while the majority of the Christian Churches are on the other. There are small numbers of Churches of Christ that are "liberal" and would fall into the more evangelical category (Max Lucado's church was like this until they left the Restoration Movement entirely) while there are also a small number of Christian Churches who would fall into the more legalistic category (looking at you, Christian Restoration Association). I believe the key is that at some point, the amount of inconsistencies with an Evangelical-leaning Christian Church or Church of Christ will become an impediment to that congregation and an individual Christian's spiritual growth. That's what happened to me and my family. And in your example, it appears that teaching on things like the Trinity went from something more solid and orthodox to something more troubling and heretical. You don't know what you're going to get because there are no creeds or confessions. Plus there are a very, very small number of formally trained leaders who come out of a Restoration Movement college, university, or seminary with at best a somewhat consistent systematic theology, at least on big things like the Trinity and stepping into inconsistencies like baptism.

[@Liberty4AllGVT]

How much does it cost to record and upload a video?

[@artvandelay2441]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

[@cullenclark]

When are y’all going to do an episode on Joel Webbon, Stephen Wolfe, Brian Suave, and the cult they are forming?

[@Bearthowlemew]

Yuuuuuup!!

[@Michael_Chandler_Keaton]

Amen!

[@tamalam]

Mm? What's happening with them?

[@jillianmathews3749]

What are they forming?

[@cullenclark]

@@jillianmathews3749 Christian Nationalist/Sacralist/Neo-Nazi political movement under the guise of reformed theology

[@jakecollins8918]

Is BOLD campus ministries ICC?

[@drake_leo2152]

Yes

[@xray342radio]

Yes, and they have many other front groups with ridiculously silly acronyms that claim to be a denominational Bible study. The two major front groups on the ICOC side are Alpha Omega and Disciples on Campus.

[@Pavlusek74]

56:20 "Very much against the gifts, the spiritual gifts" Exactly! I'm sure there is a scripture about "Where there is no prophecy......."

[@elkellenhabla]

The Reformers believed baptism saves, just not quite the sort of baptismal regeneration ICC teaches.

[@joshuawoodin]

That show duck dynasty, wasn't some of them in the church of christ ? They believe you must be baptized, and he said they can say the apostles creed, believe the trinity, & Jesus resurrection, & his future 2nd coming ? In otherwords they can blend in well ?

[@christrescuedme2182]

Yes, the duck dynasty gurus are CoC all the way, and very subtle in how they spread it abroad.

[@anne.ominous]

@@christrescuedme2182church of Christ and ICOC are not the same denomination

[@mattvaught4689]

Church of Christ are independent of each other and ICOC was not. They had an organization just as many other type of churches do. This was no where in the scriptures. Each church was independent, didn’t mean that evangelists, Apostles or other ministers didn’t help or go to other churches. But they didn’t have an organization running them to tell them what to believe or what they needed to do.

[@elkellenhabla]

@@mattvaught4689ICOC had the more manipulative growth tactics. I don’t believe they are as common in the mainline Church of Christ.

[@Kenny_Doyle]

Episode 2 Now Plssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[@Sotol811]

What about Douglas Jacoby and Douglas Arthur.....

[@denonamp]

Dont forget LICC which is in London england

[@xray342radio]

Michael Williamson (their Lead Evangelist) 😱

[@heatherreyessmith6997]

LICC was so prevalent on UCL campus working very hard against us at the UCL Christian Union. They came to our events and poached members, organised events at the same time as ours, heckled during our events about salvation through baptism. Almost lost a friend of mine to their group when they love bombed him after chatting at one of the CU events. They would meet in our canteen even though these ‘students’ were full on families with babies and 30 something leaders. It’s the same on most London uni campuses. I graduated 3 years ago and they still message me via IG for campus Bible studies… We worked diligently to get them banned on campus for psychological abuse, but they’re still there to this day from what I can tell.

[@BT-zh9bq]

@@heatherreyessmith6997hey. i attend UCL. I would really like to help u with getting them banned of campus. i almost joined the LICC. then i realised what it really was

[@dimosstasinopoulos6874]

48:25 ‭‭ «The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as being Lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.» ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@Sotol811]

Douglas Jacoby engineered a lot of this stuff, his book Shining Like Stars provides instructions to cult members.

[@koph5664]

If they’re “Christian” in a generic sense because they hold to the traditionally historic doctrines such as what’s contained in the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, etc, then they are. However, they’re not Christians (the Saved/Elect) if they believe in Baptismal Regeneration. They may be Christians, but only in a generic sense.

[@amandamsnyder87]

Is Christ Ambassitors part of this group?

[@CharismaticCheetah]

Hey, this isn't about Waco or David Koresh!

[@bryanhodge3978]

No info on icoc available but for you? Really?

[@heystevematthews]

There’s some stuff out there but not enough, and not much from the perspective on these episodes, especially from what will be covered in Part 2.

[@christrescuedme2182]

For some reason Cultish has been very quiet about the resources that are out there....like my books concerning the CoC (the root of ICC) and other resources I list in my books.

[@thomasrichardson4520]

"The Reclamation Podcast" has loads of info available.

[@noahamoore]

These things are not taught in the ICOC for many years now. Some of these things never taught - especially using "restoration" like the Mormon's - this is completely unrelated, and nobody in the ICOC and likely ICC would ever affirm this. Kip was removed over 20 years ago from the ICOC, and was just removed from the ICC.

[@xray342radio]

No ICOC, former ICOC, or ICOC-adjacent church has rejected and repudiated First Principles as both and false gospel and thought reform system. The ICOC may not be as outwardly dangerous as the ICC/RCW, but it’s still a dangerous unreformable cult.

[@heystevematthews]

Agreed. And these things were pointed out in the episode.

[@elkellenhabla]

What do you mean? ICOC churches certainly acknowledged coming out of the Restoration Movement.

[@noahamoore]

Kip is over the ICC, not the ICOC.

[@JasonRateliff]

I love what you guys are doing but you have some facts wrong in this episode the ICC and icoc are extremist the representation of the restoration movement isn't exactly correct just like every denomination there are extremist but the majority of those in Christian and coc churches don't believe the way described there are some major things missed for one "the restoration movement" know it as the stone Campbell movement why wasn't Barton stone mentioned? Again the extremist are not the group. Just like the ifb doesn't represent all baptist. Just some food for thought. Some of us are even reformed and believe almost the same as y'all I look to Dr white as an inspiration. Y'all don't separate from Doug Wilson because of different baptism beliefs

[@JasonRateliff]

Ok so he mentioned stone but I don't believe what he said was correct I'd like to see the source where he denied trinity I don't think he said any such thing

[@xray342radio]

@@JasonRateliffStone definitely fell into Subordinationism. Most of the rest of the Stone-Campbell Movement corrected and hold to more solid Trinitarian theology. However, Subordinationism still shows it its face in parts of the mainline Churches of Christ and all of the ICOC, ICC, and RCW. P.S. Since Stone-Campbell is non-creedal, it’s a roll of the dice to see if a particular congregation holds to a solid, historical view of the Trinity - among other things.

[@heystevematthews]

A quick Google search will confirm that Stone denied the Trinity. It could not be more clear. Here’s one example - “ My own views of the Son of God, are, that he did not begin to exist 1820 years ago; nor did he exist from eternity; but was the first begotten of the Father before time or creation began. . . . He is not equal in essence, being or eternity; else he could never be subject to the Father - and such an equality would destroy the unity of God. . . . For our authority, we have already produced the scriptures. Let our brethren prove that the Son was eternal and independent; then we will acknowledge that he was eternally divine.”

[@heystevematthews]

While I did my graduate degree I stayed on a Christian Church campus so I am quite familiar with Barton W. Stone and Restorationist history. A quick Google search will confirm Stone’s false teachings.

[@cristian_5305]

Believing that baptism saves does not make a church a cult. This is so stupid.

[@christrescuedme2182]

Only Jesus saves.

[@cristian_5305]

@@christrescuedme2182 I agree.

[@mattvaught4689]

John 1:12-13 (ESV): 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Says to those who believe He gave them the right to become children of God. Only one way to become a child and that’s in Gal 3:25-29. It’s through baptism. Just as Jesus said to Nicodemus, you must be born again of water and Spirit. The word “and” is a conjunction word, it’s both of those things. Water and Spirit, just as Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:38.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@mattvaught4689 The CoC inserts the word baptism into many passages that mention water. It automatically assumes that whenever the word “water” shows up in the Bible it automatically means baptism. However, all throughout Scripture water often refers to the Holy Spirit. In John 3:5, many Greek translators prefer “water EVEN the Spirit.” And, in John 7:38-39, Jesus even said, “He who believes in Me…out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive.” Besides, Jesus reprimanded Nicodemus for not being familiar with water being symbolic of the purifying agency of God’s Spirit in the Old Testament (e.g. Ex. 30:18, Deut. 21:6, Ezek. 36:25). The New Testament parallel is that the Holy Spirit is the regenerating and purifying agent, and the “water of the Word” is the instrument that He uses to guide His people to faith in Jesus Christ, and whereby all of God’s graces are called into exercise (Eph. 5:26, Heb. 4:12, 1 Pet. 1:23).

[@elkellenhabla]

Yeah Reformed folks may be interested to know that the Reformers believed baptism saves (although not baptismal regeneration like the ICC/ICOC).

[@jasminjennings4978]

More correct teacher You go in a believer you come out a baptized believer. You become a Christian then get baptized for the gift of the Holy Spirit and forgiveness of sins.

[@flavoredwaters]

Just remember the ICoC and the CoC are NOT the same lmao

[@elkellenhabla]

This distinction is made in the video several times.

[@elkellenhabla]

CoC is still problematic as it denies original sin.

[@harrisonescobar-yr4cl]

Any thoughts on what Travis is doing? kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJW3oICtec6aiJosi=zt8EAEcG1WB7sC4P he seems to be making some headway against your arguments. I’m on your side just wondering if you’re aware?

[@MartinIsUncensored]

Jeff.. that URFRIENDLYHOOD guy that called you a false prophet.. he believes FREE GRACE.. plz make a video on the error of it

[@cristian_5305]

Baptism saves, I don’t make the rules.

[@Eyesofmars2040]

I don’t think the lawsuits are dropped. That’s what they’re telling people. You have some things wrong.

[@heystevematthews]

This was directly from the mouth of Raul Moreno, their World Missions Evangelist.

[@Eyesofmars2040]

they’re not telling the truth. This is something they’re saying to gaslight the members.

[@drake_leo2152]

The lawsuits aren’t dropped, they just got another one

[@noahamoore]

Poorly done overall. Some truths mixed in with broad generalizations applied poorly, and making himself divisive. Some things about Kip true - he’s been very destructive and removed from leadership twice. However, these generalizations about the ICOC today are baseless and obviously lack insight into the church’s recovery after Kip.

[@xray342radio]

Tell that to the thousands of people we’ve helped out after they left the ICOC the last two decades. Not to mention the lawsuits…

[@heystevematthews]

The recovery after Kip is clearly stated in this episode. This was also stated in the previous episode to this one where the “course correction” of the ICOC is mentioned.

[@turnthepage867]

ICOC and Kip ruined so many young lives...no course correction is possible.

[@drake_leo2152]

Both groups are trash

[@bkp7769]

Church's Recovery?

[@bryanhodge3978]

You guys reference Walrt Martin and James Wite far more than member of the church of Christ reference Campbell, Stone, or Scott. Who is the cult?

[@Michael_Chandler_Keaton]

Don't see the category difference, huh? Martin & White are referenced because they've done good work in the field of covering the cults. CoC mention these men as Biblical thought leaders; men who possessed "pure doctrine," and use their teaching as basis for required dogma.

[@Michael_Chandler_Keaton]

Mentioning men is fine, and Biblical. Iron sharpens iron and some are given to be teachers. The problem is when someone comes along to challenge traditional orthodoxy and purports to have "the truth," while everybody else has fallen away or been corrupted.

[@bryanhodge3978]

You, sir, are wrong. No one thinks these men were some how free from error. We speak about what you do not know. There is nothing wrong with citing a source. But seriously. Walter Martin is reference every episode as if his word is gospel. Sounds cultish. "I determined not to know anything among you except Walter Martin and James White."

[@bryanhodge3978]

I would be much more impressed with actual Bible study in context. Looking at both sides. Not nearly enough of this. Just the claim that if you do t agree with us you are a cult.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@bryanhodge3978 Then you may be interested in my book "Christ Rescued Me from the "Church of Christ"...

[@dragonflyrobots]

this is laughable out of date maybe 20 years old information

[@heystevematthews]

Actually the episode accurately traces the history of McKean’s movements for 45 years, and does in part cover the events that occurred 20 years ago with the ICOC and then covers the history of the ICC up to the current events so you must have not listened too much to what was covered.

[@turnthepage867]

This is an excellent episode.