Best Tent Fabrics? w/ Dan Durston

[@rungavagairun]

This show is super Canadian.

[@waltbates8257]

What a great video! Thanks Justin for setting this utube up with Dan Durston and helping us better understand the thinking behind the design of Dans great products. I own Durston tents and backpacks because of Dans commitment to quality and functional design at a reasonable cost (as well as his personal interaction with others in social media). Great products, great person! Great utube Justin!

[@sherrylaponsee7782]

🇨🇦 loves Justin and Dan Durston!!!

[@gearprioritypodcast]

New episodes will be released on KZbin Sunday morning and then to Spotify, iTunes, and other podcast platforms on Monday mornings. I hope you enjoy them! Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/4Rgn5EwoMGCJO43DhByZIq Apple: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/gear-priority-with-justin-outdoors/id1680538219 Amazon: music.amazon.com/podcasts/d469a174-9d73-4cb7-aa52-2aa93107d99c/gear-priority-with-justin-outdoors Pocket Casts: pca.st/9tu2eesx

[@jeremyroussel160]

As someone who does multiples polar expeditions every year. Their is definitely place to progress. A 5 to 7 lbs tent is considered lightweight.

[@WanderingSwitchback]

Dan's the best! The Gearheads group is such a fun place, too! Learned a ton here, thanks, Justin!

[@dsmith9572]

Dacron is low stretch. A little shock cord should compensate for wet stretched nylon. RTV seem sealing for sil coatings?

[@ManivanAdventures]

Awesome! Just bought an X-Mid 1 a couple hours ago. Looks like a great value and Dan seems like such a chill dude. Interesting hearing from him and very excited to test his tent out! 🤙🏼

[@KevinSmith-wr1sy]

Loved this Jason! These deep dives into fabrics are fantastic.

[@davef5916]

this was so sick, so much jargon flying around, really made it easy to understand and Dans enthusiasm is infectious!

[@HikeRx]

I recently purchased the Durston X-Mid 1 person tent (polyester version). I'm very happy with it.

[@TDOLLA]

lol my girlfriend is such a hater she just walked by and was like “are you still listening to those guys talk about tents!?” I’m like “no we haven’t got into full tents right now the groundwork of fibers has been laid and we are moving into coatings..” I love it! I love gear, I love fabrics and techy materials I love going deep on these topics and plus who is cooler than Dan Durston?

[@gearprioritypodcast]

you are my people, haha

[@MFRiley]

Right there with ya, man. The girlfriends will never understand, haha.

[@djw8504]

Lol!!! My ex boyfriend made fun of me for my interest in gear and hiking! Lol! Maybe that’s why he’s my ex!😂😂👏 I Love my XMid 1!❤️

[@SparkyOne549]

My boyfriend is the same. He asks “are you sure you don’t want to camp?” I reply, “I don’t want to camp, I want to backpack for a few days” his reply “F$&( that!”

[@tvluce]

This was great! It was very cool getting into the nitty gritty details of threads, fibers, fabrics and coatings. Thanks Dan & Justin!

[@matthewsnyder4091]

Wish I would've been here for this live. Gossamer Gears use of robic and silnylons is why they are my favorite cottage company. 10D sil/pu tents and tarps equate to very low weights at relatively low prices. A 17oz 1P tent ... A 7 oz catcut 10-9 x 7 tarp. Great Lasts longer than DCF according to many anecdotal accounts. 30D, 70D, other Deniers of robic nylon make for very lightweight, decently durable for most backpackers, and low cost. The new GG Fastpack looks amazing. One can always do some trimming for lower weight. DWR is definitely not the greatest for water shedding, but a cheap plastic pack cover that weighs nothing sheds the rain for me. Dan taught me about sil/pu patch ability over sil/sil

[@justinw1765]

It is easy to patch silicone coated fabrics. You just take a piece of likewise silicone only coated fabric, thin out some 100% silicone caulk with some naphtha, and apply the thinned silicone to the new fabric (while cleaning the old, holey fabric with some 90% isopropyl alcohol) and stick it on the old fabric and wait for the silicone to cure (24 hrs). Maybe not as easy as slapping on some tape, but still not that hard nor that much work.

[@DingDong-fq2mo]

Great start with the Podcast, Justin!

[@Em_Dee_Aitch]

This was fantastic!

[@born2bwildne744]

Super interview with a super person. Learned a bunch and am much smarter fro watching this video. Just ordered an X-Mid 2 ad Durston's Z-Flick tent poles .... (motorcycle camping)

[@Cary-cgc98]

Wow! Great info on tent fabrics. Learned a lot. Thx

[@michaelhurd8942]

Loved that deep dive. Thanks

[@shaunhall960]

I'm designing a viking tent and now I'm obsessed with it. So much fun just going through the process.

[@billpetersen298]

Viking tent?

[@stonedapeadventures]

sling fin does a bunch of uv stuff with the fabric, coatings, and such

[@dontall71]

Looking forward to seeing what he comes up with next!

[@TennesseeSlim]

Dan plz make a 2p double walled dyneema tent!

[@frstesiste7670]

Interesting video. Didn't know that polyester had been considered an inferior fabric to nylon. Fjällräven, a Swedish brand made all their top-of-the-line tents with polyester fabric in the mid- late seventies (and maybe later too). Don't know when they switched but use nylon now as far as I know, maybe except for one model. At the time most other manufacturers used nylon and some claimed that was stronger fabrics, but the polyester was clearly strong enough for some really harsh conditions (I've tried) and the sag free polyester fabric was a real bonus in a climate with lots of rain.

[@TennesseeSlim]

How does this not have more views?

[@danielflaherty7794]

Ever thought about using the Ultra fabrics (200/400) as a material for your tent?

[@fjellbams1]

I am soon hopefully gonna try out my solid 2p i bought early this winter:)

[@franknmiles]

Dan the man!

[@ddff5242]

Curious about thoughts on dutchware gear patent pending fully bonded sil poly fabric eliminating the need for any kind of seam tape or seam sealant. It also turns the seam from the weakest part of the fabric into the strongest part of the fabric. My understanding is because of the bonding process they can use thinner denier sil poly without compromising the integrity of the fabric by not putting any holes through stitching. This seems like a game changer for durability and waterproofness.

[@gearprioritypodcast]

Sounds promising! Dan kind of alluded to technologies like that. I have have to have Dutch on to discuss!

[@ddff5242]

@@gearprioritypodcast That would be awesome! I feel like It all depends on the durability of a 0.9 sil poly fabric but if it holds up and stands the test of time, their fully bonded sil poly .9 fabric is only like 3-5 oz heavier than dyneema tarps(depending on cut/size). At this point, its Starting to get close enough to dyneema in terms of weight (not to mention also sharing hydrophobic properties) but at half the cost. Also, one thing that wasnt mentioned (I dont think) was the compressibility of sil poly over dyneema. Sil poly is actually significantly more compressible/packable than dyneema. In backpacking this matters. Contrary to what people might think, dyneema, while being ridiculously light, is actually kind of bulky when packing up. Its a pretty interesting option i would think for a lot of consumers. I think the wild card though is durability of the super thin sil poly. Any ways, ill stop nerding out. By the way, great job. Awesome podcast for gear nerds. This fills a niche that isnt really filled in the podcast space.

[@matthewsnyder4091]

​@@ddff5242 Man there's even 7D 6.6 Silnylon now... The stretch factor with this fabric is way too high, with reports of the fabric wrinkling in the field. But a silpoly may stretch so little, even a theoretical 7D ripstop silpoly may be viable.

[@justinw1765]

@@matthewsnyder4091 Stretch is not just a feature of the base fiber/material, but also how it is woven and how many threads there are per a given area (and how they are oriented). Polyester btw, does actually have some innate stretch too, just less than nylon. Look up "elongation at break" of various different fibers. For example, polyester has 50% elongation at break while cotton has between 4 to 8%. Meaning, when you try to pull apart a fiber (and the weight/force it can resist is called its tensile strength), polyester will stretch quite a bit before fracturing apart i.e. breaking. But a cotton fiber will stretch very little before breaking apart (and at much lower force than polyester). Getting the kind of forces required to stretch out polyester fabric while backpacking though, will generally be hard to do, unless you are talking some very, very, very strong winds. But at that point, chances are that your tent stakes would be pulling up out of the ground and the like anyways. Nylon not only has more elastic stretch and elongation at break than polyester, but as Dan mentioned, it absorbs an appreciable amount of moisture into the material itself and when it does that, it expands and stretches, which leads to stretch sag, which is different than bias (diagonal) stretch and elongation at break stretch. There are so many different factors to consider that it can be a little mind boggling and generalities aren't very helpful (or accurate) most of the time. There is a new high tenacity polyester fiber and fabric on the market called Pasmo btw. Just not yet with waterproof coatings yet. I contacted the company and urged them to consider coating them with pure silicone and they said that they had already talked about it some recently, so my message was coincidental/synchronistic. Hopefully they come out with a silicone coated version in the near future. It will be the rival to nylon's 6.6 in terms of tensile strength. Pasmo fibers have between 1.5 and 1.6 times higher tensile strength than regular polyester.

[@tullochgorum6323]

Chatting with a consultant designer with over 200 big-brand lightweight shelters to his name, he says that the finishing is critical and can vary more from batch to batch than the difference between, say nylon 6.6 and polyester. Having said that, for backpacking tents he's a big proponent of silpoly because of the stretch and sag performance. He has access to the repair departments of many of the big brands and says that the minor differences in strength are a non-issue provided the stress points are properly designed. Neither will survive rubbing against a rock or branch. Plus silpoly has better UV resistance so after a few weeks in the field it's very likely a toss-up.

[@durstongear]

Was that Mike Cecot-Scherer? Legend. I agree that there are a lot of variables that go into a fabric and some of them can dwarf nylon vs poly.

[@DouglasHPlumb]

What is wrong with P U coatings? Can this not be fixed with spray on silicone?

[@CanadianSkylights]

nice video Dan. Please make a sil poly version of the pro tent! I want the regular xmid 1 without the extra 4-6 ounces of bug netting to make it single wall. Makes it easier to whipe down condensation and shaves some weight, while making it more liveable inside.

[@CastawayHikes]

Agree! I would jump on a single wall silpoly version of the 1P

[@crappymeal]

Excellent information

[@GeorgeThomas-dt2up]

What fabric makes for the best tent flooring?

[@michelstronguin6974]

The tent fabric I always wanted is like the one used in the Siesta 2 tent. That one blocks out the sun, so that you can legit have a zero day on trail without the sun baking you in the tent plus you have real cool temps and a lot more darkness, so it’s more like a cave. You can legit take a mid day siesta, enjoy the views from within the tent without overheating from the sun, that’s very relaxing. The Siesta 2 weighed 2 kilograms, but if designed as a trekking pole tent, it could be half that.

[@michelstronguin6974]

@@mrsrhardyOh wow, that presents an opportunity here. That company owners can be contacted to buy the rights to use this fabric technology, and move forward to make a trekking pole tent out of it.

[@stevewright2241]

Nice deep talk.

[@TRIChuckles]

Please someone tell me , can you spray silicone spray on these tents without damaging them???!!!

[@djw8504]

Good question! Also permethrin? Can tht be sprayed on XMid 1?

[@THEUPSTAIRS100]

And this right here is why Durston Gear is a cult. Well done both of you.

[@justinw1765]

Nice talk. Some related thoughts and points: Super small diameter UHMWPE fibers (Dyneema, Spectra, Ultra, etc) are very hard and expensive to make (currently). I think 50D is the smallest that I've seen in commercially available threads and fabrics. Even if you could make them 10D or the like, how are you going to waterproof it, as nothing sticks to this super low energy surface? You "MIGHT" be able to calender a thin UHMWPE film to the fibers, but you have to be very careful with heating UHMWPE fibers because they have a low melting temp and as soon as they get near that melting temp, the crystalline molecular chains that give these fibers so much strength, start to change back into amorphous structures. So the pressure and heat would have to be very carefully controlled and dialed in. I'm not even sure if this would be possible or not. You can plasma treat the outside surface of the fibers/fabric, but that is much easier for industry than individuals to do (and I think that DSM has or had a protected patent on it). There is a Japanese corporation called Teijin which is making high tenacity polyester fibers and fabrics now. Their polyester fibers are between 1.5 and 1.6 times stronger than regular grade polyester. They also mention that their polyester formulation already has higher UV resistance than regular polyester btw. You can even buy their polyester fabrics on their US distributor store, called ThinkEcoFabrics, under the labels PASMO (range from downproof/not very breathable, to very breathable) and PASMO Technoforce (very unbreathable)--they range from 12.50 to 15 dollars a yard (ranges from 50 to 60" or so wide). Unfortunately, none of these are coated with waterproof coatings. I actually contacted them not too long ago and asked (and suggested) if they ever thought about applying a pure silicone coating for waterproof fabrics? Interestingly, they said that they had recently talked about possibly doing just that. I really hope they move forward with that. Dye color really affects UV resistance of a fabric, besides the material and coatings. The darker the color and closer to deep black, the longer it will last in relation high UV exposure. For example, one time when going hot air ballooning, I asked the captain if he noticed a difference in how the nylon lasted in relation to colors. He said definitely, and that they have noticed that black and dark navy blue colored nylon balloons lasted the longest. I already had an inkling of this before I asked, and which is why I asked him that question (to see if there was any outside correlation/confirmation besides the sources I had already seen). I've looked a little into the 3M silicone tapes, and from what I've seen so far, they are definitely pricey. Maybe less so if one has business connections and has the ability to buy in bulk. It is not hard to mix a little silicone caulk with some naphtha (works better than mineral spirits) to thin it out and then apply with foam brush. I'm too impatient to sit around and wait for pure silicone coated Pasmo fabrics to come to the market, so I recently hit on a plan. I bought the highest quality silicone coated polyester fabric I could find (at ExtremTextil), and enough to make a large tarp. I also bought some 1" wide UHMWPE webbing that weighs 1.7 grams/.06 ounces per foot. I'm going to sew the webbing over the tarp fabric in an X, +, and [] pattern. The tie outs will be directly connected to the webbing and not to the tarp fabric--hence the webbing will take most of the force of wind etc. This is 1000lb rated webbing (I might actually use polyester grosgrain for the [] part of it though. The UHMWPE webbing is on the expensive side, whereas polyester grosgrain is quite inexpensive). Yes, way overkill for most purposes, but I want it to last a very long time, among other issues/factors I'm not going to mention here. I plan on probably adding some extra silicone coating to the top as well, to increase the UV resistance and waterproofing some more (the fabric is dark olive which will handle UV decently anyways). I might even throw in some nano or micronized titanium or zinc oxide into the thinned silicone before I apply (but nano particle forms are quite expensive, so maybe not). Again, I want it to last a very long time and be very durable for "relatively low weight" (unfortunately, all of these extras will add some ounces to the finished product). This won't be my everyday, go to tarp/shelter for my UL backpacking trips though.

[@RealRonDesantis]

Great episode! Excited for this podcast

[@1mlister]

There is a phrase from HowNot2 that I think applies to a lot of outdoors gear. They test climbing gear and label it "Super good enough". Basically strong enough you don't have to care about it in the real world. I think tent fabric strength is like that. Unless you are camping in a tornado, your will to stay outside is likely to fail before the fabric. Or the tent will pull out the ground and blow away with all your stuff in it. How many stories have you ever heard of a tent fabric ripping?

[@elr05]

My boyfriend found sage (technically “pistachio”) material for his 3D printer and I’m about to get some awesome Durston sage bits and bobs ;)

[@TennesseeSlim]

One of these years lol

[@KeithFeickert]

Nylon: 1938 PTFE: 1938 Polyester: 1958 BoPET: 1958 UHMWPE: 1962 Tyvek: 1967 ePTFE: 1969 Dyneema (DCF) = Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMWPE) fibers laminated in Mylar (BoPET - biaxially oriented polyethylene terephthalate), both of which are based on polyesters. 🤓 That means 54 years since any major fiber breakthroughs commercially and at scale. ePTFE is basically "Gore-Tex", normal PTFE is basically Teflon, the main sources of PFAS "forever chemicals". PTFE has a major advantage in that its 100% UV proof, but the environmental cost is high. Has anyone tried Tyvek 1025D for a tent material? Its technically waterproof, but breathable, the weight at 1.25oz (42.5 GSM) isn't terrible either. Plus its recyclable no?

[@justinw1765]

I've used 1443R Tyvek (commonly called Kite tyvek) for a few different things, though not a tent. Tyvek is not quite as strong at tear resistance as compared to woven nylon's and polyesters at similar weight, especially compared to pure silicone coated nylons and polyesters. Part of the reason is that because Tyvek is a non woven material. It is melt spun in kind of random patterns. They do this to save ease and cost of manufacturing. HDPE fibers/threads in a woven fabric are pretty strong though, though nowhere near the highly oriented/crystalline UHMWPE fibers ala Dyneema, Spectra, Ultra, etc There aren't a lot of woven HDPE fabrics on the market. One of the few that I know of can be found at ThinkEcoFabrics and it is called HMWPE TS440. It is on the heavy and expensive side though. If I was going to use Tyvek for a shelter like a tarp or tent, I would reinforce all the tie out areas and stress areas in the "fabric" (material). For example, I might take Tyvek tape and tape down the tarp in an X, +, and [] pattern. Then hope it doesn't rain super hard, because rain will get through if it is a very hard rain. Tyvek will handle light misting and the like ok without leaking, but very hard and sustained rains, not so much. I am curious if one could take "polycryo" and melt it into/onto the Tyvek material though (this would radically increase the WP)? How one might try that is with a clothes iron and with parchment paper between the iron and the film on top of the tyvek.

[@billpetersen298]

Anyone want to trade a Kawka55 pack, for a Kawka40? I bought the 40, before realizing a larger one was coming. The 40 hasn’t left the house. My short trips, I use a heavier pack deliberately. To train for longer heavier loads. Vancouver. Bill.

[@billpetersen298]

Kakwa.

[@billpetersen298]

Radioactive spiders?

[@mikekraut7643]

Seemed like Dan was hinting that the textile factories weaving machines can’t handle such a thin fiber as Dyneema

[@RRTheodore]

fix your audio bro, either its not that clear or its just too weak for the video and i've already maxed my sounds settings already

[@ricker76er]

Sounds fine to me.