Discerning The Most Popular Christian Podcast in the Country: Positives and Cautions

[@mallyrosas]

As a person who was in a church with a culture of spiritual abuse some years ago, I found that listening to this podcast was showing me almost the same patterns we lived and suffered. Podcasts like this give voice to victims who are so afraid of breaking from the abuse. It also helps christians who are in doubt of whether supporting someone with much success and “fruit” and fame, but who they see failing in his/her character or doing things that certainly Christ would not do to others.

[@dorothylok3166]

As a complementarian, I didn't feel that the podcast was saying that complementarianism is bad but that Driscoll's version of it was bad and abusive, but I can see how it can be taken that way. Also thank you for the reminder to think critically and through the lens of Scripture. So important!!

[@Caderic]

I have yet to listen to the podcast, but I am going to soon. But if one person, especially someone that is as discerning at Alisa, then they probably didn't distinguish the difference between his version and the "correct" version of complementarianism.

[@Jericho-xs3ju]

I don’t think Driscoll is either one. He preaches what brings the money. On one side of his mouth he teaches men to be men but with no real biblical meaning. But the other side he simps to women. He’s a fraud and has proven it by his fraud and zero remorse for the lives he ruined. He’s not spiritually abusive. He’s just flat out arrogant and by modern phsych definitions a narcissist

[@littleme3597]

@@Jericho-xs3ju Oh brother. lol.

[@jaybon2076]

My wife and I were part of a church that experienced spiritual abuse. It wasn't large, about 500. Listening to the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast was like listening to a recap of everything we experienced over the course of 10 years. I thank God that we didn't come out of the experience rejecting the faith or pushed into the progressive movement. MANY people we know from those days have become progressive or lost their faith entirely. That being said we didn't come out unscathed, and we both find it hard to trust church leadership, or to really integrate into a church community at this point. But we are healing slowly.

[@GoodGolly.MissLolly]

I’m Australian and in 2014 I holidayed in the US for several weeks. I visited the Mars Hill church in Portland and even though I found Americans to be particularly friendly during my travels, that church was my most unfriendliest experience. No one chatted to me, no one smiled at me … I just stood there on my own before finally deciding to leave. That didn’t feel like healthy church culture to me

[@tomhism]

Sounds like xenos/dwell in Columbus ohio, no one smiles. Mean people club.

[@ryanzondervan7780]

Was a member of Mars Hill from 2009-2012. As I think back on a lot of his sermons, I think one of the problems is that despite all the talk about it being "ALL ABOUT JESUS," there often was very little Jesus in Mark's preaching and a lot of sermonizing/moralizing about gender roles/"good" women staying at home with the kids/etc. My wife and I would both consider ourselves complementarians as well, but when I began dealing with severe chronic pain 11+ years ago (that continues to this day) we've found that sometimes reality is far from the shiny, happy idealized life that people from the pulpit often like to portray. I do agree though I think the podcast leans heavily towards certain voices on the theological spectrum; not sure why that is and I won't speculate. That being said as someone who was there and personally connected via my wife to former staff and pastors who got "run over by the bus" I'm very glad someone is taking the time to dig deep into the Mars Hill story.

[@anthonybianchini2373]

Christianity Today is no longer reoresentative of conservative Christianity from what I hear.

[@Hisdaughterforever44]

I will pray right now for your chronic pain.

[@Kintizen]

I think i watched Mars Hill and have looked into it's decline. I think it's a Church of it's time. I just had left a Brazilian church that did that same mistake with teens. Nothing about Jesus and more about morality and Christian ethics. It drove most away from Church. This was a huge in 2000s-2010s. So they are not so isolated in that scene.

[@ttsea8050]

Same!

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@@Kintizen- We are all human still while being Christian. Imbalanced teachings, abusive treatment of our spiritual brothers and sisters, these things are not isolated to only certain areas of the world. Abuse happens in the West and East, for example. Hypocrisy and sin? We all share such challenges and burdens.

[@AnitaSoler]

I am a 53 year old Preachers Kid. My dad was a Pastor until my 30s. I also worked in fulltime ministry in the church after my dad retired. I realized at 44 years old that I had been spiritually abused numerous times in my life. The wounds are very deep but God is faithful. I appreciate this analysis and the people who used to abuse me actually used Driscoll's teachings to do it many times!! I am going to watch this podcast with a guarded heart. Thank you!

[@sheepdogapologetics3267]

Hello. May I ask what you meant by "spiritually abused"? I ask that not in a challenging way or anything negative like that. I ask with sincere curiousity that I dont do the same towards others

[@saskiascott8181]

I'm so sorry that happened to you. May you find deep healing from the well of Christ

[@BrotherDave80]

for me, "progressive christianity" is NOT biblical Christianity at all

[@dubuyajay9964]

Amen. Anything that throws the word out is built on sand.

[@jackjones3657]

Amen! Many church "leaders" no longer love people enough to call evil, evil and good, good that they might turn from their sin. They actually enable it!

[@brahtrumpwonbigly7309]

Not just for you. That's the kind of subjectivity that leads to personal truths. Only truth that matters is God's own, and you can clearly see God is not a progressive in the Bible nor does He dictate progressive values.

[@glassmw9823]

@@brahtrumpwonbigly7309 ^^^ this

[@modernlegacy5555]

I think Jesus would agree with you. Progressive christianity completely goes against everything he taught.

[@johncolvin1283]

Why is it always about “caution” and censorship. It’s okay to listen to voices outside of your demonstration and sphere. You won’t even listen to anyone who might be labeled ‘liberal’. People have forgotten how to read and interact with ideas, and settled for just renouncing entire communities and voices.

[@jimyoung9262]

Because when the Bible gives specific instructions regarding false teaching and those who purport to be a Christian and live contrary to the scripture. In these cases there's more weight than just whether one listens to a so g on the radio or talks to a coworker.

[@SPyKeTheGroundBreaker]

I think it's "caution" RATHER THAN censorship. She is saying filter it through the correct lens when consuming this type of media rather than avoiding it all together.

[@dennisatkins9837]

When they deny scripture it’s time to turn it off. That’s what discernment is. Discernment is not wading into false doctrine to find a morsel of truth. Have NO fellowship!

[@BackToOrthodoxy]

Amen

[@valdez3245]

Agreed!

[@curt6525]

What translation of the bible is the right one please I'm new

[@BackToOrthodoxy]

@@curt6525 most of them out there are great. Some a little better than others.

[@valdez3245]

@@curt6525 , the one that you can understand and feel the Lord is talking to you. As you grow in the Lord, you can read other translations. I started with TheNew American Standard.

[@user-ks5cg5cd7m]

“Be aware of narratives.” Perfect observation. Thank you!

[@michaelledner7255]

I’m a pastor living in the same city as Mark. I personally met with Mark a few times. He made it clear to me that he has owned up to his past blunders, and in the few years he removed himself from public ministry he sought much counsel and has surrounded himself with godly leaders. I believe him. I listened to the first podcast and read quite a few articles about this situation. Everyone was guilty, including Mark, of not dealing with leadership and/or sins issues in a biblical way. Most of the offenses were caused by Mark’s poor leadership - which he’s owned up to - and not necessarily by moral issues/offenses/sins. From my perspective, these leadership issues were handled terribly by all parties. Now, after everyone handled these poorly in real-time, these offended people are telling their side of the story without the other side’s “take” on it. Prob. 18:17 "He who states his case first seems right, until his rival comes and cross-examines him." Here’s the bottom line: matters like this should be handled in the local church. Period. And why? In the local church there is a complete system of justice that Jesus instituted in Matthew 18:15-18: One on one, two or three witnesses, then the judgment: The repentant one is restored, the unrepentant one is excommunicated. This is significant because there is no system outside of this system that Jesus initiated which can bring spiritual resolve. These offended people are taking their offenses into the public forum (I.e. podcasts like this, articles that are written about Mark), in which there is no system by which anything can be proven or resolved; not legally, not within the church community. I haven’t heard all the podcasts - but I’ve heard enough. If you’ve heard them all, tell me: is this the underlying message, “Mark is abusive…a heretic - keep away from him - he’s dangerous?” If so, where is the system by which that judgment can be settled in a biblical and just way? Or is the overall message, “be cautious - be aware. This guy may be dangerous.“? And how is one to find out if that’s true or not? Yes, there are many "witnesses" but testifying outside of the "biblical court" (of Matt. 18:15-18) resolves nothing and could actually be gossip and/or slander. Are you, or are these offended brothers & sisters absolutely sure that Mark has not truly repented, has no accountability and is not living a life pleasing to God as a pastor? And if so, how did you come to that conclusion? The “out of the mouth of two or three witnesses” is clearly within the local church body. I don’t doubt that it’s possible that all these people had all these offenses. But, hearing one guy on the podcast - one who met with Mark years after his offense - and he said to Mark, “I apologize to you for not cofronting you - I chose safety over honesty.” (something like that). To which Mark replied, “that’s OK brother, because I’ve already forgiven you for being a part of the group that wanted to remove me from ministry.“ Do you see how utterly ridiculous this is? Both Mark and the other brother not talking to each other but mind-reading or choosing safety over honesty? It’s not the way Jesus taught us how to forgive (in Luke 17:3, 4 & Matt. 18:15-18). Forgiving without getting clarity on the offense and confronting your offender can do more harm than good. So, without any real resolve in the offense(s), the offended ones take their offenses to general public? Beautiful modeling for the world as to how God wants us to resolve offenses! Yes I’m upset. My dear brothers and sisters in Christ, we need to grow up and stay within the bounds of Scripture - especially regarding this area of resolving offenses! And now we, those of us listening to the podcast, without being able to question or cross-examine, we are supposed to come to some kind of conclusion about the matter? This is insane. What are we supposed to do with this information now - warn people about a man who may have repented and gotten accountability? Is each person, after listening to the podcasts, needing to have a sit down with Mark and hear his side? And then when we hear his side, isn’t it fair to get the other side‘s response to what he said? And then Mark’s rebuttal? Do you see why it’s important that we resolve these things within the local church? One other issue: People are accusing Mark of removing himself from the process of restoration to leadership. It wasn’t a “church’s discipline” issue, it was a leadership issue. Mark simply quit his job. How do we know that the leaders of Mars Hill were not planning on putting regulations and standards on Mark that would totally stifle him - and the only alternative for Mark would be for him to resign? Mark said he sensed from the Lord that this was the case and simply resigned. It was a leadership failure, not a moral failure. Moral sins are to be dealt with one one, then two or three, within the local body. In order to have hope, and to not get too upset with the way in which our brothers & sisters deal with offenses, I practice looking at my immature brothers and sisters as having a “baby-spirit“ - because babies do have the opportunity to grow up. If Mark is hiding something, and he’s doing something terribly wrong, yes - people will be hurt - but, if he’s “off”, we can be assured that in the end, he, nor you and I, will not get away with anything because our God is a just God. The overall message here is this: it’s time to deal with offenses biblically. If not, the world will look at the church as just a bunch of whiny gossips and slanderers.

[@kingjames5527]

Excellent!

[@lauramatthew9726]

I think you need to listen to the rest of the series, because you seem to have the idea that the podcast is an attack on Mark. In fact, it is an examination of the circumstances both within the American church and culture as well as the local church of MH that allowed one man, who often acted and spoke in ways that were abusive and/or extra-biblical, to have so much influence. His influence was not o lay within the local church of MH, but it was global. His sermons were some of the first sermons on iTunes. I remember listening to them as a young college student in Texas. His rise and fall (due to moral failure - because abuse, claiming authority from God on matters that were not authoritative, etc are moral failures) was in the public forum and therefore it makes sense to examine it within the public forum. If you listen to the whole series you will see the it paints him as a complicated man - as we all are. He was at times very loving, kind, and generous. At other times he was arrogant, rude, and even abusive. The podcast asks the question, “how did one man, with clear red flags, rise to such a level of influence? How did we all let this happen?” It serves as a caution and a warning to other church planters, pastors, Christians in general, etc. Paul called out Christians who had left the faith, done him harm, etc in his letters. Was he wrong to do so in a public forum? While Mark may have repented, he was guilty of moral failure and in my opinion, is therefore unqualified to continue in ministry. The Lord is our judge, but Christians should use discernment in who we allow to be our elders, pastors, and teachers.

[@vmjcross]

The abuse and alienation of dissenters continues in Phoenix. Today he is not accountable to Elders in the context of an NT church. It's Mark Driscoll Inc, and if you're not on board you're going to get run over by the bus.

[@steveshumate1983]

@@vmjcross I don’t know if it even matters. I’m my view he doesn’t fit the qualifications for elders given in Titus and Timothy. He’s not blameless among many other qualifications. But he seems to think so highly of himself that he can’t NOT be an elder even if he doesn’t qualify anymore.

[@jonathangilbert2456]

Alisa, have you thought about having Mark Driscoll on your show to talk about the Mars Hill podcast or just talk to him about his journey and how his beliefs have changed over the years?

[@dougsmith6346]

As a former Mars Hill member who left when I saw the red flags, I can tell you Mark would not do the interview. He only talks to hosts who. are sycophants at worst and sympathetic at least. Also, Mark’s doctrine has changed a lot. He plays footsie with the prosperity folks. Finally, one thing that hasn’t changed is Mark’s practices. Many of his abusive tendencies have emerged at his Trinity Church and members are sounding the alarm.

[@Apoch86]

@@dougsmith6346 ugh that's really sad to hear that it's going down some of the same paths as MH... I was hoping he'd repented and turned over a new leaf.. I saw Steven Crowder interview him on his "Ash Wednesday" segment, and it seemed like he was generally trying to do better, but Steven was also being quite the sycophant in the interview with him.. That's too bad, cause Mark has a lot of the ingredients of a solid leader for a movement, but he's just too full of himself it seems. Sad.

[@jonkenyon4876]

please do!

[@UBU41God]

Keeping authority where it belongs, in Scripture. Indeed!

[@DareusTyn]

"Follow me as I follow Christ" - Paul

[@Jbg1217]

As someone who was spiritually abused by a pastor very similar to Driscoll, I can firmly state that this podcast is not just important but very needed. I didn’t get an egalitarian leaning on this podcast they just pointed out the abuse Driscoll preached from the stage.

[@Sathiera]

Very well said! I haven’t heard of the podcast, but I was interested what you had to say about Mars Hill. I visited there with friends from my home church multiple times in 1999. It was weird! Thankful for God’s protection because a friend of mine is a Christian counselor and she said the damage/abuse from that church was horrendous!!

[@NarnianLady]

Thanks for pointing that out, instead of denying it.

[@jeffandsherriefranzwa8970]

I spent my 20's in a Christian group which became very controlling, negatively affecting my education, career, relationships, finances, who I lived with, and use of my time. Something all of us, regardless of our situation or history, have to acknowledge if we are Christians, is that people make choices, and God is sovereign. There is nothing that any human can do that is beyond God's ability to regulate. That is not the same as God being responsible for human choices and actions. Humans bear responsibility for their freewill choices. But God can bring redemption of the worst abuse humans can do. It doesn't always happen in this lifetime. People who believe in God believe that we are eternal beings and that this life is a tiny part of our entire existence. The abuses of Mark Driscoll, or those of my abusers, can be acknowledged along with faith that God, who created all that exists and who raised Jesus of Nazareth from the dead, will bring good out of it all.

[@karenz3009]

So true. I was a member of The Way International for 15 years but the Lord has used my experiences in a very positive way to help others.

[@Dan_Richardson]

Alisa, thank you so much for once again offering clarity and emphasizing a return to THE plumb-line: Holy Scripture 📖

[@meguyonbike]

This is exactly the warning signs I was seeing in the podcast. Thanks for putting it so clearly

[@Rosie-uf5ox]

So good, Alisa. You managed to articulate beautifully the things that have been nagging at me, but that I couldn’t put into words.

[@shelbycurry721]

Thank you for giving those disclaimers for people who are interested in the podcast. Love you, ‘Lisa! ❤️

[@anthonymuller2963]

Alisa, I agree it can be a beautiful thing. One version of abuse does not invalidate the teaching. Keep speaking truth.

[@AG-nw2kb]

Hey there Alisa! I just want to sincerely thank you for speaking God’s truth. I found your podcast through Cissie Graham Lynch’s podcast about a month ago. I have been hooked! God bless you, for He has used you well!

[@jerdazzo]

"Christianity Today" is a hot mess in general.

[@StriderGTS]

Exactly! Driscoll is far more legit than Christianity Today

[@LarJgrip]

@@StriderGTS Totally agree, I’m amazed at the hatred directed toward Mark. I understand that things went sideways back in the day at Mars hill and I know no details but I watch Marks sermons today and in my opinion he’s solid.

[@StriderGTS]

@@LarJgrip 90% of the complaints are from progressives mad at Mark for his more conservative takes on most things. I've listened to probably 100-150 of his sermons and I don't think I've heard a single thing unbiblical in all of that time. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says about predestination but that's "open handed" stuff. He's probably a little more humble now than he was 15 years ago and some of that probably came with simply getting older.

[@LarJgrip]

@@StriderGTS agreed

[@indigos290]

@@StriderGTS exactly. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

[@HannahClapham]

It might be interesting for someone to document the downward spiral of Christianity Today as they have done with the demise of Mars Hill.

[@sorenpx]

Elaborate.

[@RockyTop85]

YES. CT should mostly be avoided

[@HannahClapham]

@sorenpx I almost named my youngest son Soren! (My wife nixed the idea. She thought it sounded too much like Sauron from LOTR.) Christianity Today used to be strong, stable, right-down-the-middle Evangelical. Human institutions, unless they VERY purposefully hold the line, slowly drift in a humanistic direction. In other words, they slowly shift leftward. Evangelicalism itself is in trouble, right now. If Wheaton can go woke, much of the rest of the movement can tumble, as well. (And much of the non-woke portion has been gobbled up by Word of Faith, Modalism, Semi-Pelagianism, and whatnot.)

[@sorenpx]

@@HannahClapham My screen name was actually inspired by Danish philosopher Soren Kierkegaard. I ran into his work many years ago and took to it. And I think you're right about the leftward drift. Maybe we can call it the drift toward the path of least resistance.

[@HannahClapham]

@@RockyTop85 If we completely avoided everything that was somewhat tainted, we wouldn’t end up reading very much (AND we’d be trapped in a bubble we could never break out of). Christianity Today still has much to recommend it, but it should be read with a healthy dose of discernment. I myself don’t read it very much because I’m poor, and the bulk of the magazine is hidden behind a pay wall.

[@NewCreationInChrist896]

1 Peter 3:15 "But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect, "

[@joshuamartinpryce8424]

I believe that spirituality requires attention and focus. We have to always remember why we are following Christ and then build on that premise.

[@bhilldesign]

Spoiler alert, new episode includes an extensive interview with a conservative pastor and proud complimentarian who still claimed what Driscoll said about women was offensive. Driscoll exploited this ideology, the pulpit and scripture to bully women on multiple levels.

[@timothyatkinson5016]

The heart of the issue is not whether it was offensive, it is whether it is biblical. So many today in the (or claim to be) body of Christ influenced by secular culture, and or fear of being criticized/ostracized by secular society or those preaching a compromised gospel.

[@RevolutionUtena]

@@timothyatkinson5016 What the conservative complementarian pastor said was that Driscoll's approach to women WAS unbiblical.

[@petemacinnes]

I think the podcast serves as a warning to believers and to church leaders in the dangers of the pastor as ceo model.

[@stephenw2823]

I have listened to MUCH of Mark Driscoll's preaching for many years. While I don't agree with some of his theology, and I do not condone some of the personal leadership behavior he exhibited, he IS NOT part of the Emergent Movement (people like Brain MacLaren, Rob Bell etc). In fact, I think he would speak out (and probably has) against the movement and the leaders associated with it.

[@bethelshiloh]

I left the building about 12 years ago after 40 years in it. My faith was in tact. I was just doing a lot of things that felt fruitless and I desired a deeper walk and relationship with The Body. The first few years were spent set apart foraging for fellowship. The last 7 years I have been in a solid home-group. My fellowship is abundant in a very organic way (including many others outside of “my” home-group). My study of the word is richer than ever. All I miss from “the building” is corporate worship. I miss that. We are THE BODY. It’s not about a few strong, celebrity-type personalities. It was never meant to look like that. I long for community. Strive to be be led by the Spirit. Don’t be afraid to look for community outside the building. Come, Yeshua, Come!

[@littlemas2]

Thanks Alissa, I was listening through episodes 3 & 4 this week and was really challenged by some of the stories, as I listened to Mars Hill teaching and recommended it for a number of years. A young woman from my church in Minnesota even went on staff there, and after the collapse of the church she is not walking with the Lord now. I even went as far as applying for a pastoral position about a year before things began to unravel! That being said, your cautions also ring true. I was concerned about the tone of the podcast as well, and I do feel a specific narrative being developed. As a current church member of my church recommended the podcast to me (she had also listened to Driscoll), I was able to send over your video to perhaps help her have a nuanced view of the series. I think it is easy to get caught up "on a side" and thus start to attribute all things bad to your supposed opponents.

[@contenderfortruth]

Very well done. I think you're to nice and diplomatic when addressing false teachers but you also have a refreshing take on them. I enjoy your positive attitude as I tend to swing on the other side and your analysis keeps me centered.

[@allthingsthroughhim3856]

Yep, same thoughts here

[@Alan112573]

Jeff, I am in the same boat. I tend to have little empathy for these false teachers, and ppl like Alisa help keep me balanced with Truth AND love.

[@contenderfortruth]

@@Alan112573 That's why she has a podcast and I don't. Haha!! I wouldn't be able to keep my composure.

[@Alan112573]

@@contenderfortruth Ha! Same

[@elissabellajoy]

My thoughts exactly. I also love Alisa's tone on every level 😉😍

[@marymasthe1st324]

Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. Respect to all who believe in specific gender roles. Think some of us tried the prescribed roles and nearly lost our families and faith altogether. Let’s approach it with Grace and humility that our views on gender roles may not be gospel truth. As Alissa Rightly said, this is not something to be divided over.

[@dctrbrass]

I can understand what you're saying. I don't think people are studying the gender stuff completely. I think cultural bias/tradition is playing into stuff, rather than people letting the Bible inform our conclusions. Case in point for me is 1 Tim. 3...in the Greek, there's no gender pronouns. I think there's a bit of bias in the translations. But I still need to study this in the context of the rest of the Bible. I think this issue is an example of why we all need to be far more diligent and far less biased in our Bible study. And truly reach out to the Holy Spirit and demonstrate a lot more humility. Studying scripture takes a ton of honesty b/c we have to put down our personal biases and forget what we think that we know....and study/pray to discover what's actually being said. But yeah it's not really an issue to divide over. What we should be addressing is these preachers who are teaching false doctrine, just like the apostles did. Cheers.

[@dr.danieldeepak2451]

We keep the authority where it belongs, the Bible- excellent analysis. Thank you.😊

[@davebannister323]

I have said for a long time " Be aware of the Narrative " , The enemy is the " God of the Air Waves " , we therefore need to be asking God for Discernment . Thanks Alisa for your podcasts , very informative . I encourage my brothers & sisters to Read the Bible ( Gods Word ! )

[@mandybennett1119]

So helpful! Great reminders. Thank you, Alisa!

[@KJ-lb4tj]

A big issue is emotional immaturity within the church... Within society. But in the church, that equates with spiritual immaturity because Jesus/God is also a relationship that requires emotional maturity in order to relate well and maturely.

[@txazfan5049]

My observation (informed by several more knowledgable writers) is - the embrace of egalitarianism is almost always followed by embrace and advocacy of LGBTQ+ lifestyles within 2-5 years. Not surprising, given that both viewpoints are justified by 1) newly "rediscovered" interpretations/understandings of relevant Biblical texts and 2) an appeal to ignore allegedly outdated and merely cultural norms held by the Biblical authors.

[@lindajohnson4204]

Mars Hill under Driscoll and his hand picked elders wasn't egalitarian at all. The former, thrown-under-the-bus members, and voted-out elders, were definitely not equal with the group who took over. In this video, egalitarianism is contrasted with complementarianism, and seems to be used only in the sense of being the opposite view from yhst. That is not the only meaning of egalitarianism, and in fact, I've never heard it used that way. But since the word basically has to do with equality of people, I cannot and will not join in with condemning everything that goes by that word.

[@christian1172-z9e]

Wow! That’s not been my experience. I know a lot of people who have gone egalitarian, but none have embraced the sexual ethics of our current culture as far as LGBTQ goes. Are these things you just heard about in a vague way or do you have many specific names of people who have actually some that? I mean is it just hearsay or your legitimate experience?

[@fathervader]

(Good, consistent, historical Biblical exegesis will lead to an egalitarian view of the sexes as it relates to ministry and our roles as followers of Christ. That same good, consistent, histroical Biblical exegesis does not do the same for LGBTQ+ lifestyles...)

[@christian1172-z9e]

I’m not egalitarian, but I agree that they aren’t based on the same hermeneutics at all. I don’t understand why people keep correlating their two.

[@vanessaloy1049]

That isn’t true in Assembly of God churches at all.

[@WholeBibleWithGeorgeCrabb]

I agree! The word of God must be the filter to avoid abuse.

[@clarkemorledge2398]

Alisa, I am not convinced that Mike Cosper, the primary writer from the Rise and Fall podcast, is an egalitarian. He regularly writes for The Gospel Coalition, which by confession, is complementarian. Not everyone at Christianity Today is egalitarian. They just recently hired Russell Moore to be Public Theologian, and Moore is an outspoken complementarian. Your viewers should be aware of these things (full disclosure: I am a complementarian as well)

[@yjk5737]

I agree, and I'm personally not staunchly complementarian or egalitarian. I think Christianity Today has a mix of people that probably associate with each other in part because they don't know each other that deeply. On the one hand you have new people like Russell Moore. Then there are also new people like Heather Thompson Day hosting podcasts there now, who I'd have a hard time saying I consider to really be a fellow believer based on some of the things I've heard her say previously. Has Russell Moore heard her say those things though? I'm guessing probably not, so that makes it easier to partner in the workplace and think you are on the same page. EDIT: To clarify, some of the things I refer to Heather Thompson Day saying came from a podcast she did where she spoke positively of her matchmaking success in connecting an unmarried couple into an extramarital sexual relationship leading to a child out of wedlock and where she also praised the idea of Christian women dating and marrying unbelieving men, among other things. Those can sound like isolated instances of sinful behavior, but compounded they have significant social consequences for the entire community of faith. God wants you being sanctified to be holy more than just married and people like her will lie to you and tell you otherwise.

[@jamersbazuka8055]

The Gospel Coalition says a lot of things.

[@eternalrealist2836]

Russell Moore is a total progressive, regardless of his "stated position " - and so is Gospel Coalition. The views on crt present "another gospel".

[@clarkemorledge2398]

@@eternalrealist2836 Do you have actual evidence to support your assertion? Russell Moore, along with The Gospel Coalition, affirms the inerrancy of Scripture, and the classic doctrines of the Christian faith, in line with the Reformed tradition within evangelicalism. This is completely at odds with the worldview associated with Critical Race Theory, which is Neo-Marxist. Surely, you are not associating the inerrancy of Scripture with Neo-Marxism. What then are you claiming and why?

[@wanbaclone]

@@eternalrealist2836 The progressive Christians who roundly denounce The Gospel Coalition as a fundamentalist website would get a good laugh out of this.

[@grantgarner8756]

Thanks for the thoughtful commentary. I listened to the entire series as well, but I never got the sense that complementarianism was portrayed as by-nature abusive, only their highly sexualized and narrow (& education-devaluing) version of complementarianism

[@rosalindafortier2702]

I agree completely

[@jwarner3949]

Completely agree. With all due respect, the host is just incorrect and being defensive of the Comp position. In fact, I believe the podcast had other Comps interviewed to discuss how Driscoll's version was so bad. Come on, even other Comp organizations didn't want anything to do with Driscoll toward the end (TGC, a29).

[@DualCannons]

I’ve listened to every episode. I’m a complimentarian. The podcast does not portray it as abusive. Driscoll went overboard with his definition of womanhood and that was abusive. Cosper is an egalitarian I believe, and that shines through. Wouldn’t say he portrays it as abusive at all.

[@s2stvseek2save]

Listening to this podcast now. I find it very interesting.. thank you for the advise.. good counsel.

[@nathanmarone]

Disagree re: presentation of complementarianism. There are a couple of keys to this. 1. Since the podcast is almost exclusively about MH, it is a reflection of MH's particular brand of complementarianism. Reasonable people can assume that not every complementarian church practices their beliefs as MH did. And reasonable people can assume that some complementarian churches were similar to MH, given its popularity and influence. 2. Every area of theology can be stretched into dangerous territory. So if you are an egalitarian, like myself, you should be aware of ways in which egalitarianism can be stretched to be abusive. Given the popularity of complementarianism in evangelical culture, it probably pays to take a hard look at how it can be abused. Rise and Fall does a good job of that.

[@wanbaclone]

Thank you. I don't think "Rise and Fall..." is anti-complementarian at all. It simply highlights how comlementarian belief can be used to be abusive and destructive. It does not actually label the belief/doctrine as such. For Childers to assume an implicit denunciation of complementairianism, she's not actually helping out her viewers here. She's just making an assumption based on a feeling. I think we all know what happens when you assume...

[@DelicueMusic]

@@wanbaclone This is almost exactly my thoughts. I think she was slightly taken aback and didn’t realize that Mike Cosper was trying to highlight the abuse and not simply the theology. In fact, Cosper seems to be on the reformed side himself, according to the bonus episode with Joshua Harris.

[@claudiabailey5302]

This came just as I have been listening to it. As a Christian from the UK i never even heard of Mars Hill. It’s actually quiet disturbing in places. But it is excellently done and very interesting and compelling.

[@davidcortez552]

Well spoken and insightful. Great commentary.

[@ronbridegroom8428]

IMO, people spend way, way too much time listening to other people telling them what to believe and not doing any Bible study themselves

[@jimmyboy131]

I agree! Many years ago I realized I knew very little about what the bible actually says, even though I'd grown up in an evangelical church. So I chose to focus on the Old Testament, and began with the book I knew the least about: Obadiah. Then I continued reading and re-reading all of the Old Testament, and did that for a few years, and pretty much read the New Testament mostly as reference for the Old Testament, since I was already very familiar with it. It changed everything about the way I understand God and the world generally. I recommend this to every believer.

[@malissiajones7761]

In my humble opinion, you just hit the nail squarely on the head.

[@tonybinder9392]

Good video and fair assessment!

[@joshbenfield8410]

Thank you for this. As my wife and I listened to this, we came from the perspective of our own church hurt by the hands of a narcissistic leader. It actually drove us deeper into historic Christianity and biblical authority. Alisa, your take on complementarian v. egalitarian in this video was exactly what we thought we were perceiving. Thank you again.

[@dctrbrass]

wow same here. just had the same experience with a narcissistic leader and had to walk away. thanks for sharing.

[@MikeSessler]

Good thoughts & cautions here. I am an episode or so behind, but I was actually quite surprised that the podcast is as balanced as it is coming from CT. I fully expected it to be very one-sided, and feel they've done a decent job of telling the story. There is some bias to be sure; many times they played clips of Mark's messages followed by aghast comments by others, when I was thinking, "Yeah, that's actually pretty biblical." It's an interesting story, and it does highlight the innate problems that arise when a man is the head of the church--a role Jesus rightfully should have. Sadly, Americans love their celebrities, so we will continue to be hurt by celebrity pastors.

[@toolegittoquit_001]

How is Mark Driscoll still pastoring a Church ?

[@User_Happy35]

It's possible for someone to repent for their sins. Not sure if he has but I don't think past sins repented of disqualify you from pastoring. At the end of the day it's the church body that allows him to keep pastoring them.

[@diane235]

Unfortunately, he has not repented, but has taken his abuse to all new levels.

[@LarJgrip]

@@diane235 Can you confirm these accusations Diane?

[@allisonsimmonscrenshaw5763]

It’s more the question how anyone can go to his church after being made aware of who he is and what he has done and is still doing.

[@LarJgrip]

@@allisonsimmonscrenshaw5763 And what is it that he’s still doing Allison?

[@erbylopez6003]

Thank you for the insights and counsel. I think it would have been wiser to wait until the podcast had finished its run before making this kind of video. The most recent episode had an interview with Sam Storms, a reformed complimentarian pastor who I believe puts forth a very positive view of complimentarianism. Not saying the overall tone of the podcast as a whole won’t be bias one way or the other when it’s all done. But I think that judgement should be held when we’ve heard the whole story that the podcast is telling.

[@paulstatezny4185]

3:56 "One of the narratives that's put forth in the podcast is that complementarianism is in and of itself abusive. Now, they never explicitly say this, but it's definitely the implication..." I'm a complementarian, but I didn't hear those "anti-complementarian" undertones you claim are there. I guess it's a matter of how you read between the lines. Solid advice about awareness of narratives and consulting scripture though! Cheers.

[@NarnianLady]

The problem is not term 'complementation' or 'conservative'.. the issues were, and are, how women are seen as less-than (no matter how that is theologically justified, or not).. Many complementation women are blessed to have an 'egalitarian' marriage, where they are truly valued and loved as a co-heir of Christ.. many complementation women sure do speak publicly, write books, etc..!! But there is a darker side in the movement that enables abusive men to justify their misogyny. or even allows boys to develop an abusive mindset. People are shaped by what they hear, and MD was a bully par excellence, teaching men to see their wives as their 'porn stars' instead of valued daughters of God. His teachings were simply creepy. as it turned out, men were not exactly thriving either... In the end, false teachings damage both sexes and distort the beauty of marriage/relationships.

[@melfree2545]

This is exactly what I got from it too. The episode where they discussed how Driscoll frequently taught or did things that contributed to the “Christian pornification of marriage” or however they phrased it, made me particularly sad for the people in his church.

[@ForeverSongMinistries]

Fantastic commentary, I was completely unaware of this community. Great tips to utilize natural and spiritual discernment.

[@paulmartin8759]

Alisa, I greatly appreciate your insight, understanding and balanced approach to this subject. I am unfortunately well aware of the damage that can be done by abusive church experiences. Of course Mark Driscoll is a gifted communicator who challenges people in a way that communicates a vision for a greater spiritual experience. But the main, if not the only issue, is not in his preaching but in his treatment of anyone who disagrees with him. It may be narcissism, or just the corrupting influence of power where no real accountability exists. I will not be surprised in the least if a more public and devastating failure occurs at his current church in Scottsdale.

[@paper_pirate]

Definitely some questionable theology in the podcast. I have been listening and have struggled with some of the views presented. However, I struggle more with the fact that a pastor like Mark Driscoll was given such a large platform and such a large amount of support from various pastors. The red flags, in my opinion, were present from the inception. I enjoy listening and learning from the podcast, but discernment is certainly necessary. Thanks for sharing your view Alisa.

[@miked5562]

He was the only one who managed to get and then keep my attention and respect when I was a young dumbass guy living selfishly. I look at it now like getting a slap behind the head from an older brother because I was being an idiot. I didn't agree with every ounce of every position he held, but he was the one who broke through and got me to understand that I needed Jesus. All the other stuff is just sad, to me. I still see some of his stuff from his new church in Arizona, and he seems to have mellowed out quite a bit, which I guess seems fitting.

[@TheLincolnrailsplitt]

Your point about his large degree of support is well made.

[@strivin4excellence09]

It’s interesting how everyone can hear something and walk away with something different. I’ve listened to all episodes and never felt that they were promoting the messages regarding complementariansim that you suggest.

[@todddavidson3299]

I heard it-particularly because she and I are aware of the beliefs of the people sharing on the podcast. That’s why she is encouraging ‘awareness’ during listening.

[@strivin4excellence09]

@@todddavidson3299 I think it’s unfair to make such a definitive statement about their intention unless they specifically told you that.

[@macaibhistin]

Indeed. We all hear something different. We all read things differently. This is the problem that permeates all doctrines, regardless of the faith

[@jaclynh1958]

I, like many in these comments, did not see a negative view of complementarianism, but a concerned dissection of Driscoll’s brand of it. It is interesting to me, as someone who has been severely abused by multiple narcissistic pastors, that this issue is what is being talked about as people are critiquing the podcast. You say, “we need to talk about abuse” and then don’t talk about it. You are using your own platform, much like Mark did, to get views, promote your book, and present YOUR ideas. Those of us on the other side of abuse needed the CT podcast. Finally someone had the courage to dig in and really expose the problems. Everyone who listens to that podcast should be flat on their faces before the Lord asking, “have I taken part in something like this?” Chances are if you haven’t your “pastor” has.

[@rickpresley63]

"What do the scriptures teach?" is a question people need to be trained to answer. Too, too many think they can pick up the Bible, find a proof text, and say, "See? This is what the Bible says." The SOTM tells us to mutilate ourselves to avoid sinful practices if it is read without understanding.

[@weeklybiblestudy777]

Hmmm 🤔, the same could be said about “What do the Scriptures teach” . check out Kevin Thompson at (beyond the fundamentals )on KZbin.

[@weeklybiblestudy777]

Also check out a guy who has a KZbin channel called (idol killer), he recently did a video on Alyssa and another gentleman who were in a conversation and he (idol killer) brings up some good points.

[@dctrbrass]

I mean, yeah I agree. I'm good with the exegesis that I learned in seminary. Couple that with a humility to deny self and acknowledge my biases before I open the book, and I think that's a good approach. Cultural context, context of the passage, context of the rest of the book, context of the rest of the Bible, Greek/Hebrew Hermeneutics, etc etc etc. People who claim to follow Christ need to learn how to study, so that they understand what is being said. If people understand what is being said for themselves, there would be a lot more unity against false doctrine. I feel that people are letting denominational rules drive their understanding of what scripture is saying. That's a bad approach in my opinion.

[@weeklybiblestudy777]

@@dctrbrass I heard the saying and I really like it “all the Bible is for us but not all the Bible is directly to us”.

[@princesskassandra4253]

Great analysis Alisa. I have been fascinated by the podcast too, but Im glad to hear you pointing out these issues. I agree with you about the people they interviewed and the slant against complementarianism. The narrative at times has concerned me. Nice work!

[@ztrussell]

"The abuse of an idea does not make the idea itself wrong." Yes!

[@christian1172-z9e]

This is true. I do believe there are some ideas coming out of the CBMW that are wrong and lead to abuse. It’s not an abuse of the idea. It’s bringing ideas to their natural conclusions.

[@JBAbullitt]

Grateful for this! I listened to the series, twice, and took the same feeling away; pretty anti-fundamental Christian … Painting Calvinistic views as inherently negative. Setting that aside, as you have made mention, excellent series with a tremendous amount of warning regarding spiritual abuse. Very good.

[@bridgetgolubinski]

As always, very insightful. Thanks

[@lydialuz6658]

Dear All, Grace, Peace, Mercy and Love! The last verse of the Psalm 137 used to disturb me. I used to think that it was horrible and could not understand why it is in The Holy Scripture. Until, thanks to God, I realised that the infants mentioned in it are the children of babylon daughter (verse 8), and that babylon is the mother of the abominations in the earth (Revelation 17:5). Every blessing! ❤️

[@yjk5737]

In the episode they did about Josh Harris, they had on one of the hosts of the Where Do We Go From Here podcast. That podcast presents itself as Christian but is mostly about getting rid of Christian beliefs about sex. Like a lot of people nowadays it uses the ambiguous label "purity culture" to refer not just to the 1990s movement but to the historic Christian sexual ethic. You see that a lot where people will use that label to get others onboard thinking they are just talking about issues and problems with 1990s purity culture. Then once people are listening, the bait and switch reveal is that by "purity culture" they actually mean core truths of scripture.

[@toomanymarys7355]

Josh Harris was never a Christian. He believed that you can manipulate God into giving you the life you want, like a heavenly Santa Claus, and all you have to do is follow a magical spell.

[@tcressman]

This was helpful, thank you

[@Vlabar]

From 2010 to 2015 I cautioned those who were Driscoll fans. Discernment is lacking in the body.

[@kevinsolveson5480]

"You can't judge a theology on its abuses" -- Alisa Childers. Amen!

[@firelight_ministries]

Couldn’t agree more. Amen.

[@baronreed8131]

There has always been ONLY a remnant out of the many. Find those that look not to be seen but those who move (out front but in the background.) Find the remnant and hold on tight!

[@jeanniestaller797]

Thank you for your sane analysis. It's so disheartening to hear Cristians criticizing each other. I'm guilty too and recognize that even honest hearts still see the same scripture passages differently.

[@joachimfrey425]

Exactly the center line must be the Word of God, scripture. The words of Jesus : Love your neighbor as you love yourself, will if lived by today, make many problems we have, disappear.

[@rigavitch]

And this is why I'm Orthodox... ☦🙏🏼♥ Love your channel God bless you from UK 🇬🇧

[@JP-rw1oh]

Thanks for sharing your perspective on the podcast so far. I've been listening to it and share some of your thoughts about the presentation of Complementarianism/Egalitarianism. Everyone has a perspective and it's necessary to be aware of that and look for it. (Which is what you're saying.)

[@HannahClapham]

I’m still undecided on whether “slippery slope” issues such as egalitarianism vs. complementarianism should be issues of division or not. Unchecked complementarianism can indeed become patriarchal in some rather unbiblical ways. But egalitarianism-checked or unchecked-is a dangerous force, spreading destruction wherever it goes.

[@brahtrumpwonbigly7309]

All I can say is that the Bible addresses these things. It doesn't ever advocate for pure egalitarianism, but it does say to submit ourselves to the authorities in our lives, even when they abuse us. As heartless as that can seem on the surface (as a result of modern politics), there is a very down to Earth explenation there too. Life isn't always going to go our way, and people will fail us, but we should pursue the lifestyle God dictated to us. If we join into a family unit, the Bible has told us that it is women above children and men above women. The only advice I can give is that women absolutely have to be careful who they choose to marry and men need to be careful who they choose as well. Remember, the Bible also told straight up slaves to submit to their masters. The point of life is to glorify God, not to acheive freedom, and we've been shown that we don't always have to launch a revolution to do so.

[@HannahClapham]

@Brah, Trumpwon,bigly I’m a dyed-in-the-wool complementarian. And my point was that, contrary to what Alisa said, we may indeed need to break fellowship with egalitarians. Egalitarianism is the camel’s nose edging itself slowly into the tent. It is a precursor to the Progressive Christianity she stands so fervently against. I am NOT, however, a complementarian “right-or-wrong” sectarian. Egalitarians voice some legitimate criticisms. And the Bible is EXPLICITLY egalitarian in terms of ontology. Galatians 3:28. So, yes, we need to submit to authorities under less than ideal circumstances. But in the world to come, abusive leaders will come under greater scrutiny and judgment. Quite frankly, I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes. My opinion is that very, very few complementarian men are exercising their authority in substantially biblical ways. It’s a tough role to fulfill well. It’s hard work. And we’d better mind our p’s and q’s! By the way, nobody knows who won the last election. I don’t. You don’t. Nobody does.

[@christian1172-z9e]

Authority is not absolute. All but one of the disciples were martyred for obeying God rather than man. Peter even said it outright. In the Old Testament we see the midwives in Egypt defying their pharaoh. Rahab disobeys, Abigail disobeys. They are blessed. When Saul wanted his soldiers to kill the unarmed priests they all disobeyed. And good for them. God speaks of all these in a positive light. Obedience is not absolute. That’s not what the Bible says.

[@HannahClapham]

@@christian1172-z9e You are absolutely correct…BUT that does not translate into an easy escape clause to submission. All leaders-political, spousal, parental, occupational, ecclesiastical, educational-are imperfect human beings. Opting for obeying God rather than man must be a last resort rather than a “go to” position. Or else you’re rarely really submitting at all. Excess in either direction is not pretty: Subordinates who have no will of their own and can be ordered around like robots. And conversely, subordinates who agree to submission in principal but who never really submit. Troublingly, the excesses are far more common than healthy practice. And both patriarchalism and feminism are destroying the church, each in their own way.

[@christian1172-z9e]

In my experience,complementarian and patriarchal churches have a habit of erring on the side of telling the abused person to stay with their abuser. It’s easy to react to the “easy divorce” culture by making women stay in situations where they should be rescued. The Pharisees were worried about doing the “right” thing and often ended up being oppressive. I see that tendency in conservative circles. I can’t tell you how many domestic abuse cases I know about. Because they were told to submit to verbal abuse, and the abuse grew. When a woman submits to small abuses it usually grows. So if they wait till it’s “extreme”, it’s already too late.

[@steveshumate1983]

It’s funny how on one of the early episodes they briefly (briefly) note that John MacArthur was one of the earliest objectors to mark driscoll in evangelicalism. Johnny Mac is definitely complementarian but he clearly warned everyone of Driscoll.

[@benjousan8470]

When did the podcast say anything against complementarianism? I think the major stance this podcast took was confronting the masculine-dominant version of it that has been labeled the de facto standard.

[@RockyTop85]

I’m glad she’s calling this out. I did in my review of it. This excellent, especially about complementarianism

[@rakastellar8955]

I am complementarian and as a woman, it actually terrifies me that I have to be the same as a man. I do not want to be the same as a man. So as you said women have different vocations is beautiful, because we are biologically different. And I don't want to do the same things as a man.

[@christian1172-z9e]

I’ve heard this kind of sentiment before. I definitely believe men and women are different. But I’m curious. What is it that men do that terrifies you?

[@marlu6373]

@@christian1172-z9e ya we man stand up and pee and afterwords we don"t even wash our hands and then we go to war or bloody battles like nothing unusual .now do you as a woman want to be in dug outs with me?

[@christian1172-z9e]

@@marlu6373 I'm not sure what you are responding to. I asked a question about what terrified her. Would it be scary to be in a dug out? Of course. Most men are terrified too. Considering my size, it would be unwise for me to do such a thing and yes, I'll leave that to the bigger, stronger men. I'm grateful to those men.

[@kenethsoberano]

Mars Hill was great for those that stood firm on letting their yes be yes and no be no. NEVER sign a church membership form and subject yourself to human authority/abuse. Let Christ and scripture alone be your king.

[@okayboomernyc]

I just filmed & uploaded my testimony this past week by the Grace of God. Amen!!!

[@Musicman4Christ]

King's Kaleidoscope produced the music for the podcast...I turned it off after the first half of the episode (plus as Alisa said, the history behind the demise of Mars Hill is being analyzed through a certain narrative). The last 30 seconds of this video pretty much sums up my view,

[@Mario-dd9dh]

When I heard about Mars Hill I automatically thought about Rob Bell and his church!

[@pammentzer3584]

"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged (by God) more strictly. We all stumble in many ways." (James 3:1-2a)

[@austin5640]

U get it. Few do but u nailed it

[@obserjasons]

great thoughts on complimentarianism, the podcast's bias is subtle, but after a few episodes becomes more and more obvious

[@stateboy0522]

Thank you for this specific discernment. I liked the exposure of Mars hill from the podcast but thought it was a little bias and couldn't put my finger on how.

[@BloodBoughtMinistries]

Recently I listened to two deconversion testimonies that both started with these people being in churches where they were taught that speaking in gibberish is tongues. Then they find out it is not tongues etc etc. The one guy went into more a reformed direction and then de-converted, thr4 other person, a lady, she saw the truth in scripture and then de-converted. Both these people are biblical literate, much more tan many Christians today.

[@bengough6955]

Interestingly I didn't find that the podcast devalued complimentarianism per se but it certainly shone a light on how it might be abusive. Remember the podcasts are a quick tour through 15-20 years of stuff and obviously are looking at the whole gamut of what went wrong.

[@evktheartist]

As a complimentarian, my wife and I believe in standing on the word of God. We have attended churches that were more liberal in stature and have seen abuses by women in leadership as well. We have left churches that spiritually abused people on both sides. I love God and I love my wife dearly and I personally want to please God and follow scripture rather than culture. It's only in the last few years that we really decided to stand firm on complimentarianism. I've worked in a mainly 90% women's field and I've worked in a male dominated field and have noticed a huge difference between women and men and how they approach and or deal with issues overall. So in my humble opinion men and women compliment each other in their definitive differences. The saying "can't judge a philosophy or a teaching on its abuses" is so true. btw, in my largely female dominated workplace, I often experienced women touching me inappropriately (without my consent) and repeatedly spoken to in highly inappropriate behavior (sexually) by women and in fact I was one of the very first men to report such behavior and then laughed at by female superiors. They told me I should appreciate it because I'm a man. I did not appreciate it no matter who the woman was because I love my wife and want to honor her.

[@crossroadschurchofthenazar1836]

I find it interesting that you (Alisa) are a complimentatian and yet you speak as an egalitarian. Yes, it is true that you do not stand behind a pulpit in a church but you do conduct yourself as a pastor/teacher and even evangelist in your podcasts. I do enjoy your teaching and we recently used your two part series of the list of 23 statements by a progressive Christian that you did with Mike Winger. We divided them up into individual claims and responses, played a clip and then discussed your teachings. We did this in Sunday School and it was well received. Thank you.

[@kristabradleymusic]

So well said 🙏💕

[@stephanies577]

Thanks for the comments, I agree with your assessment on some of the unstated, unacknowledged bias I would say is present in the CT podcast. Discernment is always necessary, but I would definitely caution CT to be careful that they don’t stumble into similar spiritually misleading tactics that they rightly condemn.

[@willowbrook2717]

Christianity Today hasn't been very discerning for years now.

[@irmiyaawilliams7800]

On the podcast there was a pastor's wife being interviewed and she complained saying that a pastor's wife was "expected to be quiet and gentle" as if that was a bad thing and all I could think was ummm yea (1 Pet 3:4)

[@richardslaymaker3386]

Isn’t the doctrine of sufficiency itself a bias though? If that is a doctrine which people hold to, and impose on the scriptural text, then that will be their bias towards an interpretation right?

[@saskiascott8181]

Great point - everyone has a bias. It's impossible for us not to

[@reubenmartin1930]

The latest episode (Sept 10) helped give a lot more balance to the critique of spiritual abuse from a complementation view point (Sam Storms). I think the ability to provide that balance is a bit hampered by the fact that most of the people who were involved with Mars and willing to be interviewed were from that part of the emergent church that has since morphed into progressive Christianity.

[@transparentzwindows]

Encouraging analysis and direction.

[@a.k.davies3902]

It’s heartbreaking to see some Christians will listen to the preaching of teachers like Mark and take his teachings as gospel, when all they need to do is open up their Bibles and cross-reference his teachings to biblical truth. Awesome video Alisa, keep it up!!

[@christian1172-z9e]

I fell pray to those kinds of teachings when I was younger. I read my Bible a lot. Way more than most. But I was taught from a young age to see the Bible a certain way and it causes me to read the verses through that lens. I’m guessing there were people like that at Mars Hill too.

[@a.k.davies3902]

@@christian1172-z9e I think you’re right Brandie. The cult I was born into used that exact same approach.

[@glassmw9823]

Good video. I would argue that the role of men and women in the church *can* be something worth dividing over. Ultimately, it starts with what men and women are called to do, then rolls over into *who* God has designed men and women *to be* in life, in the church, and in the world. We either believe God’s word and abide by it, or we don’t. It’s one of those topics I believe Satan uses to get a foothold and whisper into the ears of Christians, “…did God really say…?” Satan has been doing it from the beginning, we’d be wise to abide by and trust in God and His word rather than the expectations and demands of the world.

[@christian1172-z9e]

Of course the different sides are all quoting the Bible. We need to be humble enough to acknowledge *we* can be the one with the blind spot.

[@glassmw9823]

@@christian1172-z9e there is a correct, right, faithful, and God-centered hermeneutic in interpreting Scripture, and there is an unbiblical, worldly, and faithless way in interpreting the Scriptures that appeases the ideas of man and ways of the world. The ultimate question that needs to be asked here is: “will I/we follow God, or will I/we follow the ways of the world?” Satan quoted Scripture when testing Jesus in the desert, but that didn’t mean he was siding with and being obedient to God.

[@christian1172-z9e]

Right! And there are patriarchal, egalitarian, and complementarians who all have studied sincerely and who believe they are following God. That’s why the church has first tier and second tier doctrine. If someone disagrees with first tier doctrine they are a heretic, but we are to live in peace over our smaller disagreements.

[@glassmw9823]

@@christian1172-z9e and often times egalitarians often give into and side with the LGBT agenda and sexual revolution over against Scripture and God’s word and will.

[@christian1172-z9e]

That might happen. And many complementarians side with the red pill community in some very wrong ways. We all need to immerse ourselves in the scriptures and have faithful people in our lives. There’s no logical reason why egalitarianism and LGBQT need to be correlated. None of the egalitarians I know would approve of gay relationships.