Is the Social Justice Movement Compatible with the Gospel? with Neil Shenvi and Pat Sawyer

In the past few years, we have experienced a cultural upheaval surrounding issues of race, sexuality, gender, identity politics, and social justice. Dr. Neil Shenvi and Dr. Pat Sawyer join the podcast to talk about their new book, Critical Dilemma, a thorough, well-documented, fair, and truthful resource that will likely become the go-to primer for understanding the infusion of critical theory into Western society. For anyone left feeling confused, frustrated, and bewildered by the radical shift in culture, this episode will help you navigate the chaos of culture.
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[@danielwoodard680]

OUTSTANDING program. You are living and shouting out from the front edge of modern philosophy as it sweeps across culture.

[@wordsofjames]

The answer is demonstrably and definitely, NO.

[@garyjelich4709]

The Bible can't be "Eurocentric", since the Bible wasn't written in Europe but in the Middle East!

[@warrenhairston9728]

I presented a Sunday School series on this topic a year ago. Was somewhat surprised to discover that many in the class, including the Pastor, didn't really understand why we needed to look at this topic. I took the approach that much of the teaching from Marxism ("workers are being oppressed") and Cultural Marxism ("cultural groups are being oppressed") is designed to destroy authority in society, leading toward Identity Marxism ("my identity is being oppressed") which has the ultimate goal of tearing down the authority of God and His Church in society one person at a time. This movement mirrors the tactics of Satan in the Garden of Eden: the concept of oppression ("God knows you will be like Him"), approaching the "oppressed worker" (Eve) first to weaken the authority structure from within, etc. Glad to see more Christians being alerted to these deceptions of Satan, which scripture commands us to tear down.

[@AZRefugeeMinistry]

So good!!! I listened to this podcast twice, and feel i could learn more if I listened to it again. I appreciated the explanation of critical theory along with its prodigies. Also, the warnings to the church are important to heed. I appreciated the humble and respectful tone/attitude encouraged towards those who may not agree. Thanks, Alissa!!

[@melissapiatt573]

Excited for Alisa Childer music. Got my Zoe Girl album for Christmas at age 14 and now my daughter listens to your music at age 9. 37 now and even though its very poppy for my tastes lol I love that we can sing it together. Love the way God is using you.

[@klee8175]

Just wow. Finally putting intelligent dialogue to what has seemed intrinsic to me. Discovering the correct terminology and understanding opposing perceptions will be so helpful. Just ordered the book.

[@RainbowMan.]

Beautiful!! 😍

[@Bonddeeee]

Just pre-ordered the book. Read James Linsday's Cynical theories and Roger Scruton's Fools, Frauds, and Firebrands, and Douglas Murray's Madness of Crowds but looking forward to seeing this irenic discussion in applied to the church and from a strong Christian perspective.

[@patricksawyer6213]

Thank you!

[@michellepeterson6320]

Not compatible with the gospel. Thank you, each of you, for your diligence, faithfulness, and scholarship!

[@themilkywayuniverse6962]

Such a good podcast good job fam

[@ericevearitt3317]

The resounding and undeniable answer is a definitive NO!!! I'm so glad and thankful for inviting these brothers to help discern the cultural upheaval we're up against and why the unbiblical Social Justice Movement is NOT compatible with the Biblical Gospel. SDG!!!

[@carriestout6422]

When God considers something unnatural as Paul explains in Romans 1, Paul was talking about abomible sins due to people who chose to not thank God. God gave them over to the depravity of their minds. Jesus can save the alphabet community but first the person must repent! The good news is that Jesus will forgive.

[@michaelgonzalez1824]

why is it when some of these people talk about this so called gay community, they always start of by making some type of apology or making some type of excuse for some of them, i heard a pastor one time say that they dont do the same for the people who abuse their wifes or for the men that cheat on their wifes when talking about those people 🤔

[@jacquelineandrea8172]

I think I heard the same or very similar sermon preached by Voddie Baucham.

[@mbfrommb3699]

The problem here is that neither Voddie (if that is the pastoral reference you're making) or you know your Bible very well. voddie and many Pastors today are biblically illiterate which is why for over 30 years the American Church has been against this and has "lost the battle" over it. You'd think that if God's judgment was coming over the homosexual or LGBTQ+ movement it wouldn't have flourished like it has with the Church and its morality movement. Today's American Christians for the most part are some of the dumbest people I have ever met in my 30+ years as a Christian. The loss of the culture war is the result of the collapse of the US, not the cause. But I'll come back to this. First, lets' deal with this issue. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Now the original says this who engage in anal sex but there is an error in this translation. "sodomites" is the word originating from the long-held lie of the Church regarding Sodom. Sodom and Gomorrah was never destroyed because of homosexuality. It's a lie or a false teaching that has been believed for so long that very few understand the truth. Sodom was destroyed because it wanted to gain eternal life and power by producing eternal beings via having their human women have sex with fallen beings aka fallen angels. Genesis 3,6,18,19, Deuteronomy 33, Job 1, 38, Luke 17, 2 Peter 2, Acts 1, Jude 1, and Revelation 11,12, all give us evidence for this and it points to 1 Enoch which is referenced in the New Testament in Jude and 2 Peter 2. My rule of thumb is that if you're using 16th to 18th century Christians for your doctrine you're most likely wrong on a lot of things. So back to 1 Cor 16 I don't understand how Christians seem to forget the rules of English. It seems that they are so preoccupied by an ideology their brains go to mush. Paul uses nouns, not verbs. When we assume the Bible already says something we force the text to say things it doesn't and we stop asking better questions. Paul begins to say "9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?" This is EVERYONE without Jesus. Romans 3:9-18 We see Jesus in Matthew 5 call every one of us adulterers. (which comes before homosexuals in 1 Cor 6). This is the point of the passage- you either have Jesus or you don't. Nouns: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, sodomites, 10 thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners. Nouns are what we are. If I say I'm white, I'm male, I'm heterosexual, etc, "white", "male", and "heterosexual" are all nouns, just as if I said "I am a sinner". Paul continues: 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. I have been a Christian for over 30 years and the problem for me has always been shoddy biblical study on this topic. Paul isn't making a statement about homosexuality, he's making the point about the blood of Jesus. Also, Paul never says that any of the people at the church at Corinth stopped the behaviors (verbs). This is why your understanding of the gay community along with a lot of other Christians is wrong, since you compared a noun "gay" to verbs "abuse their wives, or cheat on their wives. Paul uses nouns just as heterosexual is a noun so is homosexual, not verbs. The distinguishing factor is the blood of Jesus, not our sinful nature. What's really sad to watch is today's Christians have zero clue what the LORD is doing. The "culture war" is lost, because the church was fighting a battle it created. Christians whine about the deterioration of the "nuclear family" and made Jesus a religion by focusing on morality instead of the real issue. For 100+ years the US government on both sides and the FED have destroyed the US dollar. in 1914 the US dollar was $1 today it's worth 3.2 cents. The destruction of the nuclear family is a result of 100 years of the destruction of our currencies. Then in 2020 tens of millions of Christians voted for 2 presidential candidates that had satanically inspired agendas. Particularly Trump whose Middle East peace plan was a violation of Leviticus 25:23, 2 Chronicles 6:5-6, Joel 3:1-2. Hasn't anyone noticed since 2020 that the LORD is actively dismantling America? On Jan 28, 2020, the "peace plan" was released. On Jan 29, 2020, the conservative evangelical leaders endorsed said plan. And then on Jan 30, 2020, the WHO declared the virus a "global health emergency" which gave governments untold power to destroy their nations. Daniel 2:20-21 says 20 Daniel answered and said: “Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, For wisdom and might are His. 21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding. Whatever your view of the 2020 election the LORD on purpose removed Trump and gave America Biden. We are to vote but when the election is settled we are to know the LORD has placed whomever in place for His purpose. The West is thoroughly corrupt, bankrupt, and about to collapse. When you look at both parties in Congress both sides see Russia, and China as existential threats even though America has made these nations targets of war for at least a decade or so. Now either the Church has been blind or has turned a blind eye to the evil America has inflicted on the world. Endless wars, Coup de tats, weaponizing the US dollar, etc. This administration seems dedicated to take America to war, and the West will lose. It's sad that so many Christian pastors have not prepared their flock for what is already unfolding. Anyway, I hope Christians start waking up and stop being distracted. These issues are important if you're dealing with them in your immediate life, but to think these things will be of any significance in a year or 2 is not paying attention. Take care.

[@conceptualclarity]

right on

[@sgabig]

& why is it a community? Other sins of the flesh don't organize into communities

[@mbfrommb3699]

@@sgabig Here's something for you to ponder. For decades, as I've been a Christian for over 30 years I have heard Pastors preach against what began as the LGB community. The assumption was that God made everyone straight and that it was simply a choice to act gay. That all gay people had to do was choose to live as God created them to be. Another aspect was that America would suffer God's judgment because they believed that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality. Both of these assumptions are lies and not baked biblically. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 most Christians forget basic grammar. 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [b]homosexuals, nor [c]sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were [d]sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." Paul asks the first question. "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?" This question is about ALL humanity. None of us without the blood of Jesus will inherit the Kingdom of God. And in fact before you get to "homosexual" in this passage you get to "Adulterer" which Jesus told everyone we are Adulterers in God's sight in Matthew 5 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." We are all Adulterers. But what's interesting about 1 Corinthians 6 is that Paul uses nouns, not verbs. Nouns is what we are. Paul says "homosexuals" which is a noun. This is important because if I say "I'm Male" Male is a noun. If I say "I'm heterosexual" Heterosexual is a noun. If I say "I'm white" white is a noun. So Paul uses nouns not verbs which is what we do not who we are. 1st lie exposed. This also creates a major problem for Christians since Paul says this is who we all are We are ALL SINNERS noun not that we all sin. But he continues with the solution But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." Now most Christians always point to the garden; the ideal of marriage as being one man with one woman for life where they never lust after anyone els and have lots of kids. Yet, Christians are hypocrites because not of us meet the ideal of the garden. Again Paul 1 chapter later writes in 1 Cor 7 8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. Is this advice consistent with the ideal of marriage from the garden? No. This is advice for how we are in the fallen world. Christians are famous for saying no sex until marriage and then do it like rabbits after. However, now that we know homosexuals are nouns and not verbs we say you don't get marriage. No sex ever. Not only that, no intimate relationships ever. Imagine that you are in a fallen world made to love someone of the same sex, just as I love and lust after women more than I should. Imagine being told that you'll never love someone. Never have a partner to grow old with, and never raise a family unless you choose to be single. This is why they're a community just like other nouns (women, blacks, Native Americans, etc all nouns). It's also interesting that in 1 Timothy 4:1-5 it says that in the last days Christians will forbid marriage and that it's not a good thing. 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 2 These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead. 3 They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanks by faithful people who know the truth. 4 Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks. 5 For we know it is made acceptable by the word of God and prayer." Now I'm not saying for sure this passage endorse's same-sex marriages but it makes me wonder why Christians first ignore basic grammar and then refuse to discuss the implications of that grammar Paul uses. We also, see that Sodom wasn't destroyed because of homosexuality a simple sunday seromon can easily debunk this but what's interesting about Sodom is that let's say this idea was true. If America is collapsing or being Judged right now (Which I think that it's plain to see) and the reason was because of homosexuality remember Abraham bargained with God that if Sodom and Gomorrah had 10 righteous people (2 families of 4 and a couple) God would not destroy Sodom. If God is judging America now then how few righteous people are there in America then? This is about the failures of the Church and, it's not just small failures but epic failures. Conservative Christianity today is significantly heretical in its doctrines and it's getting worse every day. We see this in 2 Chronicles 7:14. How many Christians have prayed for their nation to return to morality and godliness, and prayed this verse over their nation? 14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. IF MY PEOPLE, WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME (not the government, not the ungodly or lost, not the LGBTQ, or Trans) His people...turn from their WICKED WAYS (not sinful, or error of their ways) THEN I WILL HEAR FROM HEAVEN...AND HEAL THEIR LAND. Has God heard His people and healed the nation? No. In 2020 He divided it down the middle enacting Mark 3: 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. God's judgment has always come when His people defy and disobey Him or attack His people the Jews. This is the epic failure of the conservative Church and they are so blind to see it. They will continue to blame Satan and spiritual warfare, for what GOD is doing to America and the West which is dismantling it before our eyes. They'll continue to call out immorality against drag queens and the LGBTQ++ community while America slaughters every man in Ukraine the total now being around 400,000 dead. Or the evil of weaponizing the dollar against other nations causing starvation and death. And it's not just this administration but everyone for decades regardless of party. Hope this helps. Take care.

[@YissakarScribe]

Get it; we just added your video to our playlist for Conservative Queer Theory

[@adelegower834]

Did he say 65-70 years in the corporate life? That's not possible......

[@andresullivan6473]

I think he meant to say he didnt want to wake up 60 or 70 years and have done nothing for God. But yes it is what he said looks good for 90😂

[@odettehardy8730]

He said he was in corporate life for 20 years.

[@patricksawyer6213]

Ha. Yes. Did not come out the best. I meant to indicate that I didn’t want to get to 65-70 yrs old and feel like I wasted my life in certain respects. Sorry about that. I got ahead of myself in my mind. 😅 Best…

[@marshallalbritton9521]

Alisa, you and your videos are a treasure to the church. But this one, not so much. These guys did nothing to prevent the world’s largest Protestant denomination, the SBC, from adopting a resolution that was complimentary of Critical Race Theory. And then, when the SBC had an opportunity to correct the record the next year they met, these men did nothing to promote that effort. Their pastor, JD Greear, was president of the SBC when these things took place. And Greear appointed the members of the committee that recommended the resolution to the SBC that was complimentary of CRT. At least 3 members of that committee were seminary professors who are the biggest advocates of CRT in the SBC. Sawyer and Shenvi have some good critiques of Critical Theory- now. But they were nowhere to be found when the battle was raging in American evangelicalism and the SBC in the critical years. Plus they give cover for, by saying nothing about, Big Eva leaders who brought on disaster and continue to remain silent.

[@JJo-zx5pg]

Everyone has to start somewhere.

[@conceptualclarity]

thx for excellent comment. unfamiliar with Sawyer.

[@sgabig]

It seems unfair to blame these guys for things that their pastor did - do you have evidence that they specifically advised the SBC on their policies?

[@marshallalbritton9521]

@@sgabig I am not blaming them for what their pastor did. I am saying that the SBC said CRT was a good thing in 2019 (over 4 years ago) and the SBC failed to specifically repudiate CRT in 2021, 2 years later. Shenvi, especially, was in the public discourse criticizing CRT generally but not specifically, and never criticized the SBC’s action. The reason? Because his pastor was leading the platform at both conventions- in 2019 and 2021. So if he’s all worried about CRT, why not point to these examples? My concern is that these guys will say things that are critical of CRT, but will leave exceptions and loopholes open for their pastor’s support of CRT. The real leaders in this issue are the ones who spoke out immediately or soon thereafter, and left no room or loopholes for people they like.

[@redtop52]

I don’t like the preface before ever statement with a qualifying apology or feeble explanation. The people pushing this are not playing by the same rules. I recommend James Lindsey on this subject more back bone

[@davidjarvie9546]

Arrived alive...phew better late than never

[@Yawnyaman]

As a convert from secular socialism, I found this discussion interesting but frustrating. If you want to engage with a deceived culture you have to know why they are deceived and also what people feel as well as think. I'm not sure anyone in this conversation realky understood this. The focus on paedophilia was unhelpful, I haven't met a single critical theorist who does not viscerally reject it (indeed in historical context, it is highly patriarchal). I think there needs to be a more definite moral analysis, not just of what critical theory teaches, but also why the Bible (when the Bible) disagrees with it. The overwhelming majority of early critical theorists were atheistic Jews. That is surely relevant, especially as they faced fascist persecution. But how?

[@cpjds1]

That’s a good perspective…thanks for sharing!

[@trfaison]

It

[@Sooner-im9qf]

NO.

[@granvillesimmons6033]

I think "Social Justice" is a matter of semantics. My understanding is that when Christ calls us to care for the poor, the sick, and the marginalized, THAT is one form of Social Justice. Or the things Christ said about the rich, perhaps? Since The Bible has (as I recall) twenty-some scriptures telling us to welcome the migrant and treat them with love and respect, could that also be considered Social Justice? As I say, I think it depends on what you define Social Justice as, and also how you either read or "re-interpret" what The Gospels say.

[@bodycamallpoliticians]

Sure. Can you first affirm lgbtq actions and lusts as iniquity, characteristic of those given over to the sins of the flesh by God? Rom 1 Simple litmus test Part 2 Are these same characteristics applicable? They are filled with all unrighteousness,fn evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, senseless, untrustworthy, unloving,fn and unmerciful. All have sinned. But I'm referring here to (unsaved/unrepentant) iniquity in particular.

[@granvillesimmons6033]

@@bodycamallpoliticians I'm not addressing any of those issues. The point I'm trying to make is that "Social Justice" means different things to different people. I mean, you DO agree that we are called by Christ to care for The Least of These, and are called to welcome the stranger in our land (migrants), and that we are called to love our neighbor as ourself (and act accordingly). THIS is what I've always understood "Social Justice" to mean. Labeling some of these other things Social Justice is perplexing to me.

[@bodycamallpoliticians]

@@granvillesimmons6033 well you passed the test because progressive Chrisitians wont Social Justice is another term hijacked by the farleft hence your confusion and how quick it brings down a church

[@wnorwood1]

This is what I've been thinking too... that it's mostly semantics and false assumptions about other's motivations for getting involved in social justice.

[@sgabig]

The authors talk about critical theory which is an offshoot of Marxism. They caution that intersectionality leads to a slippery slope where a person might start out just working against racial segregation - but critical theorists want to deconstruct all existing societal norms - & will push to normalize the alphabet agenda & ultimately push to sexualize children

[@darrenplies9034]

I believe the Jewish society of the modern state of Israel has a just right to exist

[@dorvinion]

At least acknowledge that the creation of the modern state of Israel was not a thing of the people living in that area (well over a million of them) gaining independence from a foreign nation and choosing a form of governance more to their liking. It was foreign nations imposing a form of governance that if anything was affirmatively rejected by the people who actually lived there.

[@darrenplies9034]

@@dorvinion Islamic Jihad and Hamas are objectively unjust for the Palestinian societal people

[@bodycamallpoliticians]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@dorvinionSo when do you count back to? The 7th Century was a barbaric purge of the entire Hellenic/Roman culture (converted/enslave) population in the area now refered to as Palestine. Farthest back? Ismael was the rejected son of Hagar sent out to the deserts, and its blasphemy to claim ismael's wisdom and authority had anything to do with Issac's saceifice or Abrahams faith. Twisted Scripture

[@darrenplies9034]

Disability injustice advocate

[@marshallalbritton9521]

The real evangelical leaders that led in the battle were men like Voddie Baucham (who has been talking about Critical Theory since 2008), Tom Ascol, John MacArthur, and a host of others. (BTW, ask these men if they signed the Statement on Social Justice that was crafted by concerned evangelicals many years ago). So this book is way late. And I suspect it will give cover to evangelical leaders who failed in the past, including their own pastor. Again, these guys have some good things to say, but they are not reliable leaders on this issue.

[@conceptualclarity]

good comment but Greear didn't just fail, he's been one of the 3 most destructive leaders in 21st century US evangelicalism, along with Keller and Moore

[@sgabig]

It's nice to have a vanguard on the parapets but also to have back up support troops. It seems that neither of these authors are trained theologians or pastors & were trained in different disciplines but started noticing that concepts they came across in their secular work were infiltrating into the church. They also said this book is heavily footnoted so it can be used as reference material

[@davidwireback8621]

You always want to talk about discernment but yet you downplay the gift of discernment and the gifts of the spirit altogether. You say human logic gets away. Yet at the same time that's what you rely on human logic and wisdom to preach the gospel. Paul tells His gospel was given to him by revelation From Jesus Christ. There's not to Say that Jesus is giving more revelation. The Bible is now closed. But he does teach that we're not to rely on human reasoning debates and wisdom or eloquent speech to preach the gospel but we are to do so in the power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit. you guys are just pitting your human reasoning and understanding about the Scriptures Against another group. Until you start doing this you're wasting everybody's time

[@conceptualclarity]

She can do better in terms of guests than Neil Shenvi who has too much of a fondness for punching right against Christian brethren and who belongs to the church of "gay rights is godliness" JD Greear, one of the worst evangelical leaders of this century.

[@cat-bg3rv]

So is Neil in any way involved with The Gospel Coalition? If I am understanding your comment.

[@conceptualclarity]

@@cat-bg3rv I'm sure he has written for them but I don't believe he is on staff with them or that he is one of their mainstay writers.

[@martarico186]

Difficult to follow pat and stick to the this podcast the first 8 minutes with much redundant information. I

[@pierreferguson1300]

Hypocrites, Neil Shenvi needs to first take the log out of his own eye w/r to the cast system in the Indian community, and then he will see clearly to take the speck out of the eye of a black person w/r to CRT!

[@sgabig]

The caste system in India is based on the Hindu religion & Shenvi said he converted to Christianity

[@tendays456]

This seemed like fear mongering. Comparing 2 consenting adults making a decision to be in a relationship to an adult being with a child is a little too far. Christian men used to date young girls and we have moved to stopping doing that. The idea that not being homophobic will some how lead to us letting people dating children is wow.

[@sgabig]

The Bible opposes sins of the flesh. The authors argument is that critical theory wants to destroy all societal norms & taboos

[@westyso.cal.8842]

Ugh! The ongoing discussion between egalitarianism and complementarianism has become so hot these days. Unfortunately, very few are willing to discuss Biblical Patriarchy except within the Reformed camp. Also, it would be wise to stop using the language of the left by referring to the term “Gay Community.” That sort of language fuels identify politics.