Overwatch 2 is 5v5?! We have a lot of questions... - Plat Chat Ep. 88

[@matthayes976]

kurt's laughter in the background increases serotonin levels in my brain

[@hisokamorow1816]

where? I can't see it D:

[@bartsodermans2497]

@@hisokamorow1816 around 4:40 during the ad-read, when the 🥚 forgot his lines.

[@coreyharding6421]

I look forward to it every episode

[@hisokamorow1816]

@@bartsodermans2497 ngl i read lightsaber, not laughter. I love the laughs as well :D

[@zak0o110]

Every time Kurt laughs an angel gains it’s wings

[@olav1182]

5v5 was a decision from the script writers to make Marvel MVP next season.

[@lochsvids]

Marv 1*

[@GarageSeller]

OH MY GOD THE PROPHET HAS COME

[@hisokamorow1816]

Watch them play gesture anyway

[@StarBrlight]

@@lochsvids they probably would

[@carlfletcherjunior9076]

@@lochsvids marve1

[@fidelaargueta]

When are we getting Plat Chat: Sports where Johnny gives his weird football takes for 3 hours

[@bengriffith2727]

The 6th player on each team in OW2 will be T-Mobile

[@sebastiankongsted917]

LUL

[@idolhell1500]

The robots in push just pushing a huge tmobile logo

[@Maple_774]

2:34:57 for the WhoRU first reactions, Matt's face when he sees it is perfect lol

[@tersiashyuuga14]

Massive take for bastion: we a get story of bastion and torb and echo, and them brainstorming and updating him, and his transformation gets another amazing cinematic. His story has incredible potential for lore!

[@mrchun4018]

14:04 its as if someone held up a sign telling Sideshow and Avast to take a drink of something lmao

[@PleochroicSpodumene]

what is it about human nature that says. NOW IS THE TIME TO DO THE THING.

[@marozid1]

Moon is the Christopher Nolan of OWL. He needs his Tom Hardy and Cillian Murphy everywhere he goes.

[@soloqoph5805]

I’m not sure how much weight this point holds but especially as a tank player, I’m terrified of one tank being overwhelmingly meta and I get flammed every game for not playing that one tank out of like 10 or so probably after they add in the new ow2 characters. The owl community is not often the nicest place and I can already see all the frustration of a loss being dumped onto me

[@Sh4kyyy]

Well yes, maybe in the beginning while everyone is still hooked on MTD copium. However, if the scoreboard actually shows valuable information about player performance and when people get an understanding of the ebb and flow of tank/brawler gameplay then it will probably balance out

[@Bingomandingo]

I can't really see any tank becoming the go-to choice for every map except for Rein but even he could be a bad pick in certain situations/maps. The meta will literally be flex playing and countering whoever is the best player. I honestly hope they set it up where tanks don't do heavy damage but have much higher sustainability so there could be less pressure and less blame could land on them. People are worried about losing as a tank and getting flamed but the thing is this will actually give much more importance to DPS helping you out instead of being the douches that can go a game getting carried while flaming others. Who gets flamed the least amount right now? DPS. You will usually hear "where are the heals?!?!" and "why are the tanks not pushing and protecting me?!?!" I think if anything it will make it more apparent when they're bad when they're not getting picks and frankly that alone will bring balance. You're the big daddy now as the tank who can enable a team so the scumbags have to be more considerate of flaming their lone tank early on and will if anything bring more appreciation to you if you at least tried. I'm kinda excited at the possibility of a new tank whose role is being a gigantic ass support who can quickly move to protect players. Meanwhile, there may end up being more supports with more damage capability and then the game becomes picking whoever you are good at and not getting forced to pick the same damn players over and over because of META. Plus it'll be nice to know you're more capable of hard carrying when your team is not pulling their weight at all or in comms

[@ChrisProfrock]

That already happens though, most games I see if you Ball or double off tank people say you are throwing. ITs not a new issue

[@soloqoph5805]

@@ChrisProfrock yes, except in overwatch 1 there are two tanks to take the blame. When there is only one tank there is a lot more potential for that tank to really control the game, but also when your team gets full held on Numbani first, there’s no second tank to flame. So if you weren’t directly popping in the killfeed, that one tank is going to be a vulnerable target for trash talk

[@feuerteufel7813]

@@soloqoph5805 That is exactly my fear. The one Solo tank will from one day to the other hold all accountabillity, and will get a target on his back. The devs know, that the playerbase can be extremly toxic and harrassing. Funneling all that negativity towards one player by the default because of his position is just a terrible dumb or naive idea.

[@4inchesfofury]

Best line of the day Sideshow: "I don't think score boards are going to reduce toxicity, it's just going to point it in the right direction. " haha great🤣

[@JordanRiehm]

14:02 Matt: "We all love the game the way it is now" Sideshow and Avast instantly reach for water lol

[@omega.ak1]

One of my biggest concerns is that tanks are gonna get flamed like no tomorrow. With there only being one it makes for an easy scapegoat. Then those people will stop playing tank and the people that say "but shorter queue times tho" are gonna be in queue for a week.

[@spike315]

This is my biggest fear. I think the changes to the game will shake out over time for the better, but fuck is it gonna feel bad to get MTDed or even just to lose and get blamed. It's gonna be rough

[@bramancronin8013]

But the game will have more pick potential so wouldn't that be a dps diff? I am a plat tank player btw (Rein, Orisa, Zar, Dva). I am personally super excited. I wont have to worry about passive main tanks or unsupportive off tanks in my games. If I lose its on me or my other 4 teammates, not my tank duo. I think people need to view these changes optimistically because they are inevitable and frankly Blizzard wouldn't put them in if it didn't make the game better in the long run.

[@bantay21]

If they put a scoreboard where it shows stats eg like dmg done, healing done, etc might reduce that

[@cesarluque2723]

@@bramancronin8013i agree with what you are saying 5v5 its gonna rely on DPS more i believe, but as a tank why would you want that and if you see the stream you can see that the rein and the Winston do nothing too meaningful just cartsitting, they adding these cool abilities but the tanks couldn't really get in any position to do anything and be agressive cause they would just get melted. As a tank why would I want that.

[@matejkaukal3231]

Honestly as a tank player in plat/diamond, I feel like I rarely get flamed. I've had games where I just fed relentlessly and DPS still got blamed over me.

[@silhouettegundam]

We're not going to know if 5v5 will better or worse for the game overall, but it will mean that the OW2 will play almost nothing like OW1. Just about every hero will have to be adjusted, and the overall gameplay will see a paradigm shift to accommodate it. This could be a great thing, but it sure sucks if you actually liked how OW1 played since, unless they change their mind, there will be no OW1 to play. To me, that's what makes this decision really shitty.

[@TheSpeediestRogue]

I've thought about this a lot. But I guess this argument could be like role lock when it was introduced. Some people swore by it ruining the game. But the quality definitely improved. Having 6 of any hero wasn't really the core game it was meant to be. So I think it is better overall to phase out the current system for the newer one.

[@FernBunbury]

@@TheSpeediestRogue While I don’t necessarily think that 5v5 will be bad, I remember role lock having a much more positive reception than 5v5. Most people liked that changed when it was announced.

[@nex5691]

tbh the cod players and other players who play 5v5 games will be like this when they see ow2 they will be like whats wrong with 5v5 5v5 is good changes are good however ow pros and ow players are more like changes are always shit omg to make a good game you always need changes to make a game great

[@HAMISHMCC300]

avast rlly good irl in the podcast good vibes boys

[@datman879]

I really agree with reinforces point that specialist tanks like Hammond are gonna be bad. If their bad their gonna have to change the character and that’s just removing an entire playstyle and unique character.

[@raf4933]

nah I disagree with the hammond point. we literally saw a meta when it was 1-3-2 with 3 dps and a hammond as disruption. I honestly think this comp in 5v5 could be quite oppresive.

[@scottwyman9888]

Bro Hammond is gonna be the only tank you can play that doesn't get pooped on

[@matejkaukal3231]

Hammond was basically concieved as the one tank that can solo tank, what even was that take. If anything, hammond will probably be the only tank who won't need any adjustments, maybe just revert some nerfs.

[@twigus2255]

I think that the main issue with 5 vs 5 is that Tanks are now easy to hard counter and some of them will essentially become glorified punching bags for highly mobile DPS or snipers that they just can't reach. For example, in Reinhardt rush the Rein gets bubbles from the Zarya that prevent him from being CC'd or Anti-grenaded. Once you take his off-tank partner away, he is way more susceptible to things like anti-grenade which means that he has to play safer, and he can't assert himself and take map control in any meaningful way because he's not a threat. Reinhardt will literally become walking rectangle man because he is not getting utility from his off-tank in order to actually close the opponent down without instantly dying.

[@floofflez1134]

14:03 I love how Avast and Josh synchronously reached for their drinks

[@bartjobsis6094]

The biggest problem i see with 5vs5 is that i feel like at a lower level you’re just not doing anything but at higher levels it’s ONLY about tanks and if you have a bad tank it’s a instant loss

[@Mrdeadneck]

Idk if a dps picks someone off at the begging inv of the fight it’s a instant win I think good dps play will more than make up for bad tank play

[@vegetamamado7]

It is already like that on 6v6 if your rein is just feeding is an instant loss

[@bramancronin8013]

@@Mrdeadneck AGREE. people tend to forget that while you lose a tank, so does the enemy, making picks and stuff much easier. I dont think it will change the game all that much aside from making it easier to read and reducing que times. YOU CAN STILL HAVE TANK DIFF, SUPPORT DIFF, AND DPS DIFF. If an individual is fragging they will win easier (no more 45-3 kd losses or ties)

[@meatscraps]

Yeah, if your Tank sucks, you lose. Don't pass go, don't get $200.

[@dassvidania1969]

To be fair, can you win if, lets say, you play Lucio/Zen? If your dps is getting destroyed? Sure tanks are more important, but its not like the other role is meanigless

[@Orktosqt]

I think my biggest issue with 5v5 is that it's great risk. people that didn't like game may not return, but game now has a chance to lose core audience. How Tank experience gonna be? will queue time for dps go down if Tank players will just leave because it's not fun anymore? With every dps hero having increased movement speed, wouldn't it be just too easy to kite tanks? who cares if Tanks more suvivable if you can ignore. Everyone i know stopped playing game because there no new content since year one, all events are the same with very little changes and new heroes and maps every now and then not enough, and new players don't wanna join becuase game still cost money. People not leaving because it's hard, people leaving becuase there nothing to do. Imagine if League of legends would remove items because it's too difficult for new players to figure out.

[@davitron86]

The whole thing about 5v5 bringing back players who left doesn't track for me. Metas never mattered for most of the player base. The thing that made people stop playing was the lack of major content for like 4 years. We haven't had a new tank introduced in two years. If you ignore your game outside of balance patches, the only people who stick with it are going to be your core.

[@miles2309]

The biggest reason why I stopped playing was I felt like my impact didn't matter and comp was such rng. Less players would really help my experience and i'd try it again.

[@Niko257x]

They say "Oh we shouldn't think about Overwatch in our own little bubble" Yet continue to complain about how GOATS was meta for over a year despite it not being very good in ranked. Much less below diamond.

[@littlecurrybread]

My main worry is will blizzard adopt the current games as service model? Free to play? League has been constantly evolving every year and didn’t need to launch a sequel. Should we expect an Overwatch 3 after years of no content after Overwatch 2? I’m more worried about that development roadmap as I still don’t have a sense of that.

[@gamechanger-455]

I think as a tank player my "largest concern or cause for anxiety" is the loss of that tank duo play that has made the role very fun to play. However 5v5 obviously opens up new avenues, but it seemingly feels like you're taking a key theme of the "team play in overwatch" away to cover up the poor philosophy for keeping players.

[@jdv637]

We love Matt. Do a play chat with all 7 usual guests Mr. X, Sideshow, Bren, Reinforce, Avast, Jaws, and Custa

[@DEFUification]

I hope they stroke Boston’s ego a bit, it’s well deserved and play chat is usually not advocates for the team usually

[@yedigemagavin1694]

Tbf, Boston doesn’t have the reputation to be talked about positively. But At least this year their image improved a lot.

[@alessiofodera2474]

@@yedigemagavin1694 I'd agree with you if we were still in season 3 but the org has been steadily improving their rep so its deserved at this point

[@Fiachra1047]

I feel like blizzard is betraying the people who stuck with the game through everything and are loyal to the game. I mean what would u rather someone who left the game or someone who stuck with it and actually enjoy it for what it is

[@benjibob7763]

Yes but we have stuck around so they almost know most of us will buy OW2 almost whatever the core gameplay, so they want to entice the new players for that 💸

[@blitz8425]

5v5 is going to be horrible for the health of the game. It might bring more people in, but "more" isn't better. A better fix, is just expand the tank roster. Also its a TEAM shooter. Stop trying to make individuals the focus.

[@ConnorDuzMinecraft]

How does expanding the tank roster fix the problems that led the developers to change OW to 5v5? Also, OW will still be a team shooter. It'll just be a bit more individualistic, but it will still be far more team-based than many other shooters. Just because it's moving back in the shooter direction a little doesn't mean it will lose its identity.

[@amadhatter3280]

I agree its not about just attracting new players its about keeping them playing, with 5v5 it feels like Call of Duty: Overwatch Edition well why play Overwatch when Call of Duty does it better? The best fix would be to re-work tanks to make them less about shields and more about being a "fat dps", e.g. remove Orisa shield but make her feeling like the Terminator when she fights plus she'll have Hog or Sigman there to help her so the shield won't be missed.

[@blitz8425]

@@ConnorDuzMinecraft 1. It alleviates que times. More tanks mean more people are likely to want to play the tank role. 2. They can design tanks with the intention of appealing to dps players. The only thing it doesn't fix is the visual clutter, but frankly I just don't agree that that is as big a problem as people make it out to be. And yes it does. I watched the gameplay. Its a bunch of 1v1s with 5 players per team, instead of a structured team fight based around a main tank and a supporting off tank. Its a bad change, that ignores what makes overwatch unique.

[@ConnorDuzMinecraft]

@@blitz8425 Adding tanks has not improved queue times. Maybe for the first week or so after release, but after that people go back to just playing DPS. Also, adding tanks with the intention of appealing to DPS players is not what everyone wants. I don't know many tank players that enjoy having a Roadhog on their team (who is basically a fat DPS). And even if I agreed with you on this, changing the game to 5v5 allows the devs to make the tanks more appealing to DPS players by removing the need for tanks to just hold shields all the time. The gameplay was from developers, many of whom are in average ranks. I am a plat player, and my games aren't exactly structured, either. If OW2 came out now and people had time to practice and learn the game, it would become much more structured (specifically at high ranks/pro play). Certainly not as structured as OW1, but it wouldn't be a series of 1v1s. OW1 on release wasn't exactly that structured, either. Also, there are other issues that led to the decision to add 5v5 besides what is already mentioned. E.g. visual clutter, the chaos of having 11 people to track, etc.

[@blitz8425]

@@ConnorDuzMinecraft because they keep adding DPS heroes as well. The dps roster is twice the size of the other 2, and the only hero they announced for overwatch 2 is sojourn. And then they wonder why so many people que dps. What everyone wants? Half the player base doesn't want 5v5 at best. But in the specific instance of adding tanks that appeal to dos players, we can't do that because it's not what everyone wants? The fact is I know blizzard can make decisions that passively impact the game that not everyone likes right away. Role lock, and 2-2-2 specifically. Tanks DON'T need to hold shields all the time. In fact there is only one barrier tank that has an ability that fits that description. The wonderful thing about the tank role is you can have those barrier tanks, and the off tanks and they work well together. Oh, so then we agree internally testing this with at best a bunch of average players isn't a good way to get a read on the types of metas that will emerge? I'm a mid racing player as well, and the team fights are pretty structured. Built around winning engagements with your team and relying on eachother. Blizzard is admitting that they want LESS of that. That is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard them say. Without a main tank, the team fights WILL completely break down. Even the high tier players who have tried out the workshop mode, watching their videos, that's exactly what happens. I've addressed this last point elsewhere, the only people who have difficulty following what is going on in overwatch matches are people who do not play overwatch. Frankly, i don't really give a shit that they can't follow it. Blizzard should have better introductory modes for new players than one tutorial that most people haven't played, and it's pretty much useless anyway. Again, there are better solutions to everything this supposedly addresses than fundamentally changing, and imo ruining the overwatch experience. Its creatively lazy, and mechanically hard to implement.

[@celticsfan1554]

Tell avast to stop looking at sideshow when he talks and leaving the mic

[@NaruBrilu]

Aw my god that was so annoying. I thought my headphones were popping out because he kept going quiet and then back to normal and i was like wtf is happening. Then i looked at the video and then was like ohh... thats why

[@matejkaukal3231]

I mean wouldn't you, if you were sitting next to Sideshow 😳

[@LasertechStudios3142]

I am a main tank player who was forced to off-role on offtank to stay on a team I liked and after leaving due to burnout I only could get back into the game when duoing with my brother on tanks. I’m actually so happy that whether my off-tank is throwing or not is no longer going to decide my experience in OW2.

[@alinazar6988]

I mean you can't just go 5v5 and expect positive reactions without making changes to the heroes. Right now all I'm thinking is I'm gonna play sombra and destroy the enemy tank

[@DontSigh]

In regards to 5v5, I feel like Matt has already decided what the right answer is and how everything's going to go, and that's why I'm not really interested in what he has to say about it

[@shadowflame6245]

@Iron Gamer Bren and Reinforce were among the staunchest critics of hero pools last year, or did you forget? They are people with their own opinions, of course influenced by their unique situation as is yours. You have every right to be hesitant about 5v5 (I am too), but to make baseless claims about people's motivations is disingenuous and doesn't help anybody.

[@benjibob7763]

@@shadowflame6245 where did he mention bren or reinforce

[@trashcandy.]

The same could easily be said about critics. The news is fresh enough (and we know little enough) for everyone to still be committed to their gut reactions. The ten minute argument Reinforce and Avast had with Sideshow was proof enough of that.

[@shadowflame6245]

@@benjibob7763 I thought it was pretty clear that my point was the Plat Chat guys (and OWL/OWC talent as a whole) are not being forced to play up every decision made by Blizzard based on the fact that many of them lambasted hero pools last year. I do agree that Matt is a bit too optimistic for me, but that's his right as an individual, regardless of his affiliation with Blizzard. Critics of 5v5 are just as convinced of their view as Matt is: both reactions are too extreme based on too little imo.

[@paulvenn4447]

Hero Pools upset the meta this last weekend because of the lack of time to metacraft, May Melee looked cleaner because they had months to prep the same meta.

[@mattb6528]

I will give it a chance but the game *I* want to play is going away. This is a fundamental gameplay change that makes it a very different game. It looks really unfun as a tank, a support, or even a dps. Yeah, the genji or doomfist that gets a 5k every fight is having a great time, but no one else is. If what I saw is any indication, I'm going from a flex queue person (aka tank/support) to a pure dps, if I play at all. With this change, the game goes from a unique team shooter, to a slightly different tdm. There's a ton of those, and I'm not sure why you expect people to stick around for this one.

[@Abby_Affchen]

I agree it seems it'll be tdm which is a dying genre in fps and when a new one comes out it dies very quickly

[@matthewmccloskey515]

Make OW 4v4. You only have to worry about 3 teammates that way, and nobody will have to wait for a game

[@matthewmccloskey515]

@Iron Gamer 3v3 was my favorite in WoW. I think at its best, 6v6 is better. But it's a story of higher highs and lower lows. Overwatch has always been a game that requires 6 people to win and only takes 1 person to lose. Solo Q-ing in silver with 5 random people who rarely use microphones can be such a nightmare, and the fact that 80% of the player base would sooner uninstall than play Flex... the average experience doesn't even resemble the intended experience that we get to watch in the OWL. Going from 6v6 down makes the game worse for the high end, but better for the low end.

[@WumboPeaches]

my favorite part of every episode is kirk dying laughing in the background

[@Nicki1202]

his name‘s kurt

[@zephyrod7307]

46:28 The reason why I play OW but not Valorant is because OW has a somewhat brawly playstyle. I can play Overwatch without feeling like I’m in a shooter where I constantly have to peak around corners. I hope it doesn’t become too much of a shooter 50:35 Sadly I think that’s correct

[@andrewmorales2986]

Thousand year Plat Chat is the best plat chat. Love the long format.

[@TaxidermyRatOWL]

The only problem with catering a game towards the casual audience they will just leave in the next 6 months to the next shiny SnoreZone or Fortnite that gets released.

[@catmoonkenobi]

But it's not like the remaining audience consists of sustainable numbers wither. Those games you mention dwarf OW on twitch - so obviously there's a way to attract and maintain that casual audience (they're newer, but Fortnite is still 4 years old with 100k viewers currently). OW has notoriously been supported to cater to the higher echelon of play for years now - most of the work went into balance changes for competitive play as opposed to event content for example. Blizzard either shake things up to hopefully reconnect with audience members they've lost to increase livelihood of the game, or they'll be forced to abandon it - because at some point the $50 (or whatever) you spent 5 years ago can't compensate the salary of the developers needed to maintain it.

[@matthewbowen4955]

Overwatch has always been unique because of its team play focus like Reinforce mentioned. No other game is like it, and I fear moving to 5v5 will change it to be less team based and more individual play making. I don’t play overwatch for the individual playmaking, I play it for that teamwork (I should mention I play Main Tank for my college). If I wanted to play a individualistic game I would play literally any other FPS. I hate the idea of 5v5 from ruining the tank synergy, as well as the unfairness that will be placed on that 1 tank. You will now have to know every tank hero or else you are throwing (at least at higher levels and organized team play) because you don’t have another tank that can play your less comfortable hero. Also Blizzard has never been successful at balancing their game until most recently and the only reason they have been successful is because there hasn’t been a new hero added to the game in over a year to alter balance. Blizzard is going to continue messing up balance and when they make a bad meta we may see tanks only playing 1-3 heroes within a meta and some metas may make the tank player want to punch their monitor. I personally will be leaving the game (as well as my college team if OW2 comes out within my time there) if it moves to 5v5, my off tank teammate has also said the same. I just don’t want to play overwatch as the only tank and face the same toxicity I used to get from before role lock. 2-2-2 made me not hate every second on the game because teammates became much more nice. I’m saddened that my 5 years of OW will be coming to an end when OW2 comes out but I cannot support this decision, it is purely a cop out for not knowing how to balance their game.

[@BADASSATRONLIVESHERE]

I think having Matt on the show is super important. He has much more power in the scene to actually make things happen. Having him listen to the pepega gallery and be able to give and receive feedback is super useful and informative

[@IndianaJakeisanIdiot]

The reason why we are in such a balanced meta is because there hasn't been a hero added in 1.5 years and they've had all that time to balance around that. It is a non-argument, and is based on the notion that we will never get a new hero again. I think 5v5 will give developers an easier time to balance the game in a timely manner.

[@Ash-fh3mh]

TL DR: I don't think 5v5 can keep players as long as 6v6 did (5 years). If you could only have one tank in your comp would you want a tank with a shield or a tank without one? What will the OW2 tank player mindset be? I think tank's main goal is still to gain/control space. What's the best ult option to swing a fight for the team? Could go with an cc ult like earthshatter, grav, flux. Could go with zone denial like whole hog, mine field, mecha bomb. ...I don't know this whole 5v5 thing seems like a huge risky gamble to me. Overwatch 2 will need to be able to sustain itself at least as long as the first game without the "new" factor. Most characters and game types are already known. Currently, I don't see how the new game will match/grow past it's predecessor after 2 years.

[@XIIIVENTOLAIIIX]

The jjangu/dreamer rotation makes sense to me considering junkbuck comes from shock with two maintanks.

[@KillJedicTV]

Imagine if Blizzard didn’t give up on Overwatch... we wouldn’t need Overwatch 2

[@3therspark63]

so true statement... for real man... well said

[@masterzjg]

Bren worthy opening to the ad

[@jacobfrantz5970]

Avast's point that you can have a tank contesting the point and high ground is EXACTLY the problem and why they're getting rid of the offtank. You have two completely separate long term fights happening and it becomes extremely difficult to follow what is going on. With one tank, you choose for your tank to go somewhere and the rest of the team has to fight around that. If the tanks from the two teams go opposite directions its tank vs dps on both sides and one side will win quickly in something that explosive. If the tanks go the same way, its tanks fighting each other and the dps trying to gain advantages around that longer fight.

[@ninjudd808]

Kurts laughter in the background is classic 😆 😂 4 people = six cups?

[@diegofernandez7989]

Im not buying into 5v5, i love the moba elements of overwatch right now. Stuns, antinades, emps all of them make the essence of the game and also adds complexity to the game that you can’t find in other games, especially in consoles where mobas pretty much don’t exist. Making it a shooter in essence makes me wonder if they are going to simplify the game for it to be more attractive to new audiences and alienate the current players, generating a breach between ow1 players and ow2 players

[@gummostump4217]

I agree. I understand that the move away from moba and towards shooter is deliberate, but i think Overwatch should double down on it's niche rather than move to compete in the already overpopulated, competitive matketplace of "tac shooter with a twist".

[@Seiku]

I've played since the beginning and still hate nade lol

[@diegofernandez7989]

@@gummostump4217 that’s activision applying their call of duty model to all their games right there

[@diegofernandez7989]

@@Seiku it’s a punishing ability, if you don’t hate it it’s because the ana on the other team sucks. But isn’t that the idea? For dvas to eat those nades and the team to position and react accordingly. That’s what i like about overwatch

[@Memoreno94]

make Avast permanent plz!

[@judeau5320]

Just replace one of Sigma's abilities with the zero-gravity effect from his ult so he can just freely move to high ground on cooldown.

[@MordreadRN75]

I main healing mostly and I'm really sad that I will die a LOT more now since DPS will have free reign

[@Nessa-939]

You don't know that. The devs aren't gonna just make a role miserable to play, you're gonna have to wait for more details before you say something like that

[@Ninekillaa]

@@Ash-jm3pd i think its more than likely out next year

[@WTFUrNotJLo]

With fewer tanks in play, you may have to use maps and cover to your advantage to tank for you. Just a guess 🤪

[@Nessa-939]

@@Ash-jm3pd How about we don't make speculations with very little evidence and take them as facts? We don't know how the game is going to play, but seeing any change and going "this will destroy the game" is just silly. Have a little more trust in the devs not to ruin their own game lol Also, since goats they have had a change in philosophy to make more frequent balance changes and to directly target the meta. So no, if these changes turn out to make support play a chore they're not just gonna leave it like that for a year

[@athena3177]

At lower elo's team comps, strats, counter picks, etc... don't exist anyway. One tricks wont stop one tricking just because its less viable, people aren't going to start playing smarter because theres 5 heroes per team. The only place any of this will matter is masters+, people in diamond and below just play team death match already

[@mikesgamerecke]

For the bastion redesign i wish they would take inspiration from the Chaingun from Doom 2016/Eternal. Would be great if they could get the mobility/functionality into OW2

[@yakisawesome1496]

Legit one year ago I watched Jake play mercy on stream and he was legitimately worse than masters players. He's gotten much better since then, but I'm not sure if that's a good starting point for an OWL main support.

[@CrazeeAdam]

oh no, I feel good with Jake on Brig, he's played Brig at a pretty good level. I don't think it's disrespectful to put him in on Brig. Not to mention he can help calm his guys down in game. And his strats in game are probably part of the reason why they often win when he's in (he has a very positive win record being in)

[@Nessmess001]

I love playing off tank because I love playing dva and zarya. I love the playstyle of peeling for the team + supporting your tank. For me, I fear turning dva and zarya into main tanks will alter their playstyle so much, they won't feel the same at all 😓 or that they won't be any good as main tank and I won't be able to play them without making my team lose

[@kaladinstormblessed9626]

The copium and hopium in this ep is some next level shit.

[@GoyfAscetic]

Reinforce: "Putting your assistant coach on Mercy does no Justice to this roster" Me: When have Outlaws ever cared about Justice?

[@scabby.knees99]

Maybe the WhoRU signing is so Shanghai can sub out Fleta in situations where they would benefit from a more aggressive DPS style, like the 2020 Summer Showdown when Genji was overtuned

[@ChrisProfrock]

Your team not picking a "busted" Tank right now is an issue. I have seen countless games where if you dont go a tank that people want you to play they say you are throwing. Thats not a new issue thats going to crop up with OW2.

[@lebowski7717]

Who’s the one person who isn’t on blizzards pay role? I’ll let you guess

[@austinfigueroa4851]

I’ve had the same tank duo partner for the last 3 years and even though I do main DPS, I’m gonna miss that synergy the most

[@smith6907]

Sideshows chemo vs surgery analogy is PERFECT and egghead

[@FaIIenSkater91]

It’s not that people didn’t expect it to change, it’s that no one wants that change

[@markbowser3978]

On console, the Bastion meta wasn't patched for at least a week. I think it was more. It was pretty frustrating. I felt like my wins and losses hinged solely on if our bastion player knew to stay in sentry form when in danger rather than trying to flee.

[@thechknnuggetgod1709]

I think 5v5 is gonna be bad, the worst part is like it or not it’s gonna completely change OW1 so we can never go back to the game we’ve been playing for 5 years, to cater the the players who are gonna quit ow2 again less then a week in.

[@blaynegreiner9365]

"I don't think our small community represents the bigger picture." This is exactly it for me. People that are still playing forget that Overwatch has a whole lot of players to entice back to the game, as well as getting new players into the game. I know people will try to blame loss of players on lack of content, but that is really only a small part of the equation. Many people have stopped playing for many different reasons and the Devs need to make sure they are hitting as many people as possible. Basically making the game as healthy and consumable as possible, for as many people as possible or else they won't get resources to make the new content that will allow for player retention. It all boils down to this: What is healthiest and best for the game and the community in its *entirety*? Not just a small, vocal section of an already diminished community. Most criticisms I have seen levied at 5v5 are either currently already a problem, or are swift, knee-jerk reactions that can actually be explained if you put emotions on hold to think about it rationally.

[@cavajason]

I don't see tanks being balanced in a way they can both feel impactful and get value while still being survivable, they talked about tanks being more aggro but from everything we saw the second rein tries to go in he just gets blown up, with only one tank they would have to either be so op they are oppressive and have them actually be fun, or they don't feel oppresive and they aren't fun to play, nobody wins

[@ryanmichael3125]

What I feel the competitive community likes is the crazy dynamics between the teams, it seems to be dumbed down with 5v5. I don’t know if it’ll be playable at the top unless the tanks can lift heavy.

[@highmarx4205]

A lot of the hypotheticals Avast and Reinforce gave can be solved through basic hero balance and hero/map design. Scared people won't ever play Rein because Winston is more mobile? Easy, just design certain maps that are very flat and narrow so mobility is less useful, and if all else fails, give Rein more health, damage, and firestrikes. Don't want tanks to feel isolated in team fights? Design DPS and Support heroes who coordinate more with tanks. Turn Symmetra's evil co-worker Sanjay into a more Support version of Zarya. Make Maximilian a DPS with a defense matrix-like ability. Just release more heroes who offer team utility other than stuns, shields, and heals. You can get more creative with hero design when the game is easier to balance. And the game is easier to balance when there are only n^4 combinations to account for at any given time as opposed to n^5.

[@datboyandrei]

i hope they pls test it with pros at some point

[@ArcasCorricol]

i'm excited for the pve and story things because if i hate what pvp is or what it will become then i will still be able to play the game without feeling a hatred for the virtual representation of humanity around me

[@enocloke24]

Dragons just became my pick to win it all. Whoru is unreal

[@bbreakgaming1653]

Johnny’s Soccer analogy is spot on. Someone give this man a raise.

[@mechkota]

it is stupid

[@type06521]

Personally I really don’t think 5v5 was necessary in terms of bringing old players back. Rn OW is a 5 year old game behind a $60 paywall which automatically limits the amount of new players with most trending games going free to play. Most people left the game because of MOBA and shield elements but both of those aspects have been merged heavily. Once OW2 comes out people who played OW at all our going to come back at least to give it a try and that’s not including the new generation of players that have come up within the last 5 years. Basically imo the games player base would have skyrocketed off launch no matter what, and if they really are intent on the 5v5 system the least they could do is add a 6v6 comp mode like open queue or smth for the older players who enjoyed that.

[@5Munny]

I feel like, because healers are focusing heals on 1 tank, the moment you get a pick on a dps, your tank becomes immortal which would make the less mobile tanks more viable as they do a better job of preventing those picks

[@tymunster]

My least favorite part of overwatch 2 is that it feels like pandering to a group whi dropped the game once it found its footing, rather than being better for the current, loyal playerbase. I feel punished as a fan of overwatch throughout its existence, and its almost insulting to feel like I'm being told "our unique game is too unique, we have to make it more similar to every other FPS in the world so people will play it. Not enough revenue yet." Like wow, thanks, the most influential game in the last 5 years of my life (1/4th the time I've been alive) isnt good enough to the people who play clicky clicky games.

[@blurse1652]

This exactly. This move is good for business and the casual fanbase, but bad for the hardcore players and terrible for the unique and beautiful essence of the game.

[@spike315]

Yeah but you're gonna play anyway, and the game needs more than the current fanbase to succeed

[@tymunster]

@@spike315 theres over 100x as many people in Overwatch than games seeing great success, like TF2 and Gunfire Reborn. Its already succeeding, and one of the biggest games in the world. I definitely agree my argument is flawed in the 1st comment, but that is the biggest thing I agree with. The playerbase is already huge.

[@ratchetst3v38]

@@blurse1652 My issue is the opposite like Avast said, they're amputating the leg instead of trying to save it. QP, low SR games, and even gm and high SR have so many people playing COD in Overwatch, or a MOBA in Overwatch; Overwatch has elements of both, but it is a completely different game. Blizzard has done NOTHING to punish players that refuse to play a TEAM BASED GAME and learn their roles, or at least incentivize team play like "use this tank to push in and make space" or "use Bap/Ana/Moira to try keeping your Rein alive instead of running Mercy-Lucio." They're instead catering to players that do not care about their initial vision of Overwatch and are changing their vision to appeal to them. In short, 6v6 was ok, the general playerbase isn't and Blizzard's handling of it is the exact opposite of how well their balancing over the past year has been. 5v5 seems like a huge cop out, but I understand business, balance, and vision wise why they've decided to do this.

[@blurse1652]

@@ratchetst3v38 I don’t agree with what you said about them prematurely amputating the leg. A lot of the best things they have done for the game like hero limits and 2-2-2 have been attempts to save the ideal vision of the game by forcing people closer to it, and think these measures were very successful. But 1-2-2 doesn’t seem to address some issue with people straying from the ideal vision of the game; its main benefits aren’t related to that and are instead related to quality of life fixes for the majority of the playerbase. There is less visual clutter; less shielding; and, what is obviously Blizz’s main hope, dps queue time are lowered significantly. The thing is that the ideal vision of the game has to be sacrificed and dramatically changed, much to its detriment imo, in order to make these improvements happen and it just isnt worth it, unless you are one of the many casual players who doesn’t know and/or care aboutthe unique strategical depth that is at OW’s core and is responsible for the highest of the game’s highs. Obviously you can’t get too mad at Blizz for making what is probably a smart business decision, but for the more intangible beautiful essence of the game it is a serious blow, and it sucks to see Blizz inflict this blow to make more money.

[@imbelle83]

How can you say "Lots of people left the game for goats" and then "in diamond you don't find two tank synergizing that much"? As if you found goats in all and every game, from bronze up...

[@KINGVALORE]

Reaper and other Tank Busters are gonna be meta because all they have to do is wipe out the one tank and the rest of the squishies will be wiped. Forcing tank busters to be meta will make playing tank a living hell.

[@maddym.5466]

You mentioned how people pick tanks like Sigma or hog just to frag, those people will still be in ow2 and now there won't be a 2nd tank to make up for the fat dps feeding. Then there's one tricks and mains. If Rein or Winston are the meta tank amd you got a D.va or hog one trick, while the other team plays full meta, who gets screwed out? A 2nd tank kinda helped mitigate some of this in low ranks when someone was throwing, but now it's going to be harder if any player throws, especially the tank player. Also, to add about how people always find to make a tanky meta, Mei will still have wall and has been seen as a semi tank by most, the devs currently seem to be keeping her a a dps, so I won't be surprised if Mei is used as a substitute tank.

[@hy3na739]

getting a pick might matter more but it is also easier for players on the other team to pop off and swing the fight back because there are less people on the field in general

[@connordurham6827]

I’m upset about 5 v 5 from an esports perspective, but it’s not the main reason I’m upset about it. Playing comp in high plat/low diamond as a main tank is not going to be a better experience with the new system, unless something surprises me and I’m not catching something. I exclusively solo queue and usually the other tank is one of the only players that has your back in game. If it becomes so important for the tank to perform in 5 v 5 and I have a bad game, I’m going to get flamed and be disincentivized from playing more tank. That is going to be way worse in ranks like silver. It seems like the change is trying to fix dps queue times and make it more like a shooter than actually improving the gameplay experience, unless making the game more of a death match style game is the goal. It seems like almost every point that is brought up makes a positive case for things outside actual gameplay, besides decluttering and shooting shields, and most of the negatives are gameplay related.

[@michaelscoorah821]

They have literally changed every single tank so i'm sure it will turn out fine

[@catmoonkenobi]

People need to stop saying certain characters will be bad considering we don't know most of the balance changes they're making behind the scenes to make 5v5 viable. If you're viewpoint is based on "current game minus one tank" then you're missing the bigger picture.

[@Caliburnus300]

We got fukkin rick rolled as I was weeping for my off tank role. Hell of a combo.

[@pandakun7398]

If people really like hardcore FPS that much they won't play OW anyway, there're tons of hardcore shooting games out there. What makes OW OW is the moba side of it, it helps not so good FPS players get their position in this game. Making it more FPS doesn't help OW challenging CS or Apex or whatever that's out there.

[@pandakun7398]

And I honestly hate going to new maps and get stucked in narrow valleys just because they decided to have one less tank. What a waste.

[@duckgaming6293]

A lot of people have been asking for drastic changes to how overwatch works for years now and i think it could raise the skill ceiling even higher

[@Cyclone9100]

I kind of feel they should embrace the MOBA spirit a little further and add more role inside the game the same way a moba does. I don't mean get 10 type of role, you'll still have DPS/Tank/Support, but as far as those are concern why not add an other layer like - Widows is a DPS, but she is also consider to be an assassin so she won't be receiving an extra movement speed because that bonus is for brawler for exemple, instead as a Widow you'll be receiving an extra 10% ultimate count after each kill, and so on. That way, you would be able for some character to push away some stuff and add other. Like Reinhard could, for example, give 10% less ultimate, while winston get to be a soldier which reduce cooldown by 1s everytime he kills someone with an ability for example. Zaria could be a brawler be a little bit faster, and maybe Hog get to be a support and self heal etc. And some character could get two bonus (half of each) like Zen is a support/assassin so we know that as far as gameplay goes the better he frags the more ult he's getting :). Other type of bonus could be like a Thorbjorn is a Defense hero and he receives 50 armor for 7 sec. after the healing reduction for being hit stop, etc.

[@abhinavbanerjee8797]

39:37 I enjoyed the way Avast said that.

[@justdave1842]

Reinforce vs Grandpa X: the next great Pay-per-View

[@ando8834]

I hate how good the transition to the tmobile ad was

[@soupdragon5777]

Matt “and whatnot” Morello

[@ccruzp06]

Kurts laugh is the best

[@mckinleyostvig7135]

so weird to see Avast there in person when Matt and Johnny aren't.

[@charleslambert8973]

I’ve been rick rolled by a T-mobile sponsor segment...

[@ReedoTV]

Speaking of 5s… 5G BABY!

[@blaynegreiner9365]

Avast's point about mobility: This is why tanks are getting the CC abilities.

[@skyblue2708]

Not getting, keeping. As far as we know, they aren't adding more CC to tanks than there already is (at least for the current lineup) but they are taking CC away from DPS and from the sounds of it, only the stun CC. Also you can't control a crowd if you can't reach them, so the point remains. Hammer down isn't going to help if they are on a bridge above you.

[@skeratix11]

Totally forgot that fusion doesn’t have their echo player

[@jannel1ne]

I miss Bren. Bren, pls, come back

[@dassvidania1969]

5v5 is basically another step to make fun, versitale overwatch to CS:GO type of game.

[@bpn9761]

No new events for years. Barely any new heroes or maps. Far too slow balancing. The game has been basically the same without bringing in any refreshing new stuff like other games. And instead of changing that, deleting one of the tank spots is definitely the solution