PS5 Pro - PSSR, Initial Missteps, Bright Future, and need for Quality Control

[@ReforgeGaming]

LIVE DISCUSSION - kzbin.infoA0aYCUaT05s

[@stonespirehall2998]

DLSS had the same growing pains, and now its on its 3rd version, increasing in efficiency and ease of use for developers as well as helping games perform better with higher settings enabled.

[@ReforgeGaming]

exactly, we are already seeing improvements

[@joahnn4275]

Except with DLSS while it had issues in the beginning your were not buying a graphic card for that feature specifically, and second you could just turn it off if it didn't look good; which not many games allow you to do on console.

[@gangs0846]

I pay full price now

[@lanceenchainte4890]

This sort of reminds me of the debacle that was the PS3. More specialized hardware and software makes it harder for devs, but with some time with the technology, we’ll get the dividends more and more as time goes on. Some devs will hit it early, maybe sheer “luck”, and others will struggle. Most though will get better with it. Definitely a bit of a rough start for the tech, but it seems the consumer is confident in the tech anyways. Whatever the technical aspects of the Pro, we know what Sony knows how to target what high end console gamers want. Nearly 20% of all PlayStations sold in November were Pro’s according to Circana and Mat Piscatella. Time will tell and I have high confidence in what Sony and Cerny has been doing.

[@ReforgeGaming]

yup that 20% proves the nay sayers wrong

[@toastyburger]

How soon people forget Final Final VII Rebirth and how PSSR transformed that game.

[@alphaj9]

I’ve only played it on PRO and it’s for me one of my top 3 best graphics on pro. 1. Horizon FW 2. Rebirth 3 TLOU 2 remaster

[@zinthos1952]

Looking forward to seeing what Cerny and the team are cooking up for the future

[@ReforgeGaming]

same here!

[@cr0wqu1ll49]

Another great premiere, good discussion Lono!

[@ReforgeGaming]

Thanks for watching!

[@-Old-School-Gamer]

It’s not about GOOD implementation or BAD implementation, older STK’s can’t use the latest version of PSSR and unfortunately the version of PSSR that was available for those older SDK’s hadn’t worked out how to eradicate the shimmer effect yet, but clearly has since. We literally saw a developer come out and explain this in detail. It makes complete sense as well, because it’s an AI (learning) algorithm which needs time to learn and adapt and unfortunately that can only be done overtime with different games. Clearly the older PSSR version hadn’t learnt how to deal with a few problems and unfortunately the latest version can’t be implemented into older SDK’s, therefore it depends when the game was developed, which is why Sony clearly didn’t just implement it in every game systemwide.

[@Luke973T]

This

[@HevICue]

What I understood during the follow up Cerny did with Digital Foundary was that most devlopers don't quite understand the tech yet. In regards to ray tracing, it's meticulous trying to account for every vector that hits only one surface. Now account for it bouncing of of multiple surfaces into each other all accounting for textures. It's not a one size fits just because it's on a console, they will have to be leverage it on a game by game basis. It's the only way to do it.

[@leon45sant]

Seeing what square did with ff7 , i dont care about pssr having some noise at launch in some games. In a year it will all be resolved.

[@AyeItsChillWill16]

Lono earlier this week you said there are many new ps5 owners that didn’t have a ps4 and I came to a realization that I’m somewhat in that group primarily playing sports games. Now trying ghost, horizon and others I’m just blown away by the pro! Even on games that are not enhanced like need for speed! Great vid brotha I can’t for the discussions!

[@ReforgeGaming]

Yeah the Pro is a real game changer, glad you're enjoying it!

[@SeifSoudani]

Marc Cerny is notorious for being the developers friendly guy, rightfully so, that's partly how he made the PS4 to be that great compared to other platforms. And so, given this track record, I think he doesn't wanna appear to be authoritarian especially knowing that adding more work for devs in the current working climate is already tedious. He's current discourse is also a sort of honey moon phase, consisting in saying: "here's an additional envelope of GPU budget, be creative with it", maybe once the Pro is established guidelines could become more mandatory.

[@janwatkins5523]

I can't wait to get myself a pro hopefully for Christmas not going to lie that price is pretty steep but I feel it's worth it

[@ReforgeGaming]

Hope you get one!

[@ramiyohay7286]

The recent AW2 update is great! 40fps + RT quality + PSSR upscale to 4K. amazing!

[@ReforgeGaming]

Yeah that update is a great start!

[@tgrim2034]

The power reaches a level im happy with, however precision optimization has been a bit lacking.

[@ReforgeGaming]

4 games out of 70 is clearly a dev problem, but Sony needs to put a buffer in the way to keep it from happening again

[@LOKNES1]

[@ReforgeGaming]

my man!

[@mandrews6282]

It’s def down to dev implementation and proper QA as I 100 percent expected Unreal Engine games with low internal res on base PS5 and lots of foliage like Space Marine 2 and Wukong to also have issues. But both those games waited over a month to put out those patches and they’re fantastic. Totally agree Sony needs more oversight or guidance here, similar to what Nividia did when DLSS first launched, to ensure games running DLSS were implemented appropriately and avoided known issues. This is imperative. But in light of that hopefully bad press and lost sales are enough of a factor for devs to think twice before rushing something out at least for now.

[@djchronick1]

Love the channel even tho you think Pattinson's Batman is the best one!!😂😂

[@ReforgeGaming]

lol

[@Sticks_of_Truth]

I wouldn't say it's lazy development because the technology doesn't work well with sub 1080P resolutions and I said as much. It's up to the developer to make it Work when the resolutions dip this low. Most of the time the games are developed With upscalers with these low resolutions in mind so you may as well not use PSSR In those casesWoof.

[@weeklygameschat159]

PSSR will take time and solid work from engineers but if PlayStation has the right people in place, it will be in good state in 5 years. I remember the pains of early DLSS in 2019. It seemed foolish at the time but now in 2024 I dont know a person with a 40 series card who isnt taking every advantage that DLSS 3.5 offers. It can drastically increase your performance. 1440p 90-120fps should be achievable and even 4k 60fps+ if handled right

[@JaZter90]

People need to understand that pssr is "just" a tool it's still on the devs to use it right

[@ReforgeGaming]

exactly

[@gangs0846]

False

[@thesisko3750]

Party time! Excellent!

[@ReforgeGaming]

Let's goooo!

[@Jack_Garland78]

If the Joker isn't the main character in The Dark Knight, then how come- oh, sorry.

[@ReforgeGaming]

hahah

[@BigJugsRule92]

Every developer rushed to release that “pro enhanced” stamp on their games, without doing proper optimization. That’s why the some games run bad.

[@UnfilteredJustice]

Isn't Sony supposed to approve these patches? I remember Microsoft used to deny updates that added bugs.

[@feetonland6609]

2022 is the best Batman followed by Batman begins Argue with y’all’s mom mom They are saying we are beta testers lono lol well that beta testing console sold more than series s and x this past month

[@ReforgeGaming]

yup, folks said it wouldnt sell, and it was a huge chunk of playstation consoles sold in nov

[@toastyburger]

Since when is Sony responsible for third party quality control? Won't that lead to allegations of censorship and games skipping the platform? None of the PSSR issues are game breaking. Beyond a certain level of functionality, devs needs to take responsibility for their own games. This isn't a Cyberpunk 2077 issue, a game Sony pulled from their store while Xbox continued to sell it.

[@ReforgeGaming]

quality control on the implementation of a sony branded piece of tech? that isnt censorship wtf

[@johnlerma9753]

No it's true it's the developers and optimization and a bunch of people like graphics like native 4k resolution

[@ReforgeGaming]

native 4k is a waste tho

[@johnlerma9753]

@ReforgeGaming agree to disagree . 4k native is not a waste. It bring the game closer to immersion. Looks more realistic and detailed. Upscaling looks good but lacks so much detail and crisp picture. 4k should have been closer to a norm since laster year very few where playing at native 4k or close to it. Feel like graphics are now stuck in the mud. Would have thought by now with more gpu and cpu and bandwidth would have done that now.

[@mandrews6282]

3 out of the 4 problem games have been fixed as of last week. Avatar and Outlaws are now totally fixed which is nice and was a completely avoidable problem Ubi put themselves into. Alan Wake 2 was also fixed this week. We got rushed and sloppy patches last gen as well on the PS4 Pro, that’s always going to be a liability when you rely on devs spending variable effort. And I think devs are moving in the right direction realizing that PSSR isn’t a magic one size fits all bullet, and like PC, when implemented player choice to use it or not is a must, along with leaving in legacy modes, as it at least it doesn’t hinder the Pro experience over base in any potential ways. QA is also a must as a few of these patches should have never made it out the door if anyone had bothered to turn them on. A 1.0 upscaler was always going to have teething issues. It is incumbant on Sony to make this clear though, especially since even though I do think for 200 over base this is a fantastic upgrade across the board, it is still high for the console market to be used to paying, and if you want to sell a premium product you need to have your ducks in a row. They don’t have the resources of Nividia, but for DLSS 1.0 (which had a bunch of issues as well for a while), Nivida made games apply on a case by case basis to even have the ability to use DLSS as a feature, and they sent engineers on site to make sure it was implemeneted as well as possible or removed if it just wasn’t working for the rendering methods being used in a particular title. Sony at least needs guidance for devs to follow and a checklist for QA to get their versions up on the storefront to help mitigate potential rushed or poor patches. It is imperative that poor patches get fixed (and most are), before PS6 as everyone gets these versions when we move to PS6 whether we want it or not. And PSSR needs time in the wild to evolve before PS6. Overall though, 98 percent of games get meaningful upgrades, a lot more than I expected, we also hit the high end of dynamic resolution for games that use it without a Pro patch in place, and games run smoother (Elden Ring is now the best on PS5 Pro for console play for example with an average 15 fps gain over base PS5). Considering console players have, honestly unrealistic, epectations of top end specs on what is budget hardware over a whopping 7-8 year generation, I do think higher tier console variants and higher pricing will be normalized. And with the cost per transistor being what it is today they can’t just double the GPU size and call it a day like they used to. For XBox and Sony alike. Which is why upscaling tech is imperative to mitigate this. Personally though, I ended up a lot more impressed with the Pro than what I expected (I only got one because my GF wanted her own PS5, she previously played on the XBox, and it was either buy her another base PS5 or I get a Pro and give her my base console, so it worked out). And for a 200 dollar upgrade it more than delivers and hits right where I’d expect for a midgen refresh console. This will only get better as well as games wre Pro enhanced during active development with more time and care over some of the rushed launch patches that hit so devs could be ‘first’. But people need to have expectations in check in general for the hardware they have. If they’re looking for pristine specs, top end image quality, and framerates on console hardware and are waiting for sites like DF to tell them this, it’s just not reasonable. Even last gen the PS4 Pro was billed as a ‘4K machine’ and we almost never got that. At most maybe 1800p checkerboarding. But usually 1440p, and sometimes even just a ‘more stable’ 1080p 30. So this stuff with a couple of these games isn’t any new ground we’re treading. It is a pretty solid upgrade though having had some time with it in person and I absolutely would not go back to the base PS5 after this.

[@ReforgeGaming]

Yup, it's great to see those problematic games getting fixed. PSSR is still a relatively new tech and we're learning as we go. Overall though, it's been a really positive experience for me, and I'm confident things will only get better.

[@gangs0846]

Nope. Blended fanboy

[@rubinperez646]

Love your content. But the way you pronounced Sony it sounds like Sir Knee

[@ReforgeGaming]

I was referring to Mark Cerny by his last name, Cerny

[@AnythingGoesJoJo]

If we want to use the whole TFLOP perspective... PS4 = 1.8 TFLOP PS4 Pro = 4.2 TFLOP Thats about 250% more compute performance...and why a lot of people can see the difference in actual game play. PS5 = 10.28 TFLOP PS5 Pro = 16.7 TFLOP XBOX Series X = 12.15 TFLOP (just for perspective) Thats just 60% more compute performance...and why a lot of people can barely see the difference in actual game play and most cases you actually have to stop playing and actually pixel peep and look for the difference 😅. I know TFLOPS its not a proper comparison....just trying to do a numbers to numbers idea here. I think the PS5 Pro should at least be hitting 20 TFLOPS to be an actual "Pro" console 🤔 I mean really, I dont remember Sony making a video explaining that its going to take time to take advantage of the PS4 Pro after it launched 😏. So what?, by the time they take full advantage of the PS5 Pro the PS6 will be out, C'mon 😂

[@ReforgeGaming]

Cerny addressed TFLOPS. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of where things are going. To think the ps5 pro is less than the ps4 pro jump is just a cherry picked stat talking point. It isn’t true or representative of what the ps5 pro is achieving. And it will only get better because of how PSSR will improve. Another thing your analysis and math ignores.

[@AnythingGoesJoJo]

​​​​@@ReforgeGaming Im just stating the when PS4 Pro launched everyone can see the difference from day one on actual gameplay. PS5 Pro came out some of the differences you have to stop what your doing and look for it. PS5 Pro is a mid cycle refresh...sure it will improve over time, but with the number of games getting released by that time the PS6 is comming out so what is the point of this mid cycle refresh? Yes, my math is off...but does not lie on the current results PS5 Pro is showing right now. ...and what, PS6 is 3 years down the road and here we are listening to Sony's excuse that it will get better? Its obvious why Sony made the PS5 Pro tech video...otherwise they would have done the same with the PS4 Pro 🤔

[@Luke973T]

I thought that i was in 2017 reading this.

[@AnythingGoesJoJo]

​​​@@Luke973T It might as well be since a lot of games getting released are still on PS4 😅. Its been 4 years since PS5 and they cant get rid of the PS4 😅. Well probably get the PS6 and they will still get PS4 releases 😢

[@EthanMondy]

Without Sony having a say in how PSSR is implemented, the technology will get a bad rap because there is no standard.

[@ReforgeGaming]

i dont think enough devs will mess it up, they want their games looking good

[@toastyburger]

Or certain devs will get a bad rep for their poor implementation and see their sales suffer.

[@ThePenhalionsPost]

First off DLSS got better because of hardware changes. Something that the PS5 Pro can't actually do. Secondly even Sony is not blaming developers for PSSR issues given that this is a feature that the developer either switches on or doesn't . The developer does not dictate what we see after it is switched on. Heck FSR 3 looks better as Digital Foundry pointed out and that doesn't even use dedicated hardware. Then finally there is the resolution hit to using the PS5 Pro features. The trade off being that resolution needs to drop LOWER then that of the base PS5! Even a 4080 can't successfully upscale from 849p and make it look good! The developers are not paying attention to the idiots saying these are bad updates when they know they have zero control over PSSR. Why do you think that the solution is to switch it off! PSSR will do ok with a decent resolution and that is entirely dependent on how many features of the PS5 Pro the developer uses. If they go full raytracing then resolution is going to be too low to upscale successfully. It's one or the other not both.

[@toastyburger]

PSSR isn't a switch. It is part of the rendering pipeline and needs to be implemented by the developer. Post processing effects can reduce image quality. We also have reports that PSSR has improved with different SDKs, which falsifies your claim PSSR needs new hardware to get better.

[@ThePenhalionsPost]

@@toastyburger Incorrect and shows that you don't understand what happens in the PS5 pipeline. It is literally a switch within the sdk for which method of upscaling is used or not. It isn't something that I as a developer code up. It's a library provided by Sony that I just use. Not sure who upvoted your mis-information but that kind of thing is exactly the issue with the crazy mis-understanding that some Sony fans have of how things work!

[@skooodle4766]

Destiny Lono was better

[@Erlaxis]

This video could be 1.5 mins long. Too little content.

[@krispybowgod9656]

Ps6 better have 9000 teraflops