The Men of the Manosphere Are Looking for Daddies (Interview Reaction and Discussion)

Get some merch 💕 www.kimberlynfoster.com/merch
Join the Patreon 💕 / forharriet
Follow me on Pinterest 💕 / kimberlynfoster
Read 💕 Black Women Writers at Work: amzn.to/3vOlhC8
Of Boys and Men: amzn.to/3GPg2Zg
00:00 Stream Begins
04:45 Intro and New Merch
11:49 My Interview with a Kevin Samuels Supporter
40:58 My Initial Feeling After Rewatching This Interview
42:27 Book Suggestions
45:32 Discussion

[@ForHarriet619]

Get some merch 💕 www.kimberlynfoster.com/merch Join the Patreon 💕 patreon.com/forharriet

[@karlwilliams8625]

You not wanting a man because he doesn't have a car is admitting by your standards he's not worthy of love, care and affection. Hopefully u won't begrudge a man like that being a passport bro.

[@norelle8705ify]

Hi Kim! I would like to purchase some merch but the link isn't fully loading to add to a shopping cart. I only see pictures of the merch.

[@jordanbaker5201]

@@karlwilliams8625 ❤😊😊😊❤❤❤❤😢😮😢😮

[@kevinwilmore3604]

Harriet. I Love your Content. But what we find "Attractive" has alot to do with our "Genetics."

[@Kalkidanmulu]

0:29

[@regisnyder]

For the “average” Black woman to become more desirable means she must upgrade herself, which then means she must obtain a higher paying job (possibly go to school to qualify for that job) to then pay for that upgrade (i.e. hair, clothes, gym, diet, makeup). But what they fail to understand is that once that “average” Black woman does all that to make herself more desirable she’s no longer AVERAGE! Therefore she becomes unattainable to a lot of these men because her wants & preferences are not AVERAGE. She put in the work to become “desirable” she wants to see the return on her investment. Period.

[@RimahVideo19]

Yes

[@ninagrace-lee8323]

Exactly! Those of us who qualify for prestigious jobs, upgrade our entire lives. We literally set our families on a different trajectory. You better believe I want a return on that investment

[@Princetonian4eva]

This is true. The access I have to improve my outward and inward self has drastically changed for the better when moving from a mid-level paying job to a six-figure one. Better gym/fitness activities, trainers, coaches, mentors, classes, food, supplements, etc.

[@DoraWinifred]

BINGO! I want to like this comment 10000s times

[@mizkomunikation9478]

While I agree, I promise you these weak “manosphere” bros will answer you by claiming men don’t care what you make or what you have. So you’re supposed to work hard to be the best version of yourself, just to be told by some loser that “You’re a 4, at best.” because none of your work/academic accomplishments matter to them.

[@jestenia590]

As a plain chick built like an ironing board, dudes who say i can just snag a free meal have me rolling. Below-average looking women do not exist in their world, unless it’s time to dunk on us.

[@alexandravalerious3274]

girl same ive never gotten a free drink at the bar/club let alone a meal so idk where they think ALL women can get free stuff from men

[@Vanessa-iq3vt]

Stop not ironing board 😩

[@aesanonymous8936]

I was trying to explain to a guy who didn't believe me when I told him that I only ever get hit on by old creepy broke men, ain't nobody trying to buy me shit, but delusions 😭

[@Iwantallmymoney2024]

They trying to convince you that you can get picked because they themselves want a free meal. They want you to be available and be ready to do anything to get picked because they will be the beneficiaries of that mindset. Ain’t nothing like a women that wants to get picked, they pay bills, pay for dinner, pay for anything to be picked. 😂😂😂😂

[@SpaztasticSheep]

This! The type of women they mean are like 20% of the population

[@BremiiXO]

He can keep saying that he wants to dismantle patriarchy but it’s clear he only wants to dismantle it because he’s not benefiting from the ideals lmao not bc of the actual harm it causes

[@k2kfitchannel944]

🫣

[@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow]

Isn’t that why most people want their oppressive forces removed? 😂

[@BremiiXO]

@@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow nah some people actually want better for people outside of themselves

[@malmal3003]

Bingo!

[@fangal12]

@@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow No, I'm a naturally born US citizen and still think ICE should be abolished because of the harm it causes others

[@Arian-vf6jo]

As women have become more financially successful, they have left less successful men behind. In a patriarchal world, if a man can not dominate his woman, then he feels that he is less of a man. This builds a lot of resentment in them.

[@madant22]

If a woman feels a man can’t dominate her then she feels he’s less of a man. What are you saying.

[@raven3moon]

@@madant22 No. She's saying that a man who isn't insecure doesn't need to feel like has to tear someone else down to make himself feel better. That society teaches men that they should dominate or else he isn't conforming to the patriarchally myopic understanding of masculinity.

[@Arian-vf6jo]

@madant22 I don't think a lot of people would allow themselves to be dominated by people less than them. If you earn less than the woman you want to be with or she is in a better social class, then you are less than her, and by definition, you can not be the dominant one. It is quite clear by today's standards that just being a male doesn't automatically make you better than any woman, and that is what men need to understand. Or if your ego is that fragile, date a woman in the same social class or lower to yours. This is why I have no issue with passport bros.

[@lightskintwin]

I think dominate is the wrong word. I would say a significant amount of men want to feel "superior" in some way to their woman and respected as such, and by "superior" I simply mean more than she has. Typically it means more financially successful, but it can also mean more sexually experienced, more educated, more intellectual, more cultured, more well-traveled, more social experiences, etc... than his woman because it increases the likelihood of her being more impressed by him and respected which in turn makes him "feel like a man". People tend to focus on youth and beauty being the reasons older men prefer younger women but I also think the things I stated play a key role as well.

[@Arian-vf6jo]

@lightskintwin I get your point, but a lot of manosphere content is about women being submissive and feminine. They definitely believe it is their God-given right to dominate women, and this is what they want and demand.

[@ethicalibra]

i feel as though men are finally realizing how the patriarchy REALLY harms them. it’s not womens responsibility to make sure you are existing comfortably in the patriarchy. we don’t have that kind of social power either.

[@lightskintwin]

Only men who don't benefit from it may be finally realizing it.

[@pdpUU]

Yes! And maybe even realizing that women can’t solve the patriarchy for them. How they play a part.

[@DoraWinifred]

Even if we did have that social power to uphold it, WHY would we uphold a system and belief that harms us.

[@AM-AnitaM]

@@DoraWinifred if we had power, we wouldn’t be haven’t this discussion.

[@Zikomo7]

I’ve never been team “he need tuh pay all the bills!!” Because it ignores the fact that everything is so expensive. I’m happy for the women that don’t have to work but it’s rare. The problem is men’s expectation that we contribution equally to the bills but be subservient in everything else. Not that $$ is a trade off for financial support. Housewives deserve to listened to and respected too.

[@marsha1758]

There is this concept I learned in therapy called magical thinking. Adults and children do this. Sometimes when children have an absent parent or abusive parent they make up a parent in their minds who has all of these super hero type qualities and they project those qualities on to the abusive/absent parent. They do this in order to preserve the attachment to the abusive parent. I think this is what is going on with poor Tony. I think the most important question to ask Tony is, "Did you have a relationship with your father?" If not "What did you tell your self about his absence?". Lots of kids, especially boys, really want a relationship with their fathers and as a child they can't accept that their father may not have wanted a relationship with them. So they may make up a story about a really great dad who would be there if it weren't for their mean, ugly, not feminine,(fill in the blank) mother. This is why woman are getting all this flack. Women don't realize when they are raising children alone they aren't really doing it alone . Some are doing it in the shadow of a magical daddy. That's why it is important for men to get therapy.

[@MsInsaneNMembrane]

Wow! Magical thinking. Thank you for this

[@aprilsmith5660]

Really insightful. “In the shadow of a magical daddy.”

[@brittanyr1456]

Definitely going to research more on this

[@lesliewit]

This is part of the reason why I support my son's dad in their life, within reason. He likes to do a lot of last minute, half-a**ed activities, and THAT doesn't fly. But they're exposed to him and getting to know him and the rose tinted glasses fell off LONG ago. They treat him exactly in accordance with his behavior. Ultimately they are learning the difference between an involved and engaged parent and a disengaged one that can't commit. 🤷🏿‍♀️It's just like TS Madison said, "Everybody working gets paid".

[@LibraVibesSnice80]

I did this growing up!!! I didn’t have my mother or father; raised by a great aunt and I ALWAYS “day dreamed” or the magical thinking that I had a caring loving mom and dad because my aunt was abusive and resented me. I would pick out people in magazines and wish they were my parents… I would lie to school mates about my “real” parents… I’m 42 now and thriving but it took therapy and a lot of self love to lift myself up from childhood trauma. ❤

[@elonevora]

I originally saw this months ago on Patreon and I’m still blown away at how he can claim to be anti-patriarchy and not realize that he is fully leaning into it by changing his career in order to attract the type of women he wants to partner. He resents patriarchy but still wants its benefits; regardless of how harmful it may be.

[@ladybug3380]

This is the same with white supremacy 😂

[@VIPVICTORY88]

I don’t understand your logic you it’s like saying you don’t want to participate in capitalism but realistically that’s not an option so even if he says he doesn’t like patriarchy realistically it’s a system he has to. participate in because that’s how the world is

[@elonevora]

@@VIPVICTORY88 then he should be placing blame/his anger on the patriarchal-capitalist system we all have to live in, not the Black women who don’t find him desirable. Also, just because we live in a patriarchal-capitalist world doesn’t mean you have to fully embrace and succumb to its principles. Going to get an MBA to earn more money in order to attract a partner is not ambivalently living in the system we have. It’s reinforcing and doubling down on the ideologies of patriarchy and capitalism. Therefore, saying you’re ‘anti-patriarchy’ is simply not true.

[@VIPVICTORY88]

@@elonevora see I maybe interpreted things he was saying differently than you because to me he was placing the blame on the patriarchy and a lot of his resentment came from not having a father or father figure in his life and as far as him participating in the system by getting a better job it makes sense to me because he wants a better caliber of woman and to do that he has to become a higher caliber man and part of that is making more money but I’m curious in how you would participate in these systems such as capitalism or patriarchy and succumbing to it but I don’t think it’s possible it’s like wanting to live in a nice house but not wanting to work realistically how are you going to obtain the money for the house if you don’t work .. I’m just trying to understand

[@Blahgirl283]

That's pretty human. There are loads of things we all hate that we still buy into in the hopes that it will help us or our family. We recognize so many of our institutions are corrupt, but we still want better paying jobs and houses and the chance at better opportunities for our children monetarily. So that, i can forgive him for bc I know I'm not perfect when it comes to things like that.

[@JustJohnda]

I am a woman who dated and married below their educational and professional level, not so much money, but job description. It is a huge issue. I don't know one woman who did this that doesn't have this issue, and I am older than you, so I have seen and lived it across generations. Men can not handle it, especially when they are around YOUR peers, even when you are perfectly adept at making them look like Barack Obama with theirs. Don't even get me started on how it goes down at organizational functions, events, how you raise the children, and what values related to upward mobility and networks come in to play. Woo girl, I am getting stressed just writing about it. And the insecurity is on 1000!

[@Got2BOshun]

Singing my life & my mothers life with your words

[@exjehooberdubexpiobeezleeb6269]

"organizational functions, events" Girl, tell me how the guy I was with asked colleagues at my work function how much they made? I about DIED. 😳🤡🥴 Never again!

[@Shonnie1122]

🎯🎯🎯

[@MsInsaneNMembrane]

Omggggg they can love you but everywhere else they are so embarrassing and taxing

[@monicaDD]

Agreed. Been there. Done that. Would not recommend

[@derinaries]

"I dont like women telling me what to do." But its okay for men to tell us what to do? It is impossible for me to have empathy for a group of people that lack it.

[@angelac2228]

Men don't like taking criticism or instructions from women. It's in their nature, I believe. However, they can take it from other men. Just like women don't like hearing the truth from men.

[@msthangndcmetro]

Yeh I lost all my empathy toward him at that point. Also means he devalues the voice of women period.

[@plainman9887]

Are you looking for a husband or a son?

[@allenlevelle]

@@plainman9887 FACTS 💯

[@damnkevindeaderthanamf6068]

@@plainman9887 are u looking for a child or wife 🤔

[@Nallisn]

I think someone said it best when they commented that these men are mad that they’re not getting the IG baddies that they want. They’re angry at them for going after high earning men. They sit in their room all day, liking their pictures, steaming over not getting a response or being ignored in the woman’s DMs, that they take it out on all women. Trust me, they’re not in the DMs of regular looking women

[@heyoka33]

(😆) according to a study by okcupid up to (80%) of men are considered unattractive to women, so even the "regular " women are going after the high earning men( top 20%), giving them options and reducing the options for the rest of men (80%)

[@Nallisn]

@@heyoka33 I don’t know what kind of stats are those, but it sound questionable. I’m sure within that, those men are trying to match with the hottest and most attractive women, which will definitely reduce their options.

[@Les_lee]

I honestly don’t get it. The part where he says my world is shaped basically by women. I was supported by women but i also resent that. We stay. We struggle. We find a way. But we’re the problem?!!! I asked my dad once what he thinks the issue is with black men and he said “until women hold them accountable nothing will change. Wtf. How is it always women having to do the work. Its so exhausting. I want my partner to have what i have minimally. I work , he should work, i have my own place, he should have his own place, i have a car, you have a car. I have never been to jail or prison, he should not have been to jail or prison. I don’t think that is unreasonable.

[@RimahVideo19]

Girl! You just said a WORD!

[@heyoka33]

It's called non exclusive dating (😆)

[@paintitblack9712]

Damn👏 so true

[@Carlyon100]

@Les_lee 2013 they say a bad boy better than no boy at all. Let that simmer for a bit.

[@heyoka33]

@@Carlyon100 This is a manosphere argument, that women would rather share a (HVM) than have a faithful beta.(😆)

[@kimcooper6268]

But KS called men who were low earners and overweight low value. He’s not mad at KS but he is mad at women. He was doing all kinds of mental gymnastics to blame BW. I think these men need to heal from being abandoned by their fathers.

[@thatimokoena8357]

I think we all need healing not just black men per se!!

[@Nisa1971]

If you are a black person in America you need therapy. Everything in American society says you are not enough.

[@attitudeproblem6462]

Yep. Daddy not being there seems to be the _one thing_ that he doesn’t care to expound upon…😒😒😒

[@tcg5427]

They arent even able to say it out loud...they are quick to say single mother but put a period on it. Should be i was raised by a single mother and abandoned by my father.

[@Heyu7her3]

And the word "simp" comes from Black men... shocker 🤯

[@heyiam4554]

I'm one of those women who like to walk, prefer public transportation, and don't care for car culture, but I'm not one who has friends who go to Soho house or would call a man a dusty because they don't make a lot of money. He does not want me. He doesn't want his own demographic because he's seeking social status with whatever woman he wants and doesn't want to be realistic or choose a person that fits him or his lifestyle.

[@Wanjiro81]

Which, ironically, is what KS criticized “modern women” for, which is funny.

[@iamlaurengill]

Exactly he doesn’t want the woman that would want what he can provide. He wants the baddies. That why he went to the gym and business school because he wants to be able to attract a different kind of woman

[@og1881]

@@iamlaurengill and is not satisfied with his results

[@jessicab331]

This is the case 99% of the time!

[@heyoka33]

@@Wanjiro81 you misunderstood, (KS) wasn't critical of women getting an education, he was critical of getting an education, then saying they( women) want to pay (10%) of household bills as an equal. (😆)

[@LifebyChi]

Men are literally the ones who started this system. I am a medical student and since the beginning of my existence the men in my family have set a standard that I shouldn’t dare enter a relationship with a man who isn’t financially at my level. My male patients even tell me the same thing. The other day I had an older white man literally look me in my eyes and tell me if a man can’t meet me where I am financially ($200k+) don’t give him the time of day no matter how cute he is or how great he can speak. Black women didn’t start the patriarchy, men did and sadly the ones who don’t benefit from it feel unseen just like the trump republicans who feel forgotten because capitalism left them behind.

[@Jimmy-ye1nw]

There many beautiful, loyal, faithful, and God fear middle class Asian women who will make any black man a great traditional wife, mother, and lover, I know because i'm married to one for 14 years. Don't settle bm.

[@longlivebeans]

My dad told me the same thing lol that’s why I’m like huh? Why are all these men now telling us to date down when all we’ve ever heard from them is date up? Tf is going on here?

[@LifebyChi]

@@longlivebeans yea it’s strange lol 😂 I think it’s men who don’t have fathers who are leading this. Because no father is telling his daughter that. They’re telling them to get their equal or better. No parent wants less for their child

[@attitudeproblem6462]

Yep. The men that _matter_ will call dusties “dusty”, too.

[@tanyazion4045]

@@longlivebeans Same and he reminded me again after my husband died a year ago.....

[@MF-pk2gf]

When Kim said this at 53:52, I HOLLERED: “How can you be mad that women are judging you by the same criteria that your FAKE DADDY lays out.” 😂

[@V4Now]

Because he's a man with experience, credentials and respect from his peers and can actually break down why and gives guidance. And because the women asking that, they can't match it, most blk women are over compared to blk men, so who is a woman to say "go to the gym", for example?

[@MF-pk2gf]

@@V4Now It’s a cult. Kevin was pimpin’ y’all.

[@sabrinawallette2085]

As Tony's female physical counterpart his cognitive dissonance was working overtime to point I was literally stupefied. Like, what's not clicking dude? Fatphobia, anti-blackness, being poor and white supremacist beauty standards are whooping both our asses in the dating poll and how society treats us but he doesn't acknowledge it cuz he doesn't find a person like me attractive so I don't matter in his eyes.

[@DLReed-qc4fy]

He couldn’t acknowledge it because he wants the benefits of patriarchy without saying. So he has to ignore how BW are devastatingly brought down by that same system.

[@sabrinawallette2085]

@@DLReed-qc4fy like I wanted to reach through the screen and shake him. Like come on man! He says down with the patriarchy cuz he not considered handsome enough or make enough money by society standards. So he wants it gone even though he believes that bs with his whole chest.

[@TheOriginalScorpioBelle]

I just asked a man this question. He hadn’t even thought about it. But I had him go back to high school in his head and think about the girls he doesn’t remember. The invisible girl that no one talked to or interacted with. He had an epiphany right before my eyes.

[@coconutwater4531]

Yes, it’s pretty obvious that he doesn’t desire his own counterpart. Men typically don’t see women they aren’t attracted to. He gets no sympathy from me.

[@APD089191]

@@coconutwater4531 Most of the time they don’t see them and when they do they just disrespect them because they dare not being attractive.

[@rafiqah4106]

"Partnering the wrong man can f_@× up your whole life." Kimberly said a mf-ing word.

[@anony1596]

I want so badly for this man to have an on camera discussion with F.D. Signifier. If he respects men's commentary and critique more, I'd really enjoy hearing what discussions they'd get into on a mic. The whole I'm anti-patriarchy/I'm a feminist, but wanting patriarchal benefits is so fascinating to me. Especially coming from a man who sounds so smart. Like how is he not more self aware of the contradictions? He should be focusing on confronting them instead of feeding into them.

[@TititoDeBologay]

I don't think He'd be able to deal with F.D. he might have a breakdown or lash out.

[@sabrinawallette2085]

F.D. will have him crying and throwing up in a corner. F.D. actually critics with common sense.

[@elenakalliste]

Yes that would so productive! And maybe actually make him see things that are right in front of him. A man doesn’t go into social work by accident or because he thinks it’s going to elevate his social status, there has to be a well-intentioned heart underneath all that resentment and misguided nonsense.

[@tamararodriguez4413]

@@sabrinawallette2085 omg.. FD would eat him up with logic and common sense.

[@anony1596]

@@elenakalliste yes yes 100% yes

[@JustJohnda]

It's interesting how he started out articulating so much about his view of women and relationship with them was shaped by women, but the fact that his father was not around was a mere footnote. That is significant because if his father was not there by choice (he didn't elaborate, but let's say he wasn't for the sake of discussion), then wouldn't he be person who should have been your primary male influence, who could have theoretically provided balance at fault? Your mother, grandmother, and aunties can only show you what THEY know.

[@OGK-1414]

What's crazy to me is all of the "good things" men claim KS said, Steve Harvey has been saying for years, but there was no bw bashing so I guess it wasn't valid. (Not saying SH is perfect just an observation) In fact, when KS started, bm paid him no attention until he tore down bw.

[@V4Now]

@@OGK-1414 Steve Harvey? 😂 What he said for men to do was for the benefit of women, without saying women need to change. And he made money off telling women what they wanted to hear. And no, you can't blame absent fathers, most women push the fathers away, there are hundreds of videos of Women getting pregnant out of wed lock to good or bad men and say "I can do it by myself, I don't need a man" and contact there dads to find out the mothers stopped the fathers. Court documents and documentaries from the 70s and 80s show that. She said it herself in the video "I don't believe you need a father in the home". Accountability.

[@Got2BOshun]

This is what happened to our mothers & grandmothers, they dated & married down, they wound up abused, divorced & angry…our parents & grandparents are proof that this does not work

[@Pbbbb]

Or dead.. let’s not forget the murdering of wives and women in this community. It’s hardly talked about yet in 2022 it was every 5 hours

[@AM-AnitaM]

It then turn into unchecked resentment. We all know the outcome of that. Women realizing their worth feels like death to those that benefit from uploading the system.

[@SE-gs6gd]

Well both sets of my grandparents were pretty awesome. They believed in education excellence HOBBIES! Doing stuff for fun and learning a new skill. Not everyone out here is blaming their grandparents for the failures of society. My grandparents were amazing!

[@13579hee]

No... the vast majority of them did not date now. They dated on their levels. The vast majority of black women in America are poor.. just like black men.

[@ad2094]

@@SE-gs6gd you're still thinking very narrowly if you're limiting generational trends and discussions about culture and sociology to your individual experience.

[@leebird9023]

The primary feeling Tony evoked in me is sadness. If he was hitting the gym to feel good in his own body, that would be one thing, but it's not for him: it's to impress women. If he wanted to attend business school because he felt more passionate about that than social work, that would be one thing, but it's not for him: it's to impress women. He says he doesn't want to be controlled by women, but his desire for + conflict with women control him by pulling him in opposite directions. He seems like a naturally gentle and kind person, but capitalism and the patriarchy are beating his best qualities out of him. I hope he finds a competent and compassionate therapist who can show him how valuable and worthy he ALREADY is, so he can stop chasing fake success and attain real joy.

[@fruitmonsterfly1]

You said everything I was thinking. A lot of his anger and frustration is misplaced

[@Heyu7her3]

He's angry at his dad for not being in his life (that being clear because he completely skipped over mentioning him). He needs to heal that before he steps out into dating again.

[@kmariamv]

Amen, well said

[@ntuan9360]

He also would do better outside of LA.

[@CassieTranthesuperfitbabe]

Someone just needs to tell him that he has to better himself FOR himself and try to be the father figure that he needed for his inner child or so. That IS possible. Like you said, this is totally a case where the patriarchy and capitalism sucked his soul out and made him feel inadequate as a human being, especially given that he is a Black man who isn't known to be rich or fit the beauty standards.

[@crystalpowell8619]

There was so much to that interview. What is evident to me is as Black women are asked to be more feminine, there is a financial cost to that. A man can’t want the epitome of all that and be mad at the financial expectation put upon them for that. The other thing we saw is the intentional invisibility of the average black woman. Even the woman who raised him are not to be heard or seen, when compared to a man who had no vested interest in men except to build his platform.

[@ninagrace-lee8323]

Girl this is it!! I literally squealed bc you said EXACTY the same words I have used: intentional invisibility. I don’t think a lot of BM know how unseen the average black woman is. The working class girls without a social media presence, the ones who don’t look like a 10? They are around them everyday but have zero interest in respecting those women, just taking them to bed from a club somewhere. And the professional, feminine black woman? The ones with the prestige, accolades and the job? Yeah. They don’t know those women IRL so they are convinced we don’t exist. WE DO. We just remain silent and very very out of reach. Keeping a low profile when you have a lot to lose is key

[@nwatson2773]

Women told him to get his ish together and he needed to hear it from a man.

[@ogralphbeats4035]

really? i have seen feminine women in impoverished living conditions in various countries. so why do american women need more money to be more feminine?

[@ogralphbeats4035]

@da midwif so you can argue with my definition? then i clarify my definition and then you shoot that down too? no thanks. most of the world knows what feminine means. im gonna need you to join them

[@wuzzap1233]

Imagine as a woman you labor for hours to have a son. Raise him alone because his daddy skipped out. Motivate him to chase his dreams throughout life and then he gets online and gives all the credit to his success to his internet daddy Kevin Samuels LOL

[@jamberry8026]

Some of them will give credit to their biological daddy just because he said something that one time he came to visit.

[@annoyedbyyourface]

Damn - this is the best comment because it's the saddest comment. And it's sad because it's true!

[@obiwontrice]

Stop the cap. You didnt know who was the father? Was he married? Did you run him off? Black women love propagating this rumor

[@infinitedreaming222]

@@obiwontrice Doja cats father is very LOUD example. He was only interested in HIS CHILD after she got famous. Y’all don’t care for your legacy.

[@MsOrganicBlack]

​@@obiwontrice "Run him off." Black men love propagating this excuse.

[@didyallseethat499]

I feel men like him feel entitled to women that are out of their league. They expect women to humble themselves, but I’ve never seen them truly willing to humble themselves and seek a partner that’s on their level. I wonder how many overweight, darker, complected, lower, middle income women has he tried to date??? Disclaimer- I’m commenting as I’m watching, so I haven’t gotten to the end.

[@stilljocelyn_]

That’s the same thought I had.

[@Hersheydimples]

This!

[@heyoka33]

It's the same with men that are the top(20%), the female competition is heavy, giving such men options ( access to other women) so he doesn't need a "partner," having already been successful.

[@michellepreston9799]

Men feel entitled to women period even women that are already in relationships. They get upset with the word no.

[@ogralphbeats4035]

@@michellepreston9799 maybe you should move out of Hells Kitchen. by age 18 men have heard no from women more than youll ever hear it from a man

[@daydreamer2k10]

Why do men want to come to the table empty handed and be accepted? Being an empty handed man, you shouldn’t want to be around any woman til you get your hands on something.

[@shekawashington1161]

Exactly

[@korionterivers9995]

This the one

[@shekawashington1161]

@@GoldGirl919 Can we have a open discussion on it being so many ugly men

[@DawnNa_22]

This! Why would you be focused on dating anyone new if you don’t even have reliable transportation? Priorities…

[@ladybug3380]

Exactly! I think they expect women to struggle with them. Struggle=love in the black community. I guess this is what happens when you’re descendents of slaves, it’s hard to unlearn what the ancestors were taught.

[@Afrinaturality]

He said something interesting in response to the question at 32:39. Essentially even if what the woman is saying, critiquing or suggesting is right, he finds it harder to accept and digest if it comes from a woman instead of a man. I've definitely encountered this with a man formerly in my life who would rather shoot himself in the foot than accept good, well meaning and considerate advice. 🤷🏾‍♀️ Pride, hard-headedness and stubbornness are catapulting people into confusion.

[@shekawashington1161]

I totally understand his sentiment on who he decides to take advice from however he’s from a culture where the men don’t hold other men accountable, BM enjoy seeing men treat women like dirt, they’re content with being low earning.

[@iamlaurengill]

It’s called misogyny. He demonstrated a moment of misogyny

[@lulemon6483]

This blows my mind. Because one thing about Black men is that they are intentionally cruel in their criticisms of each other, masked as jokes and jabs. He wasn’t calling you broke from a place of love lol

[@domii3067]

@@lulemon6483 for fucking real, some be shady on the daily but mask it bonding/joking etc. like nah you said it with yo whole chest don’t play it down now

[@korionterivers9995]

Now this is something I have trouble with. I listen to my wife, but maybe not as clearly as I should. For instance some thing’s go in one ear and out the other. I think it just comes to the fact that we want to follow our own mind. Or I will speak for myself, I don’t really like listening to anyone so any unsolicited advise is brushed aside. I really need to work on this and I thank you for pointing this out.

[@Jurnjurnsvlog]

As a woman who was born into poverty and am now in upper middle class, I know exactly what you mean about having to navigate the culture of classism. I find that many black women are willing to overlook making more money than their partners, but they must have a PARTNER that they can take into these higher end social settings whether for work, pleasure, and/or networking and have that person be able to hold conversations, be interesting, and comfortable. Most men who are not of that class would feel uncomfortable and not willing to be coached on how to navigate those spaces. Much bigger than money, because it even goes as deep as how are they raising and socializing children, and then that becomes a thing.

[@CadillacBoss30]

If many black women are willing to overlook men making more money, why is it that so many black women seem so unwilling to take men who have less swag and are less connected to trends that evolve from Hip Hop culture. No man can navigate EVERY social space. To use one of my favorite sitcoms as an example(Fresh Prince). Why are so many black women trying to get Will to get better at navigating their middle/upper class work spaces and functions, instead of just taking Carlton who can do that in spades??

[@13579hee]

@@CadillacBoss30 because they are obsessed with "cool" men

[@CadillacBoss30]

@Reesie then what really is my issue?

[@Jurnjurnsvlog]

@@CadillacBoss30 I’m not sure how old you are, but that may be part of the experience that you’re describing here. It’s also important for us to get off (stay off) the internet, experience real life, and understand that a few bad interactions with people aren’t indicative of the whole. As a 40 year old black woman who has been married to a black man for 15 years, and easily know at least a dozen fully black married couples, most of this stuff is fake news IMO. I do understand that I just may be in a different bubble, and I try to listen to these arguments with an open mind. Most scenarios in life aren’t so clear cut as, women only like cool guys, etc. There is so much nuance to real life that is missed in these conversations.

[@CadillacBoss30]

@@Jurnjurnsvlog I'm 33 and happily married to a black women. My comment and example was set to specifically ask why women don't prioritize the men that already know how to navigate the middle/upper class environments. It seems like women are willing to work with (I'm not advising this) men on this but won't work on their swag or style. Thats what Ciara did for Russell Wilson who was dating white women and labeled corny by his peers. I understand that situations are nuanced and those situations would change my comment. The black couples I know are usually evenly yoked. And let me be clear I'm not talking about pookies or Dusty men. Maybe he is just blue collar. But if navigating middle upper class events is so important why isn't that a major factor in the partners the women complaining find attractive.

[@cosmicpesco]

This dude is politely saying the same stuff as the angry men of the Manosphere. He sounds just as entitled. This was an extremely informative conversation!

[@heyoka33]

What angry men, and what are they saying that you disagree with? crickets

[@ddavis8988]

What's funny is he said the same thing in a nice way. The thing women said men should talk to them. And women are still upset about it lol. So, it proves tone doesn't matter and never did.

[@msnos6245]

He's off in the head. I'm sorry. His expectations are unreasonable.

[@heyoka33]

@@msnos6245 what expectations are unreasonable?

[@msnos6245]

@@heyoka33 and he needs mental help

[@Eniggra]

That class/ socio economic status resentment you spoke of really hit home. I literally watched the decline of my boomer parents’ marriage during my childhood because of that. My mom has a double master’s degree and my dad is literally a convicted felon (he got incarcerated when I was an infant). She waited on him to serve his time (about a decade) and had his whole new life on the outside set up for him (she got a house and two cars in her name, him a new wardrobe, etc). He was able to get a decent paying blue collar job too through an inmate release program. He didn’t want for shit. Very long story short, it was clearly too much for him because he completely self sabotaged the entire shit. He ended up not doing his part at all in parenting or providing on top of returning to criminal activity. The situation put my mom in such a financial hole that we were almost gonna ended up homeless. She divorced him of course. Very traumatic thing for my young self to witness/ endure. I still for the life of me can’t understand why she didn’t just move on when he got locked up. She told me even the judge at the trial said it was a very bad idea.

[@DELLRS2012]

I had a boomer friend tell me that black women had it seriously rough, especially in the 80s /90s. Very few black men were functional, available, and interested in black women. A disproportionate amount of black men were either in jail or using their access to social mobility to start multiracial households. I could see how a black women would feel insecure and a little hopeless. Ugh

[@Carlyon100]

@Mx. Big Daddy She totally emasculated him. It would have been a kindness to have left him in captivity because their situations and outlook had changed. He had to be insular to survive his winter of discontent while she needed to be magnanimous to prove her best intent(ions) and it ruined them both. However you slice and dice it you cannot equate self determination on somebody else's time or dime.

[@tahtz20]

I also feel like men lived vicariously through Kevin. Yes he may be gentle, but it may have tickled him to hear such criticisms of BW.

[@aliyahaliyahkent6204]

During the pandemic(I'm a Chef) I worked in the warehouse to keep a paycheck. I cut fancy cheese all day, huge logs of cheese. One of the only black men in the building came into my department to say " It's nice watching black women work hard" I had another black woman with me and a Mexican man. I snapped, my first question was " what does that even mean, have you not watched your mother/sister/aunt/cousin work hard". I quit that day, but I also realized things had changed between the black man and the black woman. They don't appreciate our sacrifice we made for them or the tools of survival we taught them. I have a son, and I am very aware he watched his mother provide enduring long ruff nights...only to resent me.

[@calimorgan22]

I’m a 34 year old woman and I hate to say it but as a straight woman dating below your income level and/or education level usually doesn’t work. I’ve seen countless examples of partnered/married men who feel insecure about themselves & their relationships due to those differences. Or they resent their wives. Not all men but a lot. I’m an RN and during my pregnancy I was unable to work the first 2 trimesters. I ended up becoming a stay at home mom. I can’t imagine what I would’ve done if my husband couldn’t take care of us. This country is wildly expensive so money matters. Great video.

[@abigailthomas6076]

Exactly. I agree

[@msnewsenior]

Relationships in which the woman earns a substantial amount more in income than the man have the highest rate of failure. Statistically speaking it makes no sense to date a low earner if you’re a high earning woman

[@eigna8914]

It doesnt work when its the same or more.

[@aarondavis2258]

When he said "KS spoke to me in a way that I was never spoken to before." That's beyond bad. That you don't have any male-mentors or men that you look up to you that can guide you in the right direction, so you latch on to the first Black man you see on KZbin who claims to be in expert in all things relationships smh.

[@bronzebomber814]

Yes he's but I think it's alot of the issue I as a woman grew up in a matriarchal family so seeing health communication between opposites sexes was a skill that I had to cultivate. that said if he tired of being taught to be a man by women why isnt his disdain towards all the men (father uncle brother granfather ect) that didn't pave the way or set a standard..women never choose willingly to raise children alone but it's seems like these movements are a result of men leaving the children but women then being blamed for something that's out of our direct control..

[@devynraydi1563]

I'm glad you were fortunate enough to be able to have those role models growing up. For those of us who didn't, we try to look for models of masculinity to fill that gap- for me it was characters in fiction. It's not bad, sad or anything else to seek connection with someone who can offer you something. It's human.

[@heyoka33]

You do know that (KS's( he's an image consultant)) show was for men and not women, hence the delivery is something men like and women the world over didn't like.

[@bunchielove6893]

@@heyoka33 why are you stating the obvious. He was an internet charlatan pandering to fatherless men. What's your point?

[@heyoka33]

@@bunchielove6893 You confuse, understanding female thought and action by men with pandering. Either having a father( that might not be informed) or being fatherless ( having no information, whatsoever) men teaching men about female reproductive strategies shouldn't be considered pandering.(😆) Unless you want men to remain ignorant (😆)

[@yes_anotherone3260]

Interesting conversation about having a cars. The issue isn't just about having a car or not. A car, in most of America, is a signifier of financial stability. Black women are looking for signs that a potential partner will not be a financial drain.

[@Wanjiro81]

…as they often are for us

[@13579hee]

When you're talking about black women who themselves don't have cars... this is complete and total BS. No woman in her right mind should be judging a man for not having a vehicle when she herself doesn't have one. Nor should women ever be relying on men for something so trivial

[@bronzebomber814]

@@13579hee What two people without a car going to do ?? What sort of upward mobility is either of them going to achieve without a car. I live in FL and mass transit isn't very efficient like it is in major metropolises so having a car is a means to a lively hood. If I was a woman with a car would it be wrong then??

[@13579hee]

@@bronzebomber814 personally I don't have a gripe with people not owning Vehicles because I have an understanding that the vast majority of black folks in the US are members of The Working Poor and cars are really expensive 😂 but if I'm willing to indulge in these types of nonsensical conversations where we over inflate the black communities class position 😂 I I think adult individuals should be working towards getting their own vehicles, be it a man or a woman. I don't think any woman needs to be sitting around trying to figure out how she can become upwardly Mobile by getting with a man, the way you imply. I also don't think that having an automobile automatically means you can become upwardly mobile.. there's far more that comes into play then just having a car to drive 😂 so with my point of view.. no. I don't think that any man who doesn't have a car should be waiting around to find a girlfriend who does, just like I don't think any woman who doesn't have a car should be waiting around to find a boyfriend who does. What happens if your car owning partner of any gender identity decides that they no longer want to be in a relationship with you? I guess it's back to the bus then huh? 😂

[@yes_anotherone3260]

... as I said, it's likely not about the car. It's our concern about financial stability. Research and anecdotal experience suggest that black women's economic viability is significantly impacted by the men we partner with.

[@mizzmolly7649]

Kimberly, you're one of just a few blk people (women or men) on KZbin who actually understands class differences and the complications that can come when two people essentially have nothing in common. I'm a 60 year old woman, and not only do I get it, but I preach it.

[@heyoka33]

Wabi Sabi 😆

[@moniquemarrie]

I learned this lesson with my ex-fiancé. He worked in social services, I worked in corporate, and he resented the hell out of me! He hated me because he needed me to afford the lifestyle that my income provided. That was a hard pill to swallow once I realized it.

[@BBROXY940]

Tony doesn’t like himself, thus his mind only highlights all the bad things that are said about him. He takes things way too personally, like the car thing. It’s not that deep but he seems to be really offended by women for wanting a man with a car. He needs to log off the internet and get a therapist

[@DawnNa_22]

… And maybe find a mate who also doesn’t have reliable transportation so they can start off equally yolked. My issue is that men like him seem vested in making women lower their expectations instead of dating women who are already on the same page. If he can’t find women like that, either his standards are off or he should conclude that his mindset is the problem.

[@hazelbasil6451]

@@DawnNa_22 That part!!

[@BBROXY940]

@@DawnNa_22 🎯🎯🎯

[@Pbbbb]

@@DawnNa_22they feel entitled to more successful black women

[@marsha1758]

I agree. He also has many examples, from his own life, to counteract the negative narrative spinning in his head. The female comedian is just one example. She liked him despite his looks and income. But he was so caught up in her comedy bit(obviously said for laughs) that he couldn't see it.

[@AprilMac777]

As someone who has dated across the class gap multiple times (and across different class axes - degreed, income, etc.) and for multiple months being on the top and bottom of the gap IT DOES NOT WORK. It is hard and the emotional energy to compensate for a bruised male ego confronting that gap???? HARD

[@sheh.9163]

America has got to start having intelligent conversations about the amount of pint up anger, aggression, resentment, rage and unhealed/unstable emotional issues a lot men are walking around with. Specifically how it (the mental health aspect) manifests in black men.

[@HUeducator2011]

China and Japan are dealing with the same issues. Violence has against women has seen an uptick

[@sheh.9163]

@@HUeducator2011 we see how it manifests in yt men…they become increasingly anti-social, violent against women and children, and basically the profile of the typical mass shooter.

[@HUeducator2011]

@@sheh.9163 exactly! I’ll say the rise of trump and extremism is due to it as well. They blame Black people, radicalized people, and marginalized people for them no longer having access to the “American dream”

[@claireh8125]

@@HUeducator2011 so sad 😢

[@shaymalchione809]

I’m seeing more & more road rage cases resulting in murder. These men are walking around us filled with rage, armed, & ready to snap at any moment.

[@MakaykayLAMB]

Yep, the title for this is perfectly accurate. These men are looking for the daddies they never got and they essentially taking it out on us. It’s crazy this man calls himself a feminist but cannot see how patriarchy works in this society.

[@heyoka33]

That's the worst part, he doesn't realize that feminist propaganda wouldn't exist without the world man has tamed and keeps running ( infrastructure ( food, clothes, shelter, phones, computers).(😆)

[@CallHerTJ]

I don’t know if anyone has ever told you this, but you are an EXCELLENT interviewer. I really appreciate how your interview was centered around asking questions/delving deeper instead of making rebuttals/proving a point.

[@AwkwardBlackNomad]

as someone who dated a commercial plumber who was very very well-read, but didn't have a degree, it was HARD. at the time, i worked for attorneys and we would go to dinner parties with my colleague. he felt so insecure. we would always argue afterwards over small things. it didn't matter that i saw him as my equal and respected his opinion (i don't respect anyone, let alone a man) but no matter what i said or how i encouraged and poured into him, it wasn't enough. that was in my early 20s and that's why i can't date down. i don't want to feel bad for being intelligent or making money doing what i love.

[@KarmenAli]

I had a similar experience and would rather live alone with 30 cats than date down. 😅

[@Bee-gf8gn]

Because his PERCEPTION was greater than reality. That’s why dating men who haven’t dealt with their own shit can be so dangerous.

[@mewmew6158]

It just doesn't sound safe to date men who are so insecure.

[@Indiegirl007]

Are you a fellow Para???

[@MayMay-el4wg]

You stated “you don’t respect anyone, let alone a man”… so you’re saying you don’t respect your dad, granddad, or any of your male relatives. You don’t respect your boss, colleagues, friends significant others if they are men. Every man you come in contact with you have no respect for. Dating down is not the issue. The issue is your internal feelings towards men which is indicative of larger issues you’re not addressing. You wrote, “l don’t want to feel bad for being intelligent…” 😳 What initially attracted you to the plumber? You worked for attorneys, are you one? Four years in undergrad, and three in grad school (if you’re a lawyer) and you didn’t meet an eligible single man? Why would you take a plumber to dinner with lawyers? Were your colleagues aware of his profession? To be a commercial plumber means he was licensed, if not bonded. A skilled tradesman makes excellent money. Black craftsmen are rare these days due to all the loose living. Kids aren’t learning home training from workaholic moms or skilled trades from absentee fathers. 😏

[@tmarie69]

Can someone explain to me why a lot of men blame/are angry at their mothers who raised them, but not at their fathers who didn’t stick around? I’m genuinely asking because I truly do not understand this mindset.

[@Kmama801]

I would love to know as well!!

[@derinaries]

Because they blame their mother for their father leaving.

[@msnewsenior]

Children always love the absentee parent. It’s representative of what they were deprived of

[@tahtz20]

How do you want good relationships with Black women, but refuse to listen to them? You take it as being TOLD what to do or as a demand...fragile?

[@OGK-1414]

Thank you! Makes no sense.

[@heyoka33]

How are you in a man's face to begin with, unless you find value ( meaning he already has value) and having value knows the path he took( not needing your guidance). The man you're talking about isn't your first choice ( the successful man) and so you feel comfortable speaking to him in such a way, that he feels TOLD and demanded on, and then call him fragile.( 😆)

[@AP-vo2mp]

Right and then right after that he says he wants to meet in the middle.

[@courtneywitherspoon8584]

Mommy and Daddy issues will do that! He resents the women who raised him. He loves then, but he resents them so much so that he cannot listen to a woman in this case.

[@inathi1329]

It's very clear from watching Tony speak that he doesn't have an understanding of what women go through within patriarchy. His idea of the advantages that women are afforded in patriarchy seems to be based on a fantasy or what media tells us it's like being a women in our current society. I've bumped up against this logic quite a lot amongst the men that I've engaged with. They have no idea how women suffer under patriarchy, probably because 1. The truth of patriarchy and its harmfullness on all of us is blatantly denied and we're coerced into keeping the secrets of patriarchy by the system itself 2. Men want to view themselves as victims of women and dont want to be accountable for the way they show up in the world. They willfully dont want to acknowledge that thousands of years ago men created a patriarchal system (that most women now also endorse via internalized misogyny) that is now destroying society, men included Men will often complain about women using men for money while refusing to date regular women who are okay with living within their means and having a regular life. Of course a slay queen wants your money - that's why they're called that but men run after these women because they're chasing patriarchal ideals. They dont want you because you have a good heart. The person you dont want, is the one that would accept you as you are. Men dont want to hear it.

[@submissiveproviderstboth9485]

Average looking woman deserves money too 😂

[@lesajohnson8109]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and hypothesize that him working with homeless women who can get an endless supply of johns has skewed his perception.

[@maybemablemaples2144]

@@lesajohnson8109 and he don't want any of those women either. It's wild how he's his own saboteur and he's not aware.

[@honestly1970]

RIght - "Akon is in love with a stripper baby, not a girl about to get her next degree." Why you mad at me, cause you making bad choices?

[@cynthiag.5048]

Kim I wish you touched more on the fact that they don’t just want us to date down in terms of finances, they want us to date down in terms of emotional intelligence, intelligence in general, physical looks, ambition, and the works.

[@rejectionisprotection4448]

Tbh a woman is better off alone than to be with a man she isn't equally yoked with.

[@tylerhackner9731]

Thank you for this. Manosphere has auways radiated resentment to me

[@blakemorton6274]

yupp

[@beewest5704]

I once heard someone say they want to be women cause they think being a women is having everything handed to them. They think men have to toil for what they have/get so they are resentful & it turns into hatred.

[@Pbbbb]

They sound like Beyoncé from resentment “I know (other races of men) they are attractive but I was here first” 😂😂😂😂😂 they don’t like that the rabbit has the gun

[@sallyhemings2295]

@@Pbbbb THIS 😂🎉

[@lesliewit]

And let me add this, as a woman who is a social worker, who makes modest income, and that's a kind way of putting it. But who reads, who likes to do a little travel, I have to say that these Blue Collar men are not checking for me either. I find it highly amusing that it seems to be okay for a lot of black men to want to marry up, or date the Baddies, but are absolutely uninterested in women in their same socioeconomic range. While lambasting wealthier women for not looking their way. Don't believe the hype ladies! If you are a wealthy woman, protect your braid! Don't fall for these fools who are mad because rich beautiful women don't want to date their regular degular self. They are mad because they feel entitled to ALL women because they don't respect women as whole human beings.

[@kharynj6629]

Exactly. I am a social worker too. It’s a field full of women. Many of the whyte men I went to school with married classmates, the black men, however, never had time for women in the same field. They were checking for model types, then come whining after the models say they didn’t want a “broke” man.

[@aspiring...]

Such an eye opening discussion. People (particularly men) not choosing their aesthetic, cultural/class and financial counterpart is a huge part of the problem. Also, as someone who is intellectually curious I require this in a partner. Yes, class is not just finances. Cultural capital is a must.

[@aesanonymous8936]

This is why I tell people that my standards are never too high, cuz I meet my standards, I'd have to lower my standards to get somebody at my level which I will not do. 🤣

[@thespadestable]

@Aspring - "Financial counterpart"? Women love bragging about their gross yearly income, but what they leave out is the debt they are carrying. A woman earning $50k a year, is only her gross, that is not her net. Then when you take into account rent, car payment, student loan debt, credit cards, and other monthly expenditures, those take a huge chunk out of their monthly net pay. At the end of the day, if one is carrying a high debt to earning ratio, it does not matter how much she is earning per month, notably if the guy makes less, while at the same time is carrying a much lower debt to earning ratio, and actually has a decent windfall after all his expenses are paid. And it's obvious you are clueless about it also.

[@sweetchocolatesecret]

Kim is correct about class. I am a middle-class Haitian girl who went to private school my whole life, who is college educated, is looking towards getting my master's, and has been involved in my local political sphere. I have worries about being superficial, but in truth, I know that I do need someone who is equally yoked.

[@unerevuese]

Ooh Tony. 🙃 He sounds a lot of like the men in my family that I have argued with since I was a child. Also he completely did not have an argument against, "Women are just repeating patriarchal talking points" or why he was cool with Kevin Samuel saying the same thing the women told him. Its misogyny, sir!

[@keya3655]

You hit the nail right on the head with the class differences. I never really thought about it that way. I made having a college education a requirement of mine because it really was difficult trying to partner with someone who doesn’t like that I’m more knowledgeable. I often got insecurities projected onto me and accused of emasculating a man. It was a nightmare honestly

[@MakaykayLAMB]

100%. Some men start to feel emasculated when you have more education than them. When you’re able to have conversations about topics that they may not hav e any knowledge on.

[@kangel20]

He probably wants women out of his league but will dismiss or reject someone who is equally yoked in terms of appearance or even slightly above 🍵....and that's the real tea and what the manosphere is mostly about , in fact Rom Wills talks about this on his channel as well.

[@peachyfine13]

Loved this video and conversation. My biggest takeaway is that some black men are simply upset that black women are navigating the patriarchy better than them 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@agridulce3532]

Wow I never really thought about it in this way

[@hebe4703]

THIS.

[@phil4real996]

I also think that men like this need to realize that dating is difficult for most people in the US no matter how you look or your social economic status...and that there isn't some feminine force that is against him

[@bronzebomber814]

THANK YOU!!

[@moneylineparlay105]

No, it's difficult for MEN. dating is not difficult for women, stop it

[@phil4real996]

@@moneylineparlay105 based on what? You clearly didn't watch the video...lol

[@maybemablemaples2144]

@@moneylineparlay105 Kidology's video on thus very topic would definitely prove you wrong. I love how yall act like us average uglies got men lined up around the block. Dating is hard for everyone that isn't the standard and even then it still sucks. You really don't talk to a lot of women cause then you'd understand this.

[@NadiaPink]

He seems like he is a good man,just struggling about certain things.This makes me sad. And very proud of him. It takes bravery to put yourself out their like that. Good work Kim. I hope more stuff like this is out here.

[@sw01237]

As a woman who just got out of a relationship with a man who matched “thee” economic standard and was by all accounts “high value” based on the number of 0s…(though I never had an income standard or degree requirement) Kim!!! Your statement of “it might NOT be fine” is sooooooo true!! The gap in the level of education was soo pronounced. It affected every aspect of the relationship negatively, especially communication. The frivolous conversations of what books do you read…what outings…what do you like to do….is so underrated. We have to put much more stock in the responses to those questions. They will inevitably create a valley in what otherwise appears to be leveled ground. It is more to the relationship that exist between first date and partnered/marriage & paying bills. Also, being in therapy isn’t enough…having the education and willingness to utilize the tools provided in therapy is something we don’t discuss enough.

[@MakaykayLAMB]

Lol Shan Boodram did a video. And we all know Shannon is like the “quintessential mixed girl” standard, gorgeous girl. She did a video with a blonde haired white friend of just the reactions of them walking down the street in LA. the blonde girl got DOUBLE the responses as Shannon. So imagine what it’s like for the girlies who look like me and Kim. There’s also similar social expiriments that brown girls have done here in YT. I remember watching a girl who did a video on tinder matches. She used the same photos, just lightened her skin for the other page and got a significant amount of responses. And responses that weren’t just fetishizing.

[@rejectionisprotection4448]

Visit Starpuppy's channel. Her latest video is about the reactions she gets from BM and Non BM depending on how she does her hair. It's not surprising..........but still illuminating.

[@Carameldamour]

Tony is just looking for people to blame: first his grand ma, second his mum, then the hip-hop industry then women... Even his choice to be a public servant in a field that allocated him resources to educate after service to improve his odds. he choses to be broke and heavy... All that is a choice bruh! Your car got stolen, so you had no insurance to cover down payment for a new one? There is just some shit these guys say that screams irresponsibility and they don't even realize it. Calling out the obvious is not Fat phobic. Tony is unaware period!

[@WWJD-MIA]

I wholeheartedly agree.

[@beewest5704]

He sits in his victim narrative thats whybhe & guys like him are easy prey for these redpill grifters.

[@heyoka33]

@@beewest5704 Actually red pill would advocate for him not to be a victim, his frame is gynocentric, not advocated by red pill at all. Your understanding of red pill thought is limited because you wouldn't have made such a statement.(😆)

[@jeromehenry4484]

@@heyoka33 The biggest problem I see with Red Pill philosophy is it is centered on the Top 20% Income Earners and disregards the "bottom" 80%. Yet Top 20% Income Earning Males are too busy with their careers/businesses, family and social circles to be spending countless hours consuming Red Pill content. Red Pill actually appeals to the "bottom" 80%, it's wishful thinking that women are going to magically turn back time to 1950's, that's not the world or economy that we live in today. Most of these RP believers do not understand that they cannot afford a stay-at-home-wife/mother, it takes two incomes to possibly make it into the 3rd Quintile/Middle Class or 4th Quintile/Above Middle Class, just to afford a typical mortgage.

[@dajawnchriscross]

I agree with your point regarding social class differences being a huge problem in relationships. Most don’t understand the nuisances. They focus on finances only. “If I get rich, I made it!” It’s so much deeper than that. I went from a poverty stricken neighborhood from birth to about 14 years old. I then moved to the wealthiest community in my state. Graduated from the top HS, Ivy League Uni. As you can see from my 13 year old account name I was a Philly girl, a “jawn.” It was an extreme adjustment understanding the new culture I was pushed into and lots of learning and unlearning. Understanding my place and how to navigate this new construct to get what I wanted. It’s so much more than pay grades. I am fairly successful to my own standards but very successful to my friends and family and it’s all because my eyes were opened to game. The real game. When I attempted to date men from my original neighborhood or even those with that mindset it always ended in resentment towards me because they just don’t have the playbook. Only pages. It’s not about me thinking I am better than them or whatever. It’s literally about the access, the connections. Simple shit, how you like your steak. How you cut food at a dinner table, what college you graduated from. Your favorite spirit. I was completely cut down as a child dealing with this. Every insecurity I had surfaced - exposed. I can’t imagine an adult dealing with that. This shit runs so deep.

[@13579hee]

But why do you choose to let shit like that matter when it comes to dating people.

[@ladybug3380]

@@13579hee because your social class will affect your children wether you want it to or not.

[@13579hee]

@@ladybug3380 ghat wasn't my point

[@TomikaKelly]

You can learn the majority of the from KZbin.

[@ishaw500]

This guy reminds me of someone I dated in 2019. Never again. Beware of the social science, not for profit working, calm, well spoken manosphere dwellers. They have a tone and the language that can make you think that they are indeed on your side. They’ll persuade you to change your dating preferences.

[@waluigisim]

We need to be real about why women date at or above their level. It’s about security not only for herself, but also for her potential children. Birth control and safe abortions are very recent inventions and for most of human history, women have always risked pregnancy whenever engaging sexually with a man Pregnancy, birth, and caring for a infant are some of the most vulnerable states women will ever face. Having a male partner/father that is wholly invested in being present and providing for you/your children absolutely affects the quality of life your potential children will have. Additionally, (some) men who feel resentment for not being able to provide for or control the financial situation of his family have often proven to be dangerous for their families. Women have to be more selective about partnering because we (and our potential children) have more to lose by making the wrong choice

[@heyoka33]

Another manosphere argument, the word you're looking for is hypergamy (the broader definition), it encapsulates your entire thought.

[@waluigisim]

@@heyoka33 not sure what this has to do with the manosphere because the manosphere argues (and correct me if I am wrong) that modern women are “damaged” by having access to well paying jobs and reproductive control. Keep in mind women were systemically prevented from entering education and careers by men in the past not because women couldn’t do them, but because men had a vested interest in keeping women undereducated and poor to guarantee that women would have to rely on men while men used womens bodies as a resource for sex and reproduction. And it wasn’t a fair exchange because women were legally children under their husbands or fathers Now a days, women do not have to rely on husbands to have a comfortable existence and can do it for themselves. I chose to marry my fiancé because (aside from love) he is in the same tax bracket as me (so he is at my level financially), does as much around the house as I do, and will be an involved father when we decide to have kids. In the past, only his income would have been the factor since I would not be able to legally support myself All of that is to say, the average man today needs to step it up in both finance and domestic skills to pair with the average woman instead of whining that women should love them while having nothing to offer

[@heyoka33]

@@waluigisim Correction: it's not that a woman making money is a problem, the problem comes from a masculine attitude and the lack of femininity that comes along with it( making money). Reproductive control becomes a problem, when a man and a woman agree to have sex( not a child) and a woman changes her mind( on becoming pregnant) forcing a man to become a parent. While at the same time, saying forcing a woman to become a parent (R vs. W( abortion being the ultimate form of hypergamy)) is a violation of her rights. And this still doesn't change the first comment about hypergamy being the very expression of your posted thought.(😆)

[@heyoka33]

@@waluigisim You notice the last portion of your comment, says "average men",( need to step up). A survey by okcupid indicated that up to (80%) of men are considered unattractive by women. So the (20%) of men that meet your criteria don't have that as a problem( access to women) because of intense competition.( They have options). The funny part is that you know that the same qualities you find attractive in your husband, other women would find attractive as well( a competitive pool). Given your high standards, the options open to you would be limited ( most men not meeting your standards) and you not wanting to date down.(😆) All manosphere arguments(😆)

[@waluigisim]

@@heyoka33 y’all always be rolling out the stupid ok Cupid study lmaoo. Guess what, womens criteria for partnering is different from men. men primarily only care about womens physical looks when it comes to dating. Online dating is looks based because all you know about a person is based on the photos they upload. And let’s be real, men be taking and posting terrible photos online. A man’s looks are not the most important thing for women when determining attractiveness. So a man who a woman thinks is unattractive in a photo will become more physically attractive to her irl if she like his smell, voice, character, things you can only determine in real life, not behind a screen. Go touch some grass instead of whining that a study based on what men want in women doesn’t apply to what women want in men As for my fiancé being attractive to other women, of course he would be since most men don’t live up to what he has achieved. It’s slim pickings out here for women, and most accomplished women would rather be alone than gamble their health and safety with men that underachieve. Men are dropping out of school and workforce, factors that contribute to financial stability. Women are happier alone and can make fulfilling lives built on friendships unlike men who are miserable and sick when they don’t have a female partner. Average men are not competing with other men for women, men are now competing with the average woman’s wealth, peace and happiness she experiences while she is single.

[@Zikomo7]

"I'm not pretty enough to get into clubs", "If she doesn't have a car, why do I need one". Listen to a BM long enough and you'll hear him ask why he can't be a woman

[@laceyc412]

💯

[@destinylove1673]

And that’s really what it boils down to sis 💯💯

[@WWJD-MIA]

He wants to be taken care of. He also wants for a woman to settle. Truth be told I am 💯 sure he wouldn’t date a woman who acted and looked like him…he is not self aware and needs therapy for his continuous self-deprecating comments. Also poor comedian…you just come to make jokes and here he comes butt-hurt about your “jokes”

[@marsha1758]

Black men have to stop it with this "woe is me" rhetoric. Men are supposed to love the hunt. These men want the prey to lay down before them.

[@13579hee]

It's wild how you're twisting his words to serve a narrative. He brought up the way he looks because he was trying to say that, for most black women, he does not fit their standard of desirability. That was quite clear.. so it's evident that you aren't misunderstanding.. you're just twisting his words. Also when it comes to the car thing, he's 100% correct. No grown ass woman should be comfortable walking around and taking public transportation in her own personal life but being hopeful that she can somehow date a guy with a car who will drive her places. Keep relying on a man and you'll be back on the bus stop the minute he's done with you. A woman who does not own a vehicle needs to be shopping for a car, not a man.

[@anony1596]

omg I was with him on the car topic. Then he did the most with the Fogo de Chao comment. Why take it there? 😂 For a strong feminist, he made quite a bit of misogynistic commentary. "free meal" "get in the club off a smile" I wanna see who he's talking to for those stereotypes to apply 👀 "Trump of black men" omg it gets worse the more he goes

[@madant22]

What’s wrong with the trump of black men?

[@shekawashington1161]

They really think we got it that easy. Anything a man does for free expects a exchange of sex.

[@sheh.9163]

Exactly, black men can see the harm of Trump and his misogynistic, racist, sexist, toxic masculine views but couldn’t see it Kevin Samuels. It’s because They secretly resent yt men’s access to patriarchy and want it for themselves

[@uhhhhh4748]

Right? What percentage of women are trying to spend time with a dude they're not interested in for a free meal? Most of us can feed ourselves and personally if I couldn't, I would go to my family/friends way before I would go to a random man who would expect sex afterward. And what, maybe 10% of women can smile and cut the line to a club?

[@summeretry251]

@@uhhhhh4748 these kinds of guys think that living in community with people who care about you is getting a free meal. I got a "free meal" in my time of need from a friend, auntie, cousin, or neighbor because I was there for them in their time of need, not because of what I look like.

[@MusedMedia]

Buddy isn’t bad looking, is educated. If he got rid of this manosphere stance he would probably do a lot better. It comes off as a chip on his shoulder.

[@TomikaKelly]

Grooming and dressing better would probably help him out more.

[@msnewsenior]

He’s probably a 4 on the number scale and he needs to realize that. I seriously doubt he’s trying to partner with women on the same scale

[@tcg5427]

@@msnewsenior i was hoping she would ask him if he would date a woman that mirrored him...i know for sure the answer would be no

[@tiasadek6652]

I married down twice. Both times the men felt to use their upper hand to beat me down. Where they lacked financially and socially when used physical power to physically overpower me. With my second he used my child from the previous marriage to try to make himself feel bigger by physically abusing the child. It's hard to marry up when you're already pretty well off and marrying down is too risky so I've sworn off the whole thing.

[@korionterivers9995]

Damn. Sorry to hear that. Those guys didn’t deserve you. Smh. It takes a certain type of man who is confident in himself and what he does in order to be comfortable with his woman making more than him.

[@Kat3369]

I'm so sorry

[@Frey12]

It's a bit sad. I am hardly a ladies man, lots of trauma I am in therapy for. But the truth of the matter is we are sad and lonely and just want to be loved and have no idea how to handle it. That's literally where all this misogynior and misogyny comes from.

[@ladybug3380]

So instead of projecting that unto women, men must work on themselves.

[@Frey12]

@@ladybug3380 Yup. I mean I had a moment in my life when I was like that I would say 18-22. But when I started working on myself things got way better.

[@derinaries]

@frey. Nope. If that were the case, men would not take a womans' love for granted. Even the most despicable man will abuse the woman who settles for him. We are tired of it.

[@Frey12]

@@derinaries we aren't disagreeing. Just because a person wants love doesn't mean they know what do with it once they get it. Or how to treat someone who is giving it to them. I mean I once ended a friendship with reciprocity because I wasn't valuing that we were both giving. Mean while a friendship where a person only took from me and gave nothing back is still the one I miss more.

[@heyoka33]

You apparently think women as a group are concerned with your struggles ( they're not/ read the chat) they wait for the winners at the finish line. Your expressions of just wanting to be loved aren't looked at like you think, it reeks of weakness, a lack of confidence on your part and stabs at the very heart of a woman's desire for security ( drying the vjj right up/friend zoned). It's like someone breaking into the house and your woman jumps behind you, and you jump behind your woman, that relationship is over. Your anger is because you were told( probably) that girls we're sugar and spice and everything nice (they're not). You thought women would love you, like you loved your mother, nothing could be further from the truth. Your mother loves you for your survival, a woman loves you for her survival ( opportunistic love/ what have you done for me lately/so you need confidence and resources) it's the opposite of weakness.

[@zee-zm1io]

Thank goodness I tried the taking on men below my class level to understand never to do it again. 😅

[@erikapapi]

Also it’s pretty wild how these guys haven’t figured out that it’s their ugly energy that turns many women off from them. There are so many women who would live for a genuine, present, sweet, honest walk in the park, but these guys’ brand of “self help” doesn’t actually align them with flourishing in such an environment. They be so on edge, resentful, contrarian, and fake wise.

[@Kmama801]

I see that absent fathers have negatively affected both men and women in profound ways. This content is great, please let’s continue trying to understand each other!!👏🏾👏🏾

[@jaydubya9265]

Bingo. I’m fine leg are looking for s daddy. However some women HATE all men bc of their missing daddy 😂

[@leoniemills4918]

This is so mad cos the man literally had no money, no wife and no family. What is there to listen and aspire to?

[@rejectionisprotection4448]

You mean KS?

[@fizzychizzy]

I think the car comment is based on location. If you live in NYC, you don't need a car. Period. No one is ruling out people they are dating by whether you have a car. HOWEVER, Kim and this gentleman live in cities where having a car is extremely important. So, of course, the women in those cities see this item as a deal breaker. As for the rest of the conversation, I think the community is suffering from a lack of fathers. No one wants to take the blame for why they are not in the home, but the sons are growing up and resenting the women that brought them up regardless of whether their fathers were deadbeats or not or their mothers were cruel or not.

[@Blahgirl283]

Getting taken out on a date is not just a free meal. You can't just call up random men to feed you - I mean depending on the type of person you are, maybe? But nothing is ever truly free. There is always some kind of expectation whether emotional, financial or physical eventually. Unless ya'll are just friends or family.

[@TomikaKelly]

Not just that, but double standards exist EVERYWHERE in life yet he only complains about the ones that DONT benefit HIM. Most women cannot sleep with whomever they want whenever they want the way men can; is he going to complain about how the patriarchy created that problem as well ?

[@autumntaylor4630]

So "interesting" and convenient that he completely leaves out how most men also believe paying for your meal is transactional for something else but the manosphere guys also hate SW

[@rejectionisprotection4448]

@@autumntaylor4630 ........and treat them like s--t, whilst begging for prostitution to be legalised (in the States).

[@TheTeresamori]

I think his generational trauma is something he needed to work through in a healthy way and he didn’t now he hates women.

[@arasharfa]

I would love to see you interview queer people about relationship issues, polyamorous people, gays, lesbians, non-binary people. We have alternative perspectives to these issues I'm sure a lot of straight people could learn a lot from.

[@goldenhourg]

THIS. Straight dating in general is the trenches and the REAL convo of the future is going to be women AND MEN abandoning hetero bs all together for queer relationships.

[@maybemablemaples2144]

@@goldenhourg yup not even saying that we gays don't have problems but the cishets need some real love and acceptance and they ain't getting it. It's tew much.

[@wildeonsight]

15:30 "...when i have had discussions in relationships i felt i had to back down from my stance so I don't lose access to sex..." That is what he is really worried about.

[@celinened7256]

When the woman at the soho house said you’re not dusty it’s because you have a purpose. Many men without means are there because they have no purpose, no goal but they want to lead and have a submissive woman. And for the argument that women have the ability to date for meals… the data suggests that that’s something men are more likely to be interested in. Woman are more educated and earning more these days. We realized that nobody was coming to save us, so we saved ourselves. 👩‍🎓👩‍🎓👩‍🎓

[@TheKaylaAli]

I can watch convos like this all day long! Great discussion!

[@ThemisThoth]

Interview is beautiful… Not finished as I will watch it live. You are always welcome to join 💕. Thank you for this amazing content.

[@tiffanyjohnson6872]

I will rewatch it with ya

[@ctau410]

The more I hear these men speak the more I understand why it’s majority of the woman filing for divorce. The fact that he acknowledged he does not follow valuable advice from women simply because they are women and he rather implement that same advice simply because it’s coming from a man is just sad.

[@jay1603]

The dating down conversation reminds me of that storyline from crazy rich Asians where the businessman was dating this really beautiful, really kind heiress who was bending over backwards to accommodate him and still ended up cheating on her bc of his intense resentment towards their class gap.

[@Vxruxxss]

I am across a Reddit post of a 45 year old man that never built a career or wait a degree. He was complaining about his circumstance and how resentful he felt of his wife although she was supportive of him. She makes 120k btw. Everyone was telling him to be grateful that he wasn’t homeless and has a partner that’s supportive. SMH feel so bad for her

[@kdennis2461]

He wasn't really ridiculous tbh. I empathize with him. I went in thinking he was gonna be totally unreasonable. He really wasn't. He's just a grown boy who is craving a dad.

[@madant22]

You a smart one. You not like the rest of them. I hope they don’t call you mammy n pick me for this comment.

[@bronzebomber814]

Sis u right! He's mad that he wasn't shown how to be a man by a man. He feels hen pecked as my Nana used to say by t he women but that's his father's fault ..daddy dropped the ball momma picked it up not perfect ..but not her fault.

[@125loopy]

@madant22 that's so patronizing. "You a smart one" Ugh. Tony is 35 years old and has more access to mental health resources than a lot of Americans because of his work. He would rather blame women. A lot of black people ha e daddy issues due to absent fathers. He chose a toxic replacement figure - that's on him.

[@Black.hole.]

Agreed, he was very respectful, and able to concede certain arguments when it made sense. He doesn’t fully understand the implications of how the patriarchy affects him negatively but he also stated that KS is super concentrated and he basically takes what he needs and leaves the rest. He could benefit from therapy and a mentor or a very supportive community group but other than that, I really enjoyed his perspective. The analysis after the conversation is throwing me a little bc it’s coming across a bit cruel? Idk, maybe I’m being too sympathetic to him lol

[@heyoka33]

@@bronzebomber814 So you blame the victim ( he's the one hen pecked) and not the pecker ( pun intended)(😆)

[@TirraOmilade]

whew. Thank you for this, Kim. You are the best. 🙏🏾💜 As a Gen X...married for 28 years it is becoming apparent that our people need to continue to heal. It's a lot of misfiring and misunderstanding. So many good people single because we need better relationship skills, more clarity on values and continued personal development. But these kinds of conversations are good and can carry the community far as long as we all stay open.

[@melanatedroyalty3877]

I forgot who said it, but I read once that a part of manhood or becoming a man, usually involves the boy "bucking" the system and in the home, the father is the 1st authoritarian (system) to be bucked. Since most BM come from an epidemic of absentee fatherism, the mother who cares for the child then becomes the "system" bc she has no choice but to wear both hats. These boys usually grow to have disdain for their mothers and later all BW because of this dynamic. Also, the last time I saw BM call out their absentee fathers was when Will Smith cried on that Fresh Prince of Bel-Air episode when his dad didn't show up. Smh Ladies protect your energy, hearts, and homes from these extremely lost souls.

[@erinroquemore8247]

I wish him much love and healing in his journey.

[@nicire24]

He was like I’m not into patriarchy and then proceeds to make claims deeply rooted in patriarchy. The statement that took me out was when he said: “Women have been my biggest supporters but I can’t take what they say to me as not being criticism”. Like SIR you can’t hear what these women who you said support you and take their advice because he doesn’t respect them. What’s so interesting about this though is this is how plenty of men function, where they realize and acknowledge that women support them but don’t actually respect those women who have and often continue to pour into them.

[@chuckc662]

Dating shouldn’t be a priority when you’re 35 and out of a car. You gotta have yourself together in some way at 35.

[@goldenhourg]

Exactly. But the issue isn’t dating- it’s loneliness. This is one lonely dude.

[@leelee6946]

Great commentary and thank you for the book recommendations. This was a thoughtful and balanced discussion . I saw alot of issues with Tony’s assessment of the dating game. You have said this in the past , men, perhaps black men in particular, never seek out their counterpart to date. As you said, his idol set criteria for men that exclude many of them as viable partners; and many of these guys can’t see the problem. The women who would appreciate him isn’t one he would be interested in. Interesting.

[@heyoka33]

Fit (in shape and beautiful) , feminine and cooperative (women) or are you referring to something or someone else?

[@curiousboy88]

I genuinely have felt for this guy and have a lot of empathy for him. I believe in a messed up way saw a father figure in KS. Granted, as we age, we start to discern what’s wrong with our parents thought process. Thus, pick & choose what we want to takeaway from what they say. He can only place blame on the parent who raised him as she’s the one who is present in his life. The experience of being raised in a fatherless home is such a nuanced issue. I feel for everyone involved.

[@hymnodyhands]

Thank you for providing this interview to the public ... it explained many things about the state of BM in the absence of their fathers. Tony was able to express himself clearly, and although I cannot say I agree with his viewpoints, I was able to understand where he and many men like him are coming from. You did a magnificent job interviewing him.

[@rn2787]

It is so telling that they always say a woman can get this or that, but do a few free dinners really make up for the wage gap? Does it make up for the constant sexual harassment that women and girls face? Does it make up for the higher risk of sexual assult and domestic violence? Does it make up for the less than 1% conviction rate of sexual violence? Yeah, I could theoretically go get a sugar daddy and give him my body and attention for money, BUT that is labor. Everything has a price. Kevin suffered from the idea that women didn't face issues in the dating scene, but they do. Just because you don't have the same issue doesn't mean that we don't have some kind of issue. However, I can't stress enough that nobody owes you anything. If you don't want to date someone for any reason, that's your right, and you don't have to justify that. Your body, time, and energy are not public property.

[@Beah837]

He sounds like he has childhood trauma he needs to work through stemming from the women/girls around him growing up. He's used to abusive language but he'd rather hear it from a man because it's less triggering

[@jensendsflowers]

So well said, especially 2nd sentence. I think it could apply to many men.

[@DizzleBii]

I rarely witness men read, research, and educate themselves on how to navigate the areas in their lives in a more productive way. I've seen many men blame others for their shortcomings. It's not that hard or serious to reflect and research. It's like inner work is too much, but it's not even a that deep. Thankfully, I saw my own father do such reading and learning, and the outcome of his pursuit to improve -success. These men (specifically Black men) are out there. When he finds you, know what you have.

[@townsendadrianarmani]

First of all, can we get into how STUNNING you look!?! That melanin is melanin-NING! Secondly, you betta spit truth mama!

[@Carameldamour]

Dating is a number game just like finding a job... But men want to have to be validated by all the option to feel something. You just need 1 person , just like you just need 1 job offer.

[@heyoka33]

Only women need one option, a man with multiple women, all the women know who the father is, a women with multiple men, no one knows who the father is, and no man is going to take care of another man's children, it only works one way.(😆)

[@FateOfTheElephant]

I had this conversation with an ex. You only learn how to be masculine/feminine by listening the the needs and wants of your partner. Another man isn't going to teach you what women want. My last relationship was the most traumatizing relationship I've ever been in but its also taught me the most about negotiating relationships.

[@heyoka33]

That's so foolish and untrue, you apparently haven't lived life long enough to know the mouth can say what it wants. Many a woman has mentally left a relationship with a man and still kept up a conversation, her body still walking around the house. This is how you get many women filing for divorce and the man having no clue, thinking everything was alright.

[@FateOfTheElephant]

@@heyoka33 The essence of my statement is that failures of relationships come down to an inability of people to negotiate the terms of the relationship. If someone doesn't see your worth, negotiations will be a nightmare and we all need to learn when to walk away early within the negotiations if someone doesn't see your worth, you'll be stuck in the negotiations phase for years at a time. Edit: after reading my comment again I see that it was an incomplete thought but that's what I meant when I said my last relationship taught me a lot about negotiating relationships... I spent way too long trying to negotiate with somone who didn't see my worth.

[@heyoka33]

@@FateOfTheElephant The trouble is.most women are hypergamous( to marry up) ,.which is a position of weakness to begin with and not a good foot to start a negotiation off on. The other issue is any man worth your time and energy is also attractive to other women, and hence has options ( access to other women).( Bad for negotiations). Another problem is that beauty and fertility ( 30-> chromosomal damage (35) geriatric pregnancy (40) spontaneous abortions) are transitory, so a woman has a small window, within to negotiate, with a man.( Assuming she and he want children). Still I wish you the best

[@FateOfTheElephant]

@@heyoka33 it's still a negotiation nonetheless, it doesn't matter if it seems unfair to you all relationships are a negotiation. Sit with your elders and you'll realise that. You can't get everything so you need to know what you are willing and not willing to accept.

[@heyoka33]

@@FateOfTheElephant It doesn't seem unfair to me at all, just an observation. All things being equal and since they never are( equal), we're in agreement

[@GreenNectarines]

I was largely socialized to be a woman but have come to the conclusion that I am nonbinary as an adult. Funny thing is I grew up with a father and you know what he said? He always told me to avoid broke men. To avoid men who can't afford to build with me. There is a component of this that is survival related because even though he provided for my mother and I, we had nothing when he passed away. No planning. No insurance. Nothing. Now I'm an adult. My fiancé is a woman. She pulled up with her own car, a degree, two more degrees on the way, zero student loan debt, and her own house. While I'm marrying her out of love, I also understand that it takes a lot to build a life with someone. I went down the same career path as him and after getting my Masters in Community Psychology, I'm getting one in Public Health. Non-men are moving upward *because* of the reality of this system. I was taught at a young age that capitalism can drown you so don't go at it alone. You expect me to bring my success to a card table? Unless you are actively deconstructing this system that you admit is the issue, I don't want to hear these bitter ass gripes against BW!

[@Dangerous_Peace]

It's the guilting bw for requiring the basics for me...Chile you have patience and you kept it so professional. Respect. The idea of being questioned on why I want you to have a damn car...🙄🤦🏽‍♀️😩