The Most Bad Faith Trans Debate I've Ever Had

🔴 Website - www.vaush.gg/
💵 Patreon - / vaush
👕 MERCH - merch.whitefore.st/
😎 SIGN UP TO CANVASS! www.vaush.gg/map
🌟 Other Socials 🌟
⭐️ Main Channel - / vaush
👀 3rd Channel? - / @vaushvidya
🐦 Twitter - / vaushv
👾 Twitch - / vaushvidya
📸 Instagram - / vaushv
🔵 Facebook - / vaushvidya
🎵 TikTok - / vaushvidya
🎙Podcast - anchor.fm/vaush
#debate #politics #trans

[@truthbetold8233]

This person's whole argument seemed to be - "but what if a troll shows up, pretends to be trans, and tricks you into treating them decently?!"

[@sparki9085]

Oh no! Not treating people nicely! The horror!

[@Alexa-Raine]

@@sparki9085 I wonder how deep this goes. Do you think men are desperate to share attraction and sexual innuendos, whist maintaining a "no homo" atmosphere of distinctly hetero men. Like, sexual talk, and the like, without the intent of having sex, happens all the time in most social circles. But these men's masculinity is so fragile that any ambiguity causes them to sink inward, unable to mete out basic adult human communications, for fear of reprisal. Isn't that the InCel community?

[@Kyle-vg2io]

"Haha, you thought I was a decent, reasonable human being! Joke's on you, I'm not!"

[@colemix1852]

Literally

[@Feathers73]

Well if you listen to my argument i ask if a cisgender man who has no desire to be a woman says “i am a woman” would they be a woman and vaush said “yeah they would be as equal to a woman because they say they are”. I then say in his view steven crowder, a cisgender man with no desire to transition but said he was a woman, would be as equal to like leela alcorn. I’m sorry but i can’t be transphobic like vaush

[@katyasabourin7906]

"what if they're a cisgender trans person??" I'd just hang up at this point. What the actual f--k was this guy trying to say

[@woobiefuntime]

I could see someone saying that unironicly

[@gayjebus4079]

He was just being a transmedicalist while trying to really avoid coming across as a transmedicalist. From what I understand the definition of a transmedicalist is someone who believes that in order to be trans you must want and get the surgery required

[@stevenbryant1011]

It has the same energy as "fully semi automatic weapon"

[@abyssGazerTV]

They basically want Vaush to account for the possibility of someone claiming to be trans without actual intent of being trans, which is unprovable and impossible.

[@woobiefuntime]

@@gayjebus4079 that would be a big part of it.

[@tlgAlaska]

Took him a whole half hour to pull out the ol' helicopter-joke. I'm surprised he didn't burst a blood vessel from this kind of restraint.

[@caixiuying8901]

as someone who did the helicopter joke for 6 years before I realized, holy shit I actually hate being gendered as male or female, I quite literally pulled a 180 on the vast majority of my conservative beliefs at the time and like 9/10 years later turns out I'm trans LMFAO but no I totally get what you're saying, 95% of the people doing the helicopter joke are actually assholes and the 5% leftover are just self-hating trans people trying to cope with it by being edgy I don't an ounce of Vaush (and many other debaters) patience

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

Fun fact: The first attack helicopters were trans males! Context: Military vehicles with cannons/rockets/"ordinance" are designated "male" while unarmed and small-caliber-only vehicles are designated "female". The first ever "attack helicopters" were transport HUEYs retrofitted with rockets and larger guns during the Vietnam War - so "female" transport choppers got "surgery" to become "male" attack choppers.

[@richardarriaga6271]

Someday people like him will mount a rotor to their back "to own the libs".

[@mikethegoo]

​@@sluttyMapleSyrupalright, so it's now a good thing? Guys, we can reclaim the joke now!

[@ax7160]

Vaush definitely overdosed on patience pills before this debate. There’s was like 9 different times where it woulda been completely acceptable to just end the call

[@JSmusiqalthinka]

It's still good to be patient when you're in Vaush's position. On a public platform, it's better to be patient than pouncing on every instance of bad faith. Being patient makes you look more secure and sure, and thus more convincing to any given audience. Also it lets your opponent gain more rope to hang themselves with, as the saying goes.

[@queenbean7071]

​@JSmusiqalthinka especially with someone like this who whilst they had really bad views they gave vaush time to respond. The other guy looked really bad here

[@Cumdown]

Yeah, im 15 minutes in and paused to check below the line. Im not listening to another loop of not understanding the difference between someone pretending they are another gender to make a point, and someone feeling they are another gender

[@cctomcat321]

I really don't see the point beyond easy dunk content... The actual "issue" from a conservative perspective is basically non-existent. In other words, these debates always end up in a range from obvious grifter to a disingenuous troll. This is all just some game, whether it's about a bag or about personal sh*ts and giggles. And we _know_ all this culture war nonsense is a smokescreen. It just feels like continuing to engage, at this point, is just letting that screen stick. "It's still highly debated."

[@somewhat-blue]

@@cctomcat321Eh, I get why you’d say that, but I’m non-binary and basically every time I bring up my gender in public, it becomes an enormous conversation about gender ontology. Most of those people are being completely earnest, half of them seem petrified of offending me or hurting my feelings, and I want to be able to help them understand. Maybe it’s just because I’m on the autism spectrum, but for me, it’s useful to have heard someone have nine million variations on this conversation because it means I’m prepared to actually respond to the things people say (and don’t have to use very specific and personal experiences of mine to do it).

[@HistorySucksV]

The second I heard “culturally Catholic” I knew I was bouta prepare for a shitshow 😂

[@BL0XB0T]

Yeah it’s weird. If you’re born into Catholicism that’s not your fault and you’re probably a decent bloke. If you become a Catholic or adopt their beliefs by your own volition it raises some red flags.

[@mogscugg2639]

nah the second you hear "culturally catholic" you call the nearest preschool and tell them to keep an eye ou

[@katakesh8566]

​@@BL0XB0Tnever trust converts. And if Liberation Theology and/or anarchism, socialism, humanism, and anti-sectarianism arent at least done unconsciously; keep a close eye on them. Religious heat can be constructive but it's breaks on the shores of application

[@bravo561]

@@katakesh8566Can you elaborate on the liberation theology part? I’d say I’m a proponent of liberation theology as I’m a Christian but reject all the evangelical conservatism white supremacy.

[@Molten-Throne]

@@BL0XB0Treally? It’s a red flag? I’m an atheist, satanist, degenerate and I wouldn’t call that a red flag. I think people want purpose and religion gives it. I disagree with them obviously. But it’s not a red flag just by choosing to be catholic. With how many people I’ve met this piece of info gives me nothing to go off. Being catholic isn’t bad necessarily. Being Muslim isn’t bad necessarily. Being British however is. The point is I wouldn’t say something I’d a red flag even if they disagree with you, or take a ideology you disagree with.

[@pivs]

I love when a video is titled like "This was the most vile, evil, and insane debate I have ever had", and the first words are like "good morning!"

[@james_with_a_z]

Well to be fair, these freaks always start with the pleasantries and then after the debate starts they just go mental and at the end try to act like it was civil so they can do phony bipartisanship

[@benderisgreat5059]

How else do things start? You don’t know it’s gonna be a shit show right off the bat. Well, I guess you could know depending on who you’re debating.

[@ashelyfrankow149]

Basic respect is important to have, even when talking to scummy people

[@acetrainer5564]

Yeah, don't be fooled by politeness.

[@lexilang5011]

Vaush sucks.

[@krelekari]

For those who dont know Leelah Alcorn (he pronounced it wrong a couple times) She was a highly respected tumblr trans teen girl who after intense bullying from all angles threw herself infront of a semi-truck on an interstate back in 2013-2014ish because her mother was highly resistant to her finding herself and starting their transition journey up to and including sending her to christian conversion ""therapy"", cutting her communication and isolating them, as well as her mother refusing to treat them as a woman after her death and using her deadname all the while with disrespect... still is a highly tragic event and highly memorable as a trans person who grew up with tumblr Her loss was a huge morale hit in the trans tumblr community in a time where typing trans into google would autofill to the most recent trans death news because thats all people would look up that was trans related was our suicides or murders to the point where even getting information on how to start transitioning, HRT, or really anything helpful for trans folks was incredibly hard to find😔 It was the kind of thing that burns the event into your mind to forever remember the injustice they went through May she rest in peace and be remembered forevermore

[@Alexa-Raine]

I intend to write a will. Banning my psychotic family from: Dead naming me Putting my old body in the ground to rot Putting up a torture device to mark my grave ✝️ Having a cult procession reading from their cult book Attempting to sell my "soul" to their cult diety(mostly just making good on a previous deal made when they mutilated my genitals at birth, dunked me underwater against my will several times, and brainwashed me into saying I would give my "soul" to jesus)

[@mygaykaliphate]

Minor edit: It's Alcorn not Acorn

[@wilhelmkreis6578]

Disgusting that this shitbag cited her death as a virtue signal and then turned around and made the attack helicopter argument

[@Feathers73]

May she rest in piece

[@krelekari]

@@mygaykaliphate tyty for the correction 🙇‍♀

[@lillizb]

How Vaush could answer the same question dozens of times in a row is a true show of patience.

[@summerlovinxx]

it's the autistic innate inability to not be stubborn. I will repeat myself 500,000 times if it means it finally clicks, thankfully Vaush was able to recognize that they were going nowhere fairly quickly.

[@dualdragoncomics1611]

As someone who decided to ruin their life by getting a bachelors in sociology; I find people like this frustrating.

[@sheeshkebabz6024]

Why did it ruin your life?

[@MsUmbyy]

@@sheeshkebabz6024 You tend to see the world differently when you have a sociology degree (ex: the first thing you learn in SOC101 is how to examine the world with a "sociological imagination") and trying to teach someone your worldview is long and arduous when its based on several years of education and extracurricular experiences.

[@mechanomics2649]

You don't need a bachelors in sociology to find people like this frustrating.

[@Jaym1223]

@@MsUmbyyalso u dont make that much bank

[@arcanefire7511]

​@@MsUmbyy🤓

[@Sb_747]

Dudes entire argument is “what if someone lies?”.

[@user-cn7mx3gf7x]

And? It clearly is too much for you to handle

[@AnarchoAngel]

​@@user-cn7mx3gf7xwhy does the concept of people being able to lie become a problem only when talking about trans people?

[@user-cn7mx3gf7x]

@@AnarchoAngel because your made up rule that no one can question a persons personal identity

[@orangenostril]

​@@user-cn7mx3gf7xThe point is that can apply to _every_ social label. If I say I'm a metalhead, I could be lying and have never listened to metal in my life.

[@user-cn7mx3gf7x]

@@orangenostril and? I wasnt the one who came up with questioning personal identity a bigotry. That's you gender cultists

[@fjordojustice]

How can he ask "well if self ID is true doesn't that mean a cis man can be a trans woman?" 10 goddamn times and still feel smug and clever about it? He could at least come up with more disingenous questions to ask instead of going back to the same one over and over again.

[@MerelvandenHurk]

I truly don't understand why these people keep thinking that self-ID means there's no difference between men and women anymore. Yeah of course there is: whether or not they identify as men or as women (or another gender of course). They pretend it's a tautology (it isn't) or that you can't identify as something without knowing what that thing is (as if we've completely ripped the word "woman" from the societally constructed gender, which we haven't, you can rely on your sociocultural knowledge of what women are), etc. etc. etc. It's exhausting. Actually, while writing this, I'm starting to suspect that the reason it stumps them is because they cannot handle the idea of women looking like men or men looking like women (because that's what happens when someone self-ID's and hasn't socially or medically transitioned (yet)). They think that someone who looks, talks and acts like Vaush *categorically* cannot be a woman, and the notion that they *can* fundamentally breaks their rigidly gendered worldview and they literally can't comprehend how that works. It's just a manifestation of how regressive their own gendered norms are.

[@MagusMirificus]

This dude has been in the comments on the VOD trying to keep the debate going; I actually thought he might have been legitimately trying to understand our side of the issue and that Vaush had been hasty in calling him bad faith and booting him from the call, but I realized very quickly he was just trying to rile us up and get attention. He's not interested in understanding or responding to any point we make, he just interprets every argument in the most literal and uncharitable way possible so he can keep acting like he's confused and we're not explaining the issue. He's either a troll or he's too stupid to be worth engaging with; I suspect he former because he never seems to be offended by our exasperation and just always innocently replies with "What? What did I say that was wrong?"

[@crazygrape]

Sounds like pretty classic sealioning

[@MagusMirificus]

Also thanks to Vaush for teaching me that maxim: that people who don't get upset, no matter how morally bankrupt you pronounce them to be based on their arguments, are always insincere. Even the most levelheaded honest actor will get at least a little incensed when you start accusing them of enabling fascism; anyone who consistently just laughs that off and goes "Okay, but seriously though, back to what I was saying" is not earnestly engaging with the discussion and is just treating it like a scene they're playing the opposing character in.

[@noaha6185]

VOD?

[@BullofCrete]

@@noaha6185 The recording of the full stream.

[@rudeboyjohn3483]

All part of the Far Right Playbook. Exhaust and frustrate.

[@transitorri7794]

Called this one like 3-4 minutes in to it. Remarkable how in these "debates" they just keep shifting from topic to topic or fact to fact, and never actually declare a position and defend it. Why? Because it's indefensible.

[@livinginahotdog1563]

Yeah these kinda debates are the most frustrating regardless of topic. I think most of us had an interaction like that. They make a claim, then when it doesn t hold up make another unrelated one and so on. And if you refute 9 diffrent points but don t have an instany reply to the 10th one (bonus if it s a really vague claim or some statisic you can t check immeditaly) they think they won

[@sonicbelmont300]

I'm so happy Vaush called out that you can literally hear him smiling through his smug, insincere bullshit. I'm actually surprised someone in chat didn't know how Vaush could tell, it was painful to listen to. I appreciate Vaush being patient though, really spelled out just how obviously bad faith this pimple of a person was.

[@mikethegoo]

I mean, maybe it's my autism, but like... I know this guy is a transphobe, but honestly, I have found this one of, if not the most bearable discussion with an actual transphobe about this I have ever watched and heard... So like... This does put it into perspective. Or maybe I still have to kinda find how this ramps up about three quarters in... Or I can recognize it now you said it, IDK.

[@Alex-0597]

@@mikethegoo The debate heats up because the rando transphobe doesn't listen to points. They've made the exact same incoherent point "but what if a cis trans man with no desire to transition..." several times and gotten it corrected several times. So Vaush starts cracking down because the transphobe just isn't listening

[@ScoopMeisterGeneral]

​​@@mikethegooI think the reason it might seem more bearable is because the caller isn't being explicitly hateful. They're incinserely pretending to to be a trans ally who's "just asking questions", but if you didn't pick up on the insincerity then I can see why you might find this guy relatively tolerable.

[@Feathers73]

@@ScoopMeisterGeneral why do you think i’m being disingenuous? I like say janet mock, amelio robles avila and other trans people are valid as their gender. I’m like legit confused about what i said that was transphobic or gave off this vibe.

[@Ferjermi]

This lobotomized individual kept asking "what if a cis man lied to you about being a woman?" and when Vaush answered, he's like "oh so the cis man's gender identity of being a woman isn't valid?" Vaush tried to catch him in this BS but dude wouldn't have it. "As a cisgender man who doesn't want to transition..." Literally what did he mean by that? Cis people don't transition. They aren't trans. I don't know whether it's more bad faith or just more raw, unfiltered stupidity.

[@boianko]

Assuming he wasn't anti-trans and hiding his power level, it makes it sound like he doesn't consider someone trans unless they've transitioned well enough to his liking.

[@wafflespersonal4911]

It was literally just the dude trying to get a clip on a gacha. The whole "oh..interesting" is very telling

[@itisnotsosimple]

He came across to me as more stupid than bad faith.

[@Cruizinelli12]

He struck me as a trans med type. Or he could just be stupid.

[@mewmere6069]

​@@Cruizinelli12same thing!!

[@wigglybacon2250]

I have known a middle aged trans woman for years online, and she’s only recently begun socially transitioning, and looking into medical transition. Up until the past year or so she said she would never transition because she did not want to lose her wife and kids, but I guess it finally came to the point where she had to. During that time where to everyone who knew her irl she was a cis straight man in a completely heteronormative nuclear family, she was still a woman, even without the pronouns, the social or medical transition, it was still who she was. Self ID is enough, no action needed.

[@lisahiselius6539]

This!!!

[@gallae]

11:19 it's crazy how in so many of these debates the transphobe's understanding of gender is no more nuanced than "uhhhh girl wear dress and mascara. man wear pant."

[@Feathers73]

What? I said a cisgender man wouldn’t be a woman but a transgender butch woman would be a woman? Why are you putting words in my mouth instead of engaging

[@artloverivy]

@@DaveBadgerYeah, and that concept is way too much for conservatives who want rigid order as opposed to real freedom.

[@Feathers73]

@@artloverivywhat does that have to do with the topic?

[@artloverivy]

@@Feathers73 The original comment was about the lack of logic from transphobes. I was expanding on their inability to wrap their heads around people exercising their freedom.

[@Feathers73]

@@artloverivyso you’re just randomly time stamping a part then randomly saying transphobes and conservatives are bad? Genuinely asking like i’m super lost on your train of thought here

[@sullen2420]

I don't think this caller ever intellectually got past the word "sincere." Every counter example he brought up....the "cig gender trans person", or the "helicopter" thing....all would be examples of insincerity.

[@MrOpiumDubs]

My thought exactly, well formulated ❤

[@Michael-uh8kw]

Haha I just left a comment before I read yours with the exact same examples. The impossible cisgender-trans contradiction and baby helicopter. Both are insane, make no sense, and give credit to them acting in bad faith.

[@darrenosborne8252]

This caller is an ineffective communicator and thank you for Vaush for the validation. I'm a transwoman who doesn't have access to gender affirming care and can't medically transition. Because of this I typically say I'm non-binary. It's nice for someone to stand up for me. Personally, I like Simone De Beauvoir's definition of woman as "not man".

[@cypress2647]

I think its less about self ID and more about 'are you making an honest effort'. Its not your fault you dont have access to medical transition currently, you are different from the people who just self ID as something but make 0 effort to be anything like that thing.

[@darrenosborne8252]

@@cypress2647 Me stating I'm a trans woman in the comments is sharing something very personal. Publically, I want to say I'm non-binary because I don't want to have that conversation with anyone (my healthcare/my pronouns). For me I'm in the closet about being a trans woman because I just can't deal with it. "Putting forth effort" to fit someone else's definition of a woman is not a requirement for me. I don't correct pronouns and I use the men's room. Me being a woman is my cross to bear.

[@blasianking4827]

​@@cypress2647but then how do you determine if someone is making an honest effort? This whole gatekeeping transness thing is just gender essentialism but slightly worker, you're doing the "you're a woman so you need to do x y and z" thing that every progressive needs to try and get rid of

[@duncandownham4726]

​@@darrenosborne8252 Well, everyone has different standards and there is no way to know how to conform to every random person, and possibly even impossible due to possible contradictions amount different opinions. In a perfect world, you would not need to be in the closet. But the world isn't perfect, and your wellbeing is more important than trying to constantly trying to adhere to the standards of others. Hopefully you get to a place where you can be yourself freely. Either way, you do you

[@darrenosborne8252]

@@duncandownham4726 Thank you for the sweet words. That means a lot to me.

[@yan_dj]

I don't know why I'm laughing, the way they keep going back to "cisgender man with no desire to transition..." no matter what argument they were at like a running joke, Vaush has the straightest face and they're both so calm despite how goofy this whole conversation sounds to me 😂 Manray meme energy

[@Wendy_O._Koopa]

At first I thought the man simply had a fundamental misunderstanding about the meaning of "cisgender," but as the conversation droned on it became more and more apparent that he was simply sealioning Vaush.

[@wikiboy63]

No you don’t understand it’s all about the DESIRE!! No seriously, it took vaush way too long to understand how stupid what he was trying to say was lol

[@caixiuying8901]

I try so hard not to engage with people (and fail very often) because I don't even have 1% the patience Vaush has

[@user-uu2cj9ct3j]

Same. Can’t believe he doesn’t realize that of course cisgender men have no desire to transition, because, wait for it, his assigned gender matches his identity.

[@kasane1337]

@@user-uu2cj9ct3j "So when I randomly utter the words 'I'm a woman' while high on shrooms this means I'm just as much a woman as [enter name of attractive trans woman here]???"

[@markharrison6498]

He lost me when he suggested Stephen crowder doesn’t have insecurities with regard to his masculinity and gender

[@techyn8502]

People claim that they can “want McDonald’s”, but what if a person who doesn’t want McDonalds says they want McDonald’s? What then?!?

[@caixiuying8901]

I can only answer the reverse a person who wants McDonald's but says she doesn't want McDonald's is my gf

[@ofanichan]

Person who wants mcnuggies, but then gets burger king nuggies and screams into the aether

[@follower9698]

I feel like all conservatives/reactionaries have left at this point is to behave deliberately stupid when arguing with people who know their stuff.

[@kkounal974]

This guy was 100% bait and no substance

[@itsbeebaby]

@@kkounal974 there’s a reason he kept going back to the same talking points over and over and over again, only switching up the name of trans celebrities. It’s hilarious his ultimate gotcha was John Travolta in hairspray 🤣

[@dinosaysrawr]

Yep. Either they play stupid, or they maliciously interpret our beliefs or arguments in the stupidest terms possible.

[@Alex-0597]

It's because they aren't there to argue, they're there to say whatever canned soundbite they've cooked up beforehand. "What is a woman," "What if a cis trans man doesn't want to transition," all these are just thought terminating clichés designed to rile up the base of people who already hate trans people. It also hopefully will sound familiar to normies who might internalize the soundbite and think it's actually a great comeback since they hear it being said so many times.

[@TheKiroshi]

The fact this guy opens up with "I recognize the difference between Sex and gender" And than he confuses the idea of "cisgender trans person".

[@TheKiroshi]

Also the fact this guy doesn't know about (or probably doesn't validate with) non-binary gender ideas.. Yeah, maybe he's honestly just totally bigotted and ignorant. Not sure

[@TheKiroshi]

Also also. This guy's argument is unironically. "But vaush, what if they lie"?

[@Feathers73]

@@TheKiroshivaush’s unironic answer is he would believe them lol

[@TheKiroshi]

@Feathers73 -- Yes, thats what you do. Theres literally no objective way to measure how accurate a name is. Same with gender. Are you still being a transphobe about all this? Boy its been A YEAR

[@Feathers73]

You say i ask what if a person lies in saying they’re a woman, and you agree with vaush when he says that he would still respect them in being a woman. I disagree with that. Tell me what i’ve said that is transphobic. It has been a year and i’m still not transphobic 🤷‍♂️ just fun poking at the vaush fans who don’t realize how transphobic they are lol

[@mckenzie.latham91]

These people are getting smarter, they start off pretty good and reasonable but then start rolling down the typical talking points As stated the moment you heard "I'm Culturally Catholic" You knew. We knew, everyone knew.

[@ezachleewright2309]

They're not getting smarter, this was just an outlier.

[@KoniTheChiwa]

“What if I’m a cis trans person” isn’t someone who’s smart, but rather a fucking idiot

[@CharlesLeSorcier]

This is just standard rhetoric, they aren't getting smarter they have been doing this since 2015

[@Feathers73]

What’s wrong with being culturally catholic? That’s the weirdest critique out of all this

[@mckenzie.latham91]

@@Feathers73 If your culturally catholic, the first thing that springs to my mind is A. Homophobia (Catholics are the literal source of anti gay bigotry, literally written in their sacred text) B. Lack of respect for women as anything other than property and brood mares as stated is their only real purpose in the bible C. Lack of progressive thought or willing to engage in progressivism, as culturally catholic to me massively implies “traditionalist” and everything out dated and wrong that comes with it D. Adherence to pushing Christian theocracy as mandatory policy traditional catholics are the exact kind of people who literally want all life and and all laws structured and ran directly as it it says verbatim in the bible so there goes most basic human rights, secularism and freedom of speech right there. Now it’s totally fair that this is an unfair generalization of “tradition catholics” but this is usually the low down I see from people who adhere socially and culturally to catholicism like this.

[@Tormund_Giantsbrain]

Vaush's voice is so soothing, his face is so assuring. His beard is so magnificent.

[@arcanefire7511]

Vaush rad

[@nicholashazlett4369]

Wow. A masterclass in thoughtful and patient rhetoric. Well done. This is the ideal way to approach debating overzealous debaters

[@Bancheaux_Perry]

I took a shot every time he said “ cis gender man with no desire to transition” Omw to the hospital 😢

[@daisukideshou]

heavy drinker here, doing this still gave me rapid onset liver failure

[@terinrichardson6061]

Include ‘a cisgender man who says “I’m a woman”’

[@ashelyfrankow149]

@@terinrichardson6061that’s called manslaughter, you’re insentiving suicide 😢

[@mewmere6069]

​@@terinrichardson6061i don't want to die 😢

[@taliakelly554]

"a woman is someone who identifies as a woman" "But what if someone who doesn't identify as a woman calls themself a woman, are they a woman?"

[@martianmars]

“If a cis man with no desire to transition declares he’s a woman, is he valid?” “He wouldn’t be a cis man if he says he’s not though.” “Okay so you’re saying a cis man who…” 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

Right?! If a "man" says they're a woman, then _they're _*_not_*_ cis_ 😆

[@protectedlands2869]

There’s nothing more condescending to me than the assumption that what I believe myself to be can be determined by anyone but myself.

[@joeyhernandez5375]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@DaveBadgerAnd none of their opinions mean anything, societal prescription are far from "objective merit" especially when they are inaccurate, as they regularly have been.

[@arcanefire7511]

@@DaveBadger There is no objective merit to social constructs.

[@arcanefire7511]

@@DaveBadger Height is an external measurable characteristic. Gender isnt. You're literally using arguments transphobes do with zero self awareness. This is literally the attack helicopter logic.

[@amm320]

@arcanefire7511 Height is an external measurable characteristic, but is “tall”? At what point does someone become tall? If there is no exact point at which we can definitively say that someone is in fact tall, does that mean that a dwarf can identify as tall? If a dwarf identifies as tall, does that mean society must also recognize them as tall? If society fails to do so, is that bigotry? Also, gender is an external measurable characteristic. If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be able to determine random people’s gender/sex with, like, 99.9% accuracy.

[@arcanefire7511]

@@amm320 Youre right about that, tallness is a social construct. But the direction we should take for fighting against height prejudice is to fight against the idea that height matters. Thing is, gender is infinitely more complex. Also lol at you saying gender is measurable because people can mostly tell. Thats not what determines if gender is measurable, tell me, how do you measure gender? Whats the unit? Gender identity is purely in your mind, no one can read minds. We just have a social convention where you can choose to conform to your gender category if you want. Thats a choice we personally make. Why cant you tell if femboys are boys unless you know they are? If all men chose to present themselves as femboys, youd think theyre all women right? But youd be wrong. Gender identity isnt determined by appearance.

[@the_amazing_el]

i saw this live. it was the second worst experience of my life right behind becoming aware of the existence of matt walsh

[@caixiuying8901]

when Matt Walsh called Leftism a religion, I figured I should just kill myself now LMFAO

[@Feathers73]

Hearing someone say transgender people are not the same as cisgender people is the worst experience of your life?

[@thefirstone4864]

Matt Walsh makes this guy one of the the most progressive man on the planet when being compared and I think there are way more evil people than him.

[@miswaridi4962]

Oh boy here comes another conservative walking into the wood chipper

[@ezachleewright2309]

Lmao

[@anonymoussaid9970]

This made me guffaw

[@GoblinoAlaMode]

If only this was literal and not figurative 😔

[@Olivetree80]

Is this guy conservative though?

[@Feathers73]

What did i say that was conservative?

[@The_dandy_zombie]

The fact they were trying to call someone identifying as trans ‘cis’ repeatedly was incredibly transphobic. Some people haven’t began the process, some people don’t have access, some people don’t want to outwardly transition! People are different and fluid!

[@thatdarnskag5043]

I have noticed, I don't think I've heard anybody say the words "I am a woman" more than the person Vaush is debating. Maybe there's some denial and internalized transphobia going on? 🤔🤔🤔

[@Feathers73]

No i did the internal work and searching and i found out i’m a cisgender man. Interesting journey tbh

[@awesomethegreatamazing2651]

I came here thinking this was a new debate (which it was) but then I realized that I already watched this debate live lol. This is a new feeling for sure.

[@madddd1]

Love to see Vaush turn into grinch when the attack helicopter is brought up.

[@sub-harmonik]

it would help if leftists didn't literally advocate for self-id.

[@theletterm1787]

​@@sub-harmonikself id for gender, not for military vehicles

[@iMajoraGaming]

​​​@@sub-harmonik the phenomenon of people like this dude hate-following people just to mald for 100+ comments for months on end despite never really even being noticed is very sad to me i'm not even sure if this guy is a hate-follower but that's the vibe this kind of disingenuous comment gives tbh be weird for someone who isn't hate-watching to be watching a voosh video when they're transphobic

[@madddd1]

​​@@sub-harmonikyou can indentify as a valid identifier, helicopter isn't one of them. Cause you know, a helicopter is a flying machine, that uses an engine to spin a propeller fast enough to generate lift and offset rotation from the spin of the propeller and, in fact not an indetifier you can assign to a human being, i hope you at least can understand that.

[@sub-harmonik]

@@iMajoraGaming I like how you id anyone who watches and disagrees as a 'hate follower' as if the only possible reason someone would expose themselves to someone they don't agree with on every single issue is because they love to be angry or something lol. and you wrote that fanfic based on the 'vibe' of 1 comment disagreeing?

[@wjadam024]

I had to create a male personality to survive. The first time my male persona was truly acknowledged I realized it was constructed and not a real part of me. I rarely shave my face or legs because I came to terms with myself as I am after that. not any trans person Has to pass! I got to know a girl named Adam and now everyone else has to as well.

[@Alexa-Raine]

You matter. 🥰🤗 I am glad to know such an amazing girl named Adam. 💕

[@Alexa-Raine]

Many cis and trans women don't care about hair. They're still valid women. 💯

[@thesaltybeard1793]

Dope.

[@wjadam024]

@@Alexa-Raine thank you so much!

[@daisukideshou]

always remember, hair doesnt make you less pretty, or less of a girl! never change anything about yourself unless it'll make you happy to. ❤️❤️❤️

[@casperchristiansen2458]

These people can't stand the idea that they're identity isn't anything but self-descrption. It HAS to be inherent for them to feel proud of themselves.

[@cypress2647]

Its mostly self-description but can also serve as a starting point to begin bridging the gap between someones current self and their chosen self. Its a bit like calling yourself a "gym rat" and going to the gym more often. It doesnt mean anything if you don't go to the gym more often, but if you honor the identity and start adopting the characteristics, then it means something.

[@mechanomics2649]

I think it's about deserving. People feel that you have to earn or deserve the right to self-identify. It's a concept that has wormed its way into all aspects of society. That Dang Dad has a great video about the concept of deserving and how it's rotting American society, though it certainly isn't confined to America.

[@LaSerpentDEden]

@@cypress2647 if someone says "im a Christian" They do not have to GO to church. They don't have to pray. They don't have discuss theology. They don't have to read the Bible. The only way those regulations would exist on the identity is if they're self-imposed. If someone went to church, read the Bible, discussed theology. But identified THEMSELVES as an atheist because they don't pray. Would you go "uhhhh actually! You're a Christian 🤓 by my standards and therefore you're Christian"

[@LDIndustries]

52:30 This is actually true, you can tell when a person is smiling by their voice especially if you can only hear their voice. There's a reason that call center jobs like dispatchers, customer service, and the like train their employees to SMILE when they answer the phone and when they speak to customers.

[@Am0nM0nr0e]

This whole debate is basically this person saying "vaush I hear you like apples, but what do you have against oranges"

[@Am0nM0nr0e]

"vaush you must be transphobic because you would rather let trans people decide their own guidelines on what it means to be trans"

[@ezachleewright2309]

Is there a name for that?

[@Alex-0597]

@@ezachleewright2309 I guess it's sort of assuming the consequent? If you don't like oranges, you like apples. You like apples. Therefore, you don't like oranges. If you don't think trans people are valid, then you won't believe a person when they tell you they're trans. You said you wouldn't believe Ben Shapiro if he giggled and told you he was "totally a girl, you have to believe me by your irrational leftist ideology!" Therefore, you don't think trans people are valid.

[@doublinx2]

Pancakes and Waffles

[@Volumbi]

​@@ezachleewright2309The strawman argument. Debating against a point nobody made or an altered version of said point to be able to attack it better is called a strawman argument. In the apple and orange example, if someone were to say "Oh, I like apples!" and a different person thus accuses them of disliking oranges, they are creating a strawman by essentially binding the enjoyment of apples to the hatred for oranges, making the statement of "I like apples" easier to attack for them, because now it holds to negative conotation of you having to dislike oranges in the process. It's like saying "I support trans people" and said other person then accuses you of hating cis people. Or even better, they accuse you of supporting sexual predators as well. That's essentially what a strawman argument is. .

[@abyssGazerTV]

That is one hell of a title given all the other trans debates on this channel.

[@chelsgo8675]

Considering Vaush debated The Inseminator twice the title of "Most Bad Faith" is quite an accomplishment.

[@caixiuying8901]

​@@chelsgo8675I'm scared to know who "The Inseminator" is referring to and I shall avoid at all costs

[@chelsgo8675]

@@caixiuying8901 oh you're missing out, that's one of the og debates. The deep Vaush lore. I guarantee if you KZbin search it those debates will be at the top of the algorithm.

[@kkounal974]

​@@chelsgo8675Don't they have similar voices or am i hallucinating?

[@jenywlfersn]

This conversation reminds me of an artist I used to follow many years ago. They were assigned male at birth, but kind of identified as trans. If I'm remembering correctly, they insisted that people use he/him pronouns and he occasionally talked about how they didn't want to transition either medically or socially. This was because they thought they would nevery fully achieve what they had in their mind. I should look them up. See if anything has happened in the last few years.

[@jenywlfersn]

I looked them up again, and from a cursory glance, the situation is about like I remembered it. I didn't look too hard (as it's late) so I could be wrong. Hope he's doing well :)

[@Femyoz]

I hope they came to terms with who they are, sounds like how I used to think when I was younger. I didn't want to be trans, so I thought I wouldn't be trans if I pretended not to be and lied to myself. Sadly, being trans isn't exactly a choice, it's literally just a part of who someone is, whether they like it or not.

[@Femyoz]

@@DaveBadger Autogynephilia isn't real.

[@Femyoz]

@@DaveBadger I guess if you're willing to apply that same standard to cis women, then sure. But delusional conservatives will argue that trans women and only trans women experience autogynephilia and that their autogynephilia is the reason why they're trans, and that being trans is just a fetish. This is just blatantly and empirically untrue, and any description or explanation of an autogynephilic experience will not apply to most trans people and will inevitably be something that some number of cis women have also experienced, that's why it's a meaningless and frankly irrelevant conservative talking point now.

[@kkounal974]

​@DaveBadger I don't think this person mentioned or even knew anything about the sexual orientation of the artist in question so where did "autogynephile" came from exactly? Do you know the artist and have more context to add? It seems like a more far fetched inference than them being closeted and trans.

[@LaylaSpellwind]

What Vaush says about internal process brings me relief. I'm trans, (She her) but do not pass at all. I'm tall, overweight, a voice like gravel in a cement mixer and my hair is really dark, so even after a lot of laser hair removal sessions, facial hair is still quite visible. I just... don't pass. It's a lot of grief to my self confidence.

[@friendlybane]

My conclusion on people like this is that they are willing to allow themselves to become stupid in order to align with a political ideology. I say "allow themselves" because I don't think any functional adult can be this stupid unintetionally. It has to be intentional.

[@omgitsdannyk9478]

This guy’s entire argument is just the attack helicopter meme again. “Well what if you had a person lie about being trans”

[@thecuremadguy4883]

I've been out as a trans guy for just shy of a year and what I've realised about myself and gender as a concept has opened my eyes to a lot of things I think aren't easy to grasp unless you experience it first hand. I think when you haven't had these experiences it can take extra time and effort to understand them. As an example, even though I'm a huge advocate for people expressing themselves authentically I used to find myself confused by trans men who appeared completely female, I didn't doubt their identity I just didn't fully understand. Now that I've realised I am myself trans masc but still have days where I wear my 'women' clothes and I know I don't pass for so many reasons from financial to my ocd and autism I now understand the complexities of identity vs expression.

[@thecuremadguy4883]

Also it's incredibly frustrating how this person compares peoples 'level's of transness' to determine how valid they are

[@dfsfsfdsaf6511]

@@thecuremadguy4883 But we have facilities separated by gender, like bathrooms, showers and locker rooms. If you have a trans woman that looks like a cis woman and a trans woman that looks like a cis man using them at the same time, wouldn't at least the former feel uncomfortable? Because you can't look into peoples heads and in this case you also don't have the time to determine if they are telling the truth. Although, I would say that is more of a problem with how we set up those facilities. But changing would take time and so we still have a temporary problem.

[@thecuremadguy4883]

@@dfsfsfdsaf6511 That doesn't take away from the fact that gender and expression are different things and don't always match, like you can't always control what you look like. The system is never going to be perfect, the human experience is always going to be complicated and the majority or 'non passing' trans people, like myself aren't delusional and are very aware of our physical bodies and use the most appropriate facilities based on that. So for example I use women's facilities even though I don't identify as one for that reason. The practicality of facility use shouldn't take away from real human identities and their validity. I wasn't really talking about that I was just focusing on the fact that when you don't have to question your own gender it can be difficult to understand others experiences with gender and how complicated it can be. That's true regardless of the practicality of it

[@dfsfsfdsaf6511]

@@thecuremadguy4883 "The practicality of facility use shouldn't take away from real human identities and their validity." Yes, ofcourse not. If someone says what they think or what they feel, you can't just say "no, you don't". Those are things that happen entirely in our heads. Others can't even know anything about that and so they can't deny you. Atleast not at first glance. But if you put a label on yourself, that has to mean something. You can say you identify as "thecuremadguy4883" and you would be right. But for everyone who doesn't know you that would be meaningless, because they don't know what that entails. So if you use man or woman as a word you have to adhere to some sorts of consensus. Though, I understand that there is no real consensus and the meaning of words can change by location and over time or more general by person. But words are still something you use for other people. So if someone really identifies as woman/man but her/his ideas about that totally differ from those of her/his talking partner, those words would not be helpful in communication. If someone else puts a label on you and based on that label tells you what you can or can't do that would be unjust in most cases, though.

[@thecuremadguy4883]

@@dfsfsfdsaf6511 Yeah I get what you're saying, I'm just trying to get across that in a lot of cases a persons outward appearance doesn't always reflect their inner self. So like a kind of silly example but someone who identifies as goth or alternative who takes part in the art and music scenes but doesn't take part in the fashion or may even like to wear fashion that completely clashes with it for various reasons like work, family, religion etc, that doesn't take away from their identity as a goth. At the end of the day it's about communication and respect, being open minded to hearing someone out about how they feel and I don't feel that the extremely small percentage of people that are insincere should change that. Hope that makes sense, I'm not great with words.

[@GingerNinja2332]

Like what do they think cisgender even means ??

[@iMajoraGaming]

*eats some pinto beans* this isn't code i am literally eating pinto beans rn do u want some

[@apossiblepsychopath7911]

​@iMajoraGaming yes please

[@CMDRunematti]

I can hear in his voice he thinks he's winning... While being so dense can't even differentiate between acting and being

[@_ericplace]

People just *pretending* to know stuff *very publicly* has always been a wild phenomenon to me 😭

[@youareobscure]

I haven't finished, but this guy repeately comes so close to getting it right before missing it. He aknowledges that everyone has a different idea of what it means to be a man or a woman, but never applies that logic to self identification. He's going on about a hypothetical transwoman that doesn not socially or medically transition not meeting the social conatruct he has for what a woman is and denying her identity based off of that when what matters regarding her identity is what she believes it means to be a woman. Not his belief of what a woman is, not ours. Just hers. 15 minutes in, and that is the simple thing he fails to grasp.

[@BullofCrete]

Because he's trolling. He isn't close. He's pretending to be to troll.

[@sub-harmonik]

Asking 'what does it mean to be an american' is a different question than 'what is the definition of an american'.

[@Gloomdrake]

@@sub-harmonikone answer is that American is just anyone who is a legal citizen, whether born here or naturalized. Another answer would be that an American is anyone who’s primary residence is in America, whether they’re a citizen or not. A third answer is that anyone who lives in North or South America is American

[@sub-harmonik]

@@Gloomdrake yes and you can hypothetically give many definitions of any word. That doesn't mean those words are completely meaningless: we all generally know what american means in a given context. 'American', like 'woman', has many different qualities to associate it with. But the people who advocate for self-id believe there are NO qualities to associate with the term 'woman'. And people who don't think trans people exist have the opposite problem. Actually, advocating for self-id invalidates the gender of trans people because it renders gendered terms or identities meaningless in relation to shared meaning or communication, whereas if gender is based on presentation then the gender of trans people is consistent with using gendered terms.

[@shadoeboi212]

​@@sub-harmonik I think your conflating gender identity with sex assigned at birth and the expectations(societal/otherwise) of the general associated gender . A trans person is a person whos self identified gender is incongruitous with the expectation of gender of their sex assigned at birth. Self Identity is the only truly accurate way to know another person's gender all others are guesswork. There might be some clues in there behavior/dress but it still a guess. You cant know if a person is cis or trans unless the person in question says so which is why everyone assumes everyone else's gender. people might be right most of the time from societal clues(dress/ect) because a majority of people are cis

[@TheTimeBomb75]

The whole debate: "What if a cis man identified as a woman?" "Then they wouldn't be cis" "But what if they did" Dude memorized all the buzz words but doesn't know what any of them mean lol

[@user-cn7mx3gf7x]

None of them mean anything. Trans ideology is bs

[@Snuzzled]

Good thing there's no such thing as "trans ideology," just like there's no such thing as the "gay agenda" of yesteryear

[@user-cn7mx3gf7x]

​@@Snuzzledyou are correct. Its more of a cult than an ideology

[@Snuzzled]

@@user-cn7mx3gf7x Words have meaning. Claiming that being trans is a cult minimizes the experiences of actual cult victims.

[@user-cn7mx3gf7x]

@@Snuzzled what a stupid comment...

[@inafridge8573]

I really wish Vaush would have said "If they have no desire to be trans then they're not trans". Plain and simple. The guy kept bringing up "with no desire" and it was frustrating that Vaush wouldn't shut him down.

[@Wulfspyder]

When the dude tried to trip up the conversation with Crowder's anti trans stunts, is when the call should have ended.

[@charlesmarshall6536]

More power to ya Vaush, I would've hung up at the jump, he had a facetious smile in his voice from the very beginning of his arguments.

[@KC-vs7wp]

I’m about halfway through, and a hilarious thing about this dude is like minutes into the “culturally catholic” analogy that Vaush is building up to, he all of a sudden is like “this is is the Mexican version of being transgender” and you can really tell he thought he had such a big brain moment and was making this analogy just then all on his own while vaush had obviously been trying to build to a point for a while

[@ericp166]

How did destiny manage to disguise his voice to debate vaush again after all these years

[@uninstaller2860]

He's become a cis male trans woman. It's like selling your soul to the devil in Christian mythology. Here it just means that he adopted an identity that doesn't mean anything, just to spite people

[@JackJohnson-zh9ul]

its always so funny how these debates start all polite and friendly and then devolve into total war

[@UrsusUrsa]

Remember when Heath Ledger irl blew up that hospital because he identified as the Joker? There's disagreements & bad logic but this was neither, he very clearly was just trolling because even brainlets understand John Travolta playing a role as a woman character in a movie does not mean John Travolta is a trans woman. Full stop. We can ignore literally anything else and stop debating if he's genuine or not, that's the only evidence we need.

[@RamiroEloy1997]

*So basically, the whole “what if they fake being trans” discussion this guy kept going on about doesn’t really matter.* *First, You should always take them seriously if they say they’re trans.* *Second, if they really are faking their trans identity for “nefarious reasons” such as assaulting people in bathrooms, well that person was gonna do that anyway.* *Realistically, a genuine trans woman who looks like Vaush would just use the bathroom normally and go about their day. This leads me to believe that we should just have huge genderless bathrooms with nothing but stalls in them that have their own sinks and all.* Did I do it? Am I lefty now?🥺

[@wikiboy63]

Seriously. If a person is committing rapes in a bathroom they don’t have to literally transition their gender to do that. They could just like walk in the bathroom and wait

[@themightymcb7310]

Most gender neutral bathrooms have urinals too just to keep the dudes out of stalls if they don't need them. Works more efficiently.

[@Proletrolliat]

Why tf would they need to dress up as a woman to assault people in the bathroom? why can't they just walk in? also since most women are attracted to men, wouldn't it make more sense to stay as a man if your goal was to attract women or something? it's funny how they argue about this but it logically makes no sense

[@pivotguydc1149]

Yep, that's the goal actually

[@ashleywildman5811]

While we’re at it… remove gaps in stalls too! ❤

[@TheFifthBanana01]

Cis trans person

[@mogscugg2639]

yeah what's wrong with liking bionicle?

[@TheKiroshi]

us Transformer kids are so victimized

[@caixiuying8901]

​@@mogscugg2639Bionicle Erasure

[@xaldynnemo47]

Hurr durr people can lie about being trans therefore trans isn't valid. I am very smart.

[@GothMoth_exe]

"If I said I'm a cisgender man....." That's. not what a transgender woman is. I'm so tired. The thumbnail warned me and I still clicked.

[@jennosyde709]

By the way, I am not sure if Vaush realizes this, but there is a term in psychology which describes precisely what he is using to explain gender as a construct. The concept of schemas encompasses general ideas of something which are not strictly defined but nevertheless hold meaning to people who communicate with those ideas. The concepts of man and woman can be described as schemas, where they connote a general framework of ideas surrounding social and biological characteristics, in which a man or woman will usually occupy but not always. A woman can be masculine in her presentation and/or not have typical anatomy associated with that schema, but she would still remain within that schema regardless.

[@jennosyde709]

@@DaveBadger I mean, that is implied under what we consider to be the general schema of womanhood. A woman is a person who identifies with the social schema that correlates with, but is not limited to, the female sex. That identification is what is an inclusionary criterion for fitting into that schema.

[@jennosyde709]

@@DaveBadger Sex plays a role in the broader social schema of the concept, but in the same way that a woman can be masculine and still fit into that schema, a woman can have different sexual anatomy than most and still fit into that schema. The idea of schemas is that they describe general ideas of something in which a simple definition would not fully encompass. Sex does play a role in the broader schema of manhood and womanhood, but this is not prescriptive. Most people do conceptualize a woman with certain secondary and primary sexual characteristics but may recognize that many women do not fit into the most typical conceptualization. Similarly, one might conceptualize a cat as being fluffy, yet some cats like Vaush's look like a rotisserie chicken instead. In the future, the concept of womanhood may change significantly across societies to where sex is not even considered within the framework of the schema. But the important thing to acknowledge is is that what is usually true of a schema is not prescriptive of the individuals within it. That is not me saying that sex determines who is a man or a woman; it does not. It just informs one part of the schema that society constructs of men and women.

[@joeyhernandez5375]

@@DaveBadger Btw, Female sex is also a pretty arbitrary phenotypical category, especially in humans. Trans women who medically transition ARE biologically female.

[@jennosyde709]

@@DaveBadger Not necessarily, at least if we are referring to sex. There are trans women, for example, who are perfectly content with their physical anatomy and have no desire to change it. Not everyone who is transgender has dysphoria or desires to medically transition. They would still fall within the schema for other reasons. And someone does not have to be "male" to be a trans woman. Even if we had the medical technology to alter every component of a person's biology, a trans woman would still be trans. Being transgender describes a relationship between sex assigned at birth and identity, not current sex.

[@jennosyde709]

@@joeyhernandez5375 I actually do agree with this. People seem to have an impression that sex is a magical essence that people have which cannot ever be changed, but sex is classified according to phenotype. And like you said, the classification itself is somewhat arbitrary (though not entirely), especially in humans who can alter many components of our sex. Some clinicians even extend the classification of sex to psychology, which would mean that with respect to their psychological sex, trans women are already female. And for all intents and purposes, if a trans woman medically transitioned by removing her gonads, getting a vagina, and going on HRT, then the only component of her sex that a person could even really refer to as "male" at that point would be her karyotype. However, karyotype is ultimately just a blueprint, not a determination of the final product/phenotype.

[@Hamble_Gambles]

u know that when a vaush thumbnail has a black background, it's gonna be bad

[@kryto4922]

Hi i think i might be the type of person being talked about in this video. I am a man, assigned male at birth, and using he/him pronouns. I suffer from gender dysphoria and for 11 years ive wished i was a woman, socially and medically. But i cant transition medically because im afraid of regretting it or opening myself up to discriminstion, and i cant socially transition because my social sphere i dont believe would react kindly, i feel extremely uncomfortable in my skin but am too afraid of the backlash i will face from socially or medically transitioning. So i will likely die this way cuz i dont think ill ever have the confidence to actually transition and am afraid of being murdered or having my rights stripped away if people knew i identified that way, i also dont want to constantly defend my existence against people determined to think that im simply mentally ill or brainwashed or whatever So for all intents and purposes, i look like a man, and have male pronouns But occasionally wear feminine garb around friends im close with but 23/6.9 im a man

[@stormburn1]

Sounds like we need more freedom so people like you can be and feel safe expressing yourselves. But I guess in that case the question is "What's the practical difference?" Even if someone was a mind reader and knew of a closeted trans woman, it would be bad to out them because doing so would put them in danger and/or distress. This kind of gets into the weeds of epistemology and morals which quickly turns to absurdity as we try to force perfect certainty on reality. A comparison I like is to physics where we have Newtonian mechanics and relativistic mechanics. Even though we today know Newton's laws weren't "true", and are not "true" today, because they're "good enough" for most practical purposes, we ignore the relativity angle until it's relevant. Technically, every time we ignore relativity when doing physics, like designing a bridge, we're operating on knowingly false premises, but we understand that all relativity would introduce is added complexity which would be ignored in the outcome regardless. So, in your example, while your experience is valid and worth considering, to strangers in your day-to-day life you're a cis man, but here where you specified the complexity it's relevant and would be more appropriate to refer to you as a closeted trans woman because you've decided to volunteer that information and introduce that complexity. - To put it another way, in the spirit of Voosh, if I'm in 30s Germany with Jews in the basement, as far as everyone else is concerned, I don't.

[@shang0h]

That was a pretty annoying hour listening to a caller saying 'yeah but what if someone lied?'

[@isaacevilman7586]

“…And just how identifying as a woman or identifying as a man makes you trans.” Weird. I’ve identified as a dude my whole life and I’ve also been identified as a dude my whole life… thought I was cis, but I guess that since I identify as a man, I’m trans. All hail the AMAB trans men! Edit: Okay, so he was clearly not understanding that this is all dependent on acting in good faith. A male actor saying “I am a woman” as part of a performance isn’t a good faith identification, it’s a performance.

[@richardsutherland1645]

"What if a troll pretended to identify as blank" "Then they'd be pretending and not actually blank so i wouldnt have to respect their identification as blank because theyre pretending" "I'm lost" I'm 23 mins in and this is essentially the debate so far.. its not going to get any better is it

[@Skeeeewoah]

"if a cisgender man says he's a woman.." well he's either joking or no longer a cisgender man. ....you would know the difference by the tone of the convo and other context clues.

[@Feathers73]

So if stone cold steve austin came up to you randomly and said with a straight face that he was a woman but wanted to go by he him pronouns and didn’t want to change anything you would believe him?

[@Skeeeewoah]

@@Feathers73 Well first of all, I'd say "WHAT?!". Steve and I go way back, he'd get it. Second, I'd say "So you're a trans woman, but you don't want to come out yet or you don't think you can?"

[@Feathers73]

@@Skeeeewoah he says “i just have no desire to go by she/her or act or dress like a woman at all.”

[@Skeeeewoah]

@@Feathers73 "well steve, then you probably aren't trans. maybe talk to a therapist to figure out how you feel" boom, there ya go. this fake situation that has and will never genuinely happen is solved.

[@Feathers73]

@@Skeeeewoah yeah so self id isn’t working there right. That’s why the trans community doesn’t use self id you have to actually have a desire to live as the opposite gender lol

[@SomethingImpromptu]

Imagine a whole conversation being this derailed by talking in circles around the distinction between SAYING the words “I am” something insincerely & sincerely identifying as it (actually internally holding it to be part of your identity). Lol if they’d just clarified that distinction this could’ve been a 5 minute conversation.

[@wilhelmkreis6578]

Yeah but the guy's whole argument is based on his deliberate misunderstanding of that distinction so it wouldn't have gone anywhere

[@pivotguydc1149]

but what are you going to do to "prove" someone's internal desire to transition? stop everyone on the street for a brain scan? it's better to just take everyone at their word.

[@deandage2703]

"If you just state to be a woman without sincerely meaning it you are most likely not identifying as a woman" bUt WhAt If I jUsT lIe?

[@twobitdork952]

This was hell to watch but I think it would have been better if vaush used a vtuber model during the debate!

[@LimeyLassen]

I love your commitment to this 😂

[@twobitdork952]

@@LimeyLassen 😊

[@CT22222]

I’m doing my best Ryan Gosling face right now

[@ezachleewright2309]

Aaaaaaahhhh ha ha, HA HA HA HA HA, *HA HA HA HA No.*

[@dckuha]

50:10 lol that eye twitch right before he hangs up

[@imacds]

A cisgender woman walked into a bar and exclaimed "I am a woman!" Someone bought her a single drink and she had a nice, safe night out. :)

[@nwnchrst07]

The closest thing to what he was referring to would have been me 2 years ago. I really knew, for every purpose that mattered, I was a woman. I hadn't said to anyone, not even myself, "I am a woman," rather I would say (to the few I felt safe to), that I had a woman's soul. In such a case, I really was a transwoman who hadn't "wanted" (felt safe) to transition. However, I really wasn't cis, even though I would have claimed to be, because the alternative (trans) was terrifying because of stigma.

[@NapalmAssasian]

I always worry that Vaush in the moment is not understanding that they are being bad faith but im glad that for the most part he is just playing along to extend the convo.

[@pivotguydc1149]

Yeah. Conservatives just throw out "gotcha" soundbites because it's all they have, the best thing Vaush can do optically is keep the convo going to counter the soundbites whenever they pop up.

[@Feathers73]

What was bad faith in this debate? Also i’m not a conservative lol that’s why i believe being trans is a valid identity

[@mindlord0013]

Is it sad that I have a friend, who identifies as Christian, that absolutely would say that people "aren't actually Christian" if their Christian beliefs don't perfectly align with his own? He's even said that about priests and religious scholars. Come to think of it, he also holds anti-trans views...

[@JonJoe]

he really didnt understand that stating, "I am a women" would be opposite from cis man. a cis gender male saying I am a women is actually... a lier.

[@Preciouspink]

That voice.I think this guy has a platform. I believe this caller interviewed Sandman. Anyway, TY Vaush. I learned things here. By the way;I am ascribing the following definition of a woman to you. Woman is a label that people may self ascribe to In order to cultivate a certain kind of social response:Vaush.

[@Cabal_Therapist]

I don't think this person is acting in bad faith, but rather notices that self ID on its own misses what it actually means to be trans, which is what we now call gender incongruence, and I feel there has been an unnecessary schism in the discourse between those who feel self ID is where the conversation ends and those who care about what and why someone self IDs as anything. I always think back to Contrapoints and saying she doesn't want to blindly agree with nonbinary people but actually understand them. The difficulty is that the average person isn't equipped for these conversations and we draw some lines to protect the average trans person from having to justify and overexplain themselves, but it leaves cis people vulnerable to rhetoric from the right when they have unanswered questions and can't get answers on this side of the house.

[@Feathers73]

Great point

[@opalharness1555]

No hes being exceptionally bad faith. His argumentation relies on mind reading and gatekeep closeted trans people. He's a transphobic shit head.

[@kimberly8313]

This was like getting ‘Circles in the Sand’ stuck in your head. Kudos for sticking to your point through all the circles.

[@marctech1996]

I think this guy is a chaser who would really love for every trans person to adhere to strict visual and behavioral gender norms so he can validate for himself how “well” they transitioned. It’s almost like he treats them as zoo animals that he can study and compare.

[@Alexa-Raine]

Right? Transitioning is just subscribing to social norms, same as cis women choose to do or not.

[@marctech1996]

@@Alexa-Raine Exactly. But the dude clearly wasn’t serious. The only reason I took him somewhat serious in the beginning was because he seemed to have a rudimentary understanding of certain trans subjects. By the end it looked more like he fetishized transitioning and that’s what his knowledge focused on.

[@Alexa-Raine]

@@marctech1996 That's a great point. 🎯

[@enio9477]

What he tried to say is basically "What if a cis man *pretends* he's a trans woman?" And Vaush still addressed it 3 times: 1) Basically a non-existent issue, these cases are *extremely* rare 2) You can say that about literally anything ("What if this person just *pretends* they're a doctor?) 3) Usually it's pretty obvious, like with Steven Crowder, and isn't treated seriously

[@Feathers73]

1-being transgender is incredibly rare, with like .5% of americans being transgender. So does that mean we shouldn’t acknowledge trans people? 2- if a person said they were a doctor but they hadn’t gone to medical school would you believe they were a doctor? 3-it is usually obvious because we don’t go by self id in the real world we go by if that person has a desire to transition and projects it to us, either by socially/medically transitioning or disclosing that they’re in the closet

[@enio9477]

​​​@@Feathers73 1. About 1.3-1.6 million of Americans are trans. The cases you guys talk about (i.e. cis guy pretends to be a trans woman and assaults someone) are ridiculously low and shouldn't influence the overall statistics. Plus, I didn't say we shouldn't acknowledge these cases, I said that such rare cases shouldn't influence general attitude towards a social group. 2. I'm saying that this ridiculous mistrust can be applied to any social group, however, for some reason, we don't discriminate against doctors based on these rare cases. 3. What the hell are you talking about?

[@sarahsanders1729]

Trump supporters gender me correctly and I feel so smug

[@cypress2647]

Same. My advice to other trans women is simply: Just pass br0.

[@duncandownham4726]

​@@cypress2647 That's more easily said than done for some

[@caixiuying8901]

​@@cypress2647I've seen your other comments here lol hmm

[@bassicdiego]

less than an hour long, ya know it’s gotta be good…………………..

[@themissingsock2437]

You know Vaush, even if this was the most bad faith debate ever, you're a genuinely good person for actually taking the time to answer and talk to this guy. It's really cool that you did this, and, I respect the hell out of this. I am not a sycophant of yours (no offense, but, your stans tend to be very unforgiving, and, that is a no-go quality for me with others), I say this every time I post, I'm more of a Hasan stan (lmao), but, I really respect the shit out of you for being, IMO, a good person who acts in good faith, and tends to IRL treat people like, well, people, even if they're.... like this guy, acting in bad faith. It's just refreshing to see. Thanks. This dude was definitely like... I always find it interesting when people do this though, call w/bad faith arguments, because usually they're not good arguments, and you can find ways to poke holes in them, and, they might walk away talking shit, but I've personally found, in my 30+ years of life, that these people will tend to walk away with a tiny bit of a different perspective when treated like a human being, even if they're being a shit in the moment.

[@ASocialistTransGirl]

why does the chat have a shadow

[@caixiuying8901]

because he's faster than sonic he's faster than sonic what?

[@witchflowers6942]

IM A GOTH AND IT IS OBVIOUS VAUSH IS DEEPLY IGNORANT ABOUT US. most goths “draw the line” at “you must listen to goth music”. The goth subculture is actually very well known gatekeeping and micro-cultures within the subculture. Trad-Goths and Deathrockers, etc. Obviously you can’t disprove someone as being goth, and most people don’t know what goth actually is, so sure, anyone who likes black and wears eyeliner is “goth” according to the non-subculture people, but we Goths(capital G) tend to take this distinction more seriously than we ever could a superfluous thing like ‘gender’.

[@TheKiroshi]

Excuse me but as a REAL Goth (capital G). The people of the Gothic Tribes do not appreciate you gatekeeping our culture. We are open and very welcoming of all goths and Goths. : ]

[@witchflowers6942]

@@TheKiroshi uh that’s true but i don’t think its gatekeeping to remind people that Goth is a music thing. that level of “gatekeeping” helps bring people in. There’s problematic gatekeeping in the subculture, but just saying, “goth is more than being dark” isn’t that.

[@TheKiroshi]

@witchflowers6942 -- I was making a joke about the real life Goth people.. but gatekeeping doesn't being people in, thats what gatekeeping is.. its baring off a group to new comings.. its antithetical to welcoming people in..

[@bradleyhamilton2459]

I listened to this while on a walk so I could fully listen and invest to what was said...what a huge error on my point. This level of bad faith is damn near inexcusable. It's like they dumbed themself down to make these points

[@Kekktye]

I think the reason self-ID works is because you wouldn't self-ID as a woman as an AMAB person if you didn't prefer and better identify with the expectations of a woman over the expectations of a man. Someone not wanting to conform with at least some of those elements wouldn't self-ID that way. Being trans isn't easy. Those expectations are hard to conform to. IDing as one or the other brings those expectations. Even as a cis person. Even as a non-passing cis person.

[@aflockofconnivingmagpies3490]

Self ID is not without problems though because if you ask any trans person they'll tell you dating is a nightmare because you will eventually encounter what I call "Schrodinger's tr@nny" someone who once turned down claims to be trans if they think this will "get them in" so to speak. This is most common with crossdressers but especially older fetishy ones, source? I am literally a trans woman who has encountered this enough that I coined this term to myself. Self ID is not sacrosanct, context matters.

[@TidePodsRFood]

Oh, I love it when they're bad faith ❤

[@thelawn6289]

Thank you so much for remaining composed throughout this debate! I am trans, but present 100% male. The internet is the only space where I can openly self-identify as a transwoman and I make a sharp distinction that I am an mtf and even add the controversial term HSTS just to preemptively signal that I am guarded against the terfs, transphobes, and other closeted fetishist chasers who use blanchardian jargon as a topic of conversation more likely than the good-faith normies. But that's as far as I go online. In real life, because I am closeted, I make every effort to present as a man, hide my feminine features and conceal all signs of my transition, I use my deep voice, hide my long hair, and cover as much skin as possible. I work a government service position and I use my deadname, I use the male restroom, I use he/him pronouns. I spend 90% of my time outside on the streets being visible to the public so I wear a face mask, and I do all of these things to protect myself. I recognize that a transphobe, if smart enough, can infiltrate what little safe space remains for us, they can pretend to be an ally. They become even more of a threat when they know I am trans. To come out to somebody is to give them the means to attack our identity, to tarnish our reputation, potentially forcing us to uproot our lives. I've had to transfer to a different district and lose my seniority/standing because I came out to a coworker who I thought cared very much, and guess what -- the only reason I did it was because they came out as non-binary -- and I later found that was a lie, and by then the whole workplace had a distorted idea of how much of a "freak" I appeared to be, and the negative social perception towards being trans has prevailed. It's so hard to do my job and serve the public when everyone is looking at me like I am a freak. The guest's drawling and smiling while talking reminds me of the very same person! It's such a remarkably deceptive tone. These transphobes are getting smarter, they are learning how to pretend to be supportive. Never be vulnerable. I've learned my lesson, but at the cost of having difficulty trusting anybody. It's sad because I don't know if I'll ever be able to come out. Every other trans person at work did not last very long because of harassment, and I'm not about to put myself to the test and risk the only livelihood that I'm capable of keeping. These people want us scared, and I'm living proof of that.

[@ArDeeMee]

If it’s any consolation, men can have long hair, too. My husband has a ponytail, and I keep seeing more and more long-haired men that aren’t metalheads. I, as a woman, strongly dislike exposing my skin. So those are two points I can point to as gender-neutral. I can obviously never really understand what it’s like being closeted, but there was a comment here from someone in your position, and they‘ve had to just learn to live with it without hating themselves. It sounded rough, but it is NOT your fault. You’re in a hostile environment and doing what you must to stay safe. You’re doing what makes the most sense in your position. So don’t hate yourself for being alive and (mostly) well. ❤️

[@thelawn6289]

@@ArDeeMeeThank you, thank you so much for the encouragement!

[@GothMoth_exe]

This is just transmedicalism

[@cypress2647]

transmedicalism is based and correct-pilled tho

[@apossiblepsychopath7911]

​@@cypress2647wrong

[@arcanefire7511]

​@@cypress2647its transphobia you absolute wanker

[@caixiuying8901]

​@@cypress2647 bro, you were just being nice guy in the other comments lol I was looking for comments to make Snapcube Sonic references to (and I did) so damn lol

[@Xanthelei]

Even with the protests to the contrary, I could tell by the halfway point this person is a transmedicalist. NO ONE focuses so singularily on physical transition but transmedicalists and transphobes. Another tell is there doesn't appear to be any leeway for people who WANT to transition but CANNOT for whatever reason, or have given up because they don't believe they ever will be able to (afford it, not be at risk of physical harm for doing so, etc).

[@vXn-vXn]

Says social transitioning is enough while denying to respect someone’s identity because they’ve taken it upon themselves to be the validator of all identities. Says social transitioning is enough while arguing why people who are passable are more worthy of basic respect with identity. This persons not responsible for validating anyone’s identity.

[@Feathers73]

Can someone be trans if they don’t have any desire to transition?

[@ijbdawg9]

Yo being transphobic is gay…wait a minute don’t tell me. I’ll figure out what’s wrong with that sentence.

[@joeyjointjebaiter1275]

Being homophobic also makes you trans btw

[@duncandownham4726]

Figured it out yet?

[@blairkilszombies]

The two genders: transphobic and gay

[@phillgornall2296]

Grammar is hard.

[@ijbdawg9]

@@duncandownham4726 Still working on it.

[@noahr.5026]

To sum up: caller doesn’t realize that saying “a cisgender man…” inherently undercuts the rest of the statement because the caller is already stating the “true”/actual/referential gender of the individual in the example ascribes to

[@Feathers73]

Why do you think I don’t realize that?

[@dave2408]

No such thing as cis 😂

[@vatechie21]

Does this person not understand… words?

[@Feathers73]

Yeah vaush really doesn’t seem to know what trans means, goth or christian. Pretty sad for someone with a bachelors

[@lloroshastar6347]

I don't know how these debaters are able to tolerate people talking over them consistently. Like I would have ended the conversation if someone interrupted me that often, just find it extremely annoying.

[@SuperCatfire]

the fucking smug grin in his voice the entire time