The Republic Deserved Pong Krell (...and why the Umbara Arc is INCREDIBLE)

We cover the Battle of Umbara - and how it showed the terrible true nature of the Galactic Republic, as exemplified by Fallen Jedi Pong Krell. All that and more on today's Clone Wars focused Star Wars Lore video!
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[@EckhartsLadder]

Probably a stream tonight! kzbin.info

[@winterszhuzhupets2]

Trump 2020 Kanye Ted Cruz 2024

[@pogwog5309]

my man be streaming, wooperdoodle.

[@lifevest1]

Eck! Are you drinking while playing EaW? Could use a good pregaming media to watch!

[@corydorton2660]

You are right this battle really wasn't need it they invaded a independent planet that was not Part other public nor it wasn't supporting the CIS it willingly broke up after its ambassador was Assassinated and yes I do know that their public needed trade routes but still that's no excuse for them to pretty much Marge on a planet declare martial law and try to take the planet back by force when they willingly left the senate and the Republic was always supposed to be a volunteer state it wasn't supposed to be oh join us or we will kill you So yes the older public at that point needed the fall and in legends it was replaced by much better government but the Empire also was just the same it was just as badd and just as corrupt as the old Republic especially in legend we get to see what they did so over all yes I do agree this does show how corrupt the old Republic was and how easy it was for the sith to manipulate them

[@mharizsaifuddin7059]

What happen to the Droid Army after Order 66 ? What did they do after seeing Troopers killing their Jedi, do they keep fighting the Troopers or do they stand down ?

[@silver5341]

Umbara: *Wants out of the Republic* The Republic: "So anyway, I started blasting..."

[@james501001]

Umbara: Wants out of the Republic and into the hands of the CiS that are led by a Sith. Centrists: why Republic mean though????

[@james501001]

@JCTyrtle umbara: hey we are gonna leave and instead of just remaining neutral we are gonna join your enemy, the CIS, that are led by a literal Sith.

[@wzdzysawzninosyn4905]

@@james501001 yes, why not? Also in their eyes Dooku was just an politican not a sith. And there were *no neutral worlds* . One episode even said that: "When surrounded by war, one must eventually choose a side" And since their planet was in valuable position Republic would attack Them anyway

[@boggless2771]

@JCTyrtle ever heard of the civil war? Abe Lincoln's first priority wasnt freeing slaves, it was keeping the union intact.

[@boggless2771]

The difference between an empire and a republic is the ruling system, empires have an emperor which has all of the political power, in a republic, the states do.

[@Buzzy_Bland]

The Umbarans are a perfect example of the organic side of the CIS. People fighting for their own systems and homes, rather than the sycophants and droids beholden to Dooku.

[@ManielTheDaniel]

Sorry but i must. *psychopaths Edit: my mistake sycophants are a thing

[@bigoistin9125]

@@ManielTheDaniel Sycophants is another thing

[@davisdf3064]

Sorry, but me must: You have committed stoopid

[@101Mant]

That's a common thing in many wars, people fighting not because of the leaders ideology but simple because some army is threatening their home.

[@lenkagamine4145]

@@miniaturejayhawk8702 An insurgency against a corrupt, incompetent government, yes. The "vital interests of the republic" happen to include concentrating power in the core worlds at the expense of outer rim worlds like umbara.

[@overtbias9305]

The Jedi: I can’t believe that our loyal clone troopers decided to turn on us! Also the Jedi: Have you heard the tragedy of Frontal Assault the Unwise?

[@bigredwolf6]

Captain Clueless Legends tell of a Jedi called “The Butcher in the Fog”

[@lordnul1708]

This is an example of what we call the difference between a knee jerk reaction and proper hindsight.

[@wastelandlegocheem]

Seriously, how does this dickwad manage to maintain GENERAL status? His tactics are like that of trench warfare but AFTER machine guns have explosive rounds added. If he's literally just throwing lives away to win, HOW IS THIS PROTECTJNG PEACE OR LIFE IN ANY WAY?! EVEN IN THE HYPOCRITICAL YODA ORDER, KRELL SHOULD HAVE BEEN DEMOTED FOR HIS CANNON FODDER TACTICS LONG AGO

[@wastelandlegocheem]

Bro spitting facts. Seriously, how does a general and peacemaker that just throws his troops into a deathmartch not get court martialed for reckless leadership? Recognized tactics my ass, making canon fodder out of skilled troops is unacceptable

[@andrewbloom7694]

​@@lordnul1708Uh, I don't think it had anything to do with hindsight. Full forward assaults through a chokepoint against an enemy with heavier guns on their home turf is just stupidly suicidal in regular sight 😂

[@S0l0117]

“ I will not be undermined by creatures bred in a laboratory”... ouch 😭

[@TheLiamster]

He’s not wrong though. He makes a valid point. The Jedi are peacekeepers not soldiers.

[@jasoethesentienteyeshapedg4847]

In my planned novel series. Say that insult to the Unionwealth's major league of Android Clones, they would see it as if you just insulted their parents that gave birth to them.

[@nicktechnubyte1184]

He's lucky Grunt didn't hear that!

[@boggless2771]

@@TheLiamster what do you think soldiers fight for? War? Or Peace?

[@boggless2771]

@Dmitry The Kebob Remover fine, police are peace keepers, the Jedi are police.

[@meknifeguycleff5343]

Imagine being a 4 armed dude with massive lightsaber and getting shot by dude with a dingy ol pistole.

[@marco5916]

"So uncivilized..."

[@bb-61ussiowa75]

Grievous has left the chat

[@Karel_lmao]

Sprint 600 no I havent

[@bb-61ussiowa75]

Grievous has joined the chat

[@powerofanime1]

@@marco5916 Damn it I wanted to say that! XD

[@Fi_Sci_]

An incredible Arc showing just how versatile Dee Bradley Baker is as an actor. And if Pong Krell had been around during Order 66 he’d likely be one of the hardest Jedi to kill, given how easily he was able to slaughter most of the 501st and 212th until he was outsmarted by Tup. Also on recent viewing Waxers death emotionally devastated me, he was one of my favorite clones that proved they were more then heartless killing machines, they actually had emotion and could make their own decisions. And That’s what will make Order 66 all the more tragic when it arrives in Clone Wars’s final season.

[@sebastianxftw]

that’s why i can’t wait for order 66 in the clone wars, i have a feeling it’s going to be handled incredibly

[@amorefreeman9648]

I don't think he would of died, most likely willingly becoming an inquisitor

[@Fi_Sci_]

Spyro Frost perhaps similar to Yoda he had foreseen future events in which the clones would _follow orders,_ and that is mostly to explain for his reckless plans that only endanger the clones even more.

[@calmterror]

One thing I found weird about the clones and their true purpose. Why are they not bred to resist force powers or at least mind tricks. It is weird how we see clones easily killed by droids and Jedi. but when order 66 happens the Jedi just go down with very little clone causalities. They should have been bred to be Jedi killers but with undying loyalty (via the chip) to the emperor.

[@smokedeuch4039]

The fact that the little twilek girl is on his helmet is heart breaking

[@Sco0bs]

Just realized that the galaxy was in a really terrible state when the empire took over. They literally just pulled out of a war, and as soon as they know it, they got freaking Sith lords taking over the galaxy.

[@neofulcrum5013]

Going for the weakness sounds like sith alright

[@TheLiamster]

Most people have never heard of the Sith or have even seen a lightsaber.

[@ltb1345]

And most people didn't even know Palpatine was a Sith until after his death.

[@randomrotors7639]

Part of the reason they were so willing to except him. Someone offers stability when your desperate, No one was in a position to refuse.

[@delta2372]

Honestly the whole galaxy went to hell after the clone wars, you got the galactic civil war, 30 years of fighting between the new republic and the imperial remnant, the vong, abeloth and krayt. Seems like the old republic era (mostly) and the time from the ruasab reformation and TPM was the best era to live in. Well asides from the mandalorian wars and the numerous republic vs sith empire wars.

[@owenparris7490]

The thing I remember about the rise of the Empire was...how quiet it was.

[@masteroftheassassins]

owen parris During the waning hours of the Clone Wars, the 501st Legion was discreetly transferred back to Coruscant.

[@Janoha17]

Except for the part with the thunderous applause.

[@pizzatime4700]

masteroftheassassins on our way back we were tasked with a secret mission

[@masteroftheassassins]

Pizza Time It was a silent trip. We all knew what was about to happen. What we are about to do.

[@kaotickiwiops2676]

Good times, if only you could turn it back!

[@mattdowner7779]

Umbarans use green lasers and there are gas's clouds everywhere. After umbara arc170s, v wings, and more use green lasers. Coincidence?

[@abyssshriek7631]

I THINK NOT!

[@bluesteele5786]

It was big tibanna gas the whole time!

[@SRosenberg203]

@@bluesteele5786 Standard Tibanna is pulling all the strings. Fucking space-Rockafellers...

[@generalgrievous6689]

You beat me to it.

[@nionashborn7626]

So, it’s the space Middle East?

[@kevinbaker2425]

The idea of the “good guys” utilizing a clone army is one of George’s more brilliant ideas when you think about it. This is especially evident when you consider that Timothy Zahn portrayed the clones as being utilized by the “bad guys” in the Thrawn trilogy prior to the prequels release. George took that idea and flipped it on it’s head: It’s not the evil villains making this morally ambiguous choice. It’s the heroes.

[@101Mant]

And nobody, nobody seems to have a problem with it. They are essentially making a slave army, then clones have no choice but to fight and die for them and they were literally purchased from their creators. Of course the galaxy does have slavery, and nobody is shown as being bothered by it, but it's supposed to be illegal in the Republic.

[@patrickfrost9405]

It's reflective of the Jedi and Sith dichotomy of organic Vs. synthetic.

[@boobah5643]

It's less that the heroes made the army; Palpatine ordered the clones in secret. Everybody else just kind of... went along with it. They thought they needed an army, here was an army that was willing to fight for them... and they didn't have the moral fortitude to say no.

[@derpimusmaximus8815]

@@boobah5643 Technically it was Sifo-Dyas. He foresaw a war that would rage across the galaxy, and believed that the Republic would need an army. When he brought his concerns and his plan to the Jedi Council - of which he was a member - he was told to knock it off. When he didn't, they kicked him off the council, and he went and placed an order for the clone army with the Kaminoans, pretending he was acting with the support of the Senate. Sidious found out about it, Dooku arranged for Sifo-Dyas to be killed, and took over the project. So the 'good guys' were against it, and took the reasonable steps that were within their power to prevent it.

[@aaronhollermann9831]

And also by the time the War began, there weren't enough Jedi to keep up their "routine" (finding force sensitive children etc), keep the peace within the galaxy, or the republic at last let alone fight a War. So they needed an army, which was ready to fight ASAP, to defend their Republic against an enemy with the ability to produce troops very quickly and in large numbers. Also concerning the "slave army" state it's cruel and inhumane to say the least and altough it's a little bit different in history (no cloning ;) ) there were slave armies(classes) which reigned over kingdoms and empires the Mamlucks for example. What in my opinion is the most cruel thing concerning the clones is their accelerated ageing.... I mean this big war would eventually be finished and than? What could they have done in their rather short lifespans, after their service to the republic?

[@TahoesLimit]

Funny thing is if Krell acted out a few years later, during Order 66, he would've been respected by fans for killing clones

[@centurionzen1005]

He also could have been on palpatines side, marching with Anakin into the temple. Remember he was doing this to impress a sith Lord. For power. His actions proved what kind of person he is.

[@marcusromulus5646]

Less than a year later if i have my timeline correctish. it hard since many of these battles and planet sieges has several start and end dates.

[@tyrannapusandfriends6254]

Centurion Zen he’d probably end up being an inquisitor... Ah shit. *Double helicopter blades*

[@declanbennett1085]

@@centurionzen1005 I kinda hated that reveal tbh. There wasn't really a need to bring up the sith, he could have just been a genuinely reprehensible commander and it would have had more of an impact for me regarding the clones. Especially given the "Jedi are shitty commanders" thing that came up not long after. Maybe I was expecting something different. Was still a good arc.

[@dylanbasinger9811]

Declan Bennett It would make sense, minus the 501st vs 212th. It doesn’t matter how little you care for your troops or how badly you want your military campaign to succeed... if you order your troops to kill each other, you’re a bad guy, no questions asked.

[@DarkKnight52365]

i like how rahm kota refused to lead clones into battle and created his own militia to fight the war

[@robertnelson9599]

Better than Pong Krell.

[@flamesofchaos13]

I think the difference between the two besides one sticking to the Light and the other falling to the Dark...Is that Kota simply distrusted the Clones while Krell despised them. Kota's method was indeed the wiser one.

[@MandatoryFruit]

Flames Of Chaos I believe Kota also thought it was immoral to use cloned kids essentially, as soldiers. The clones were only like 13 by the end of the clone wars.

[@flamesofchaos13]

@@MandatoryFruit He's right if he believed that it's 100% Unethical and something a Dark Sider would do.

[@EricGraham94]

Flames Of Chaos it wasn’t necessarily the Jedi’s decision; fundamentally it was Palpatine and Dooku who used the creation of the clone army for the Republic as a Trojan Horse for which to destroy the Jedi. The Jedi, however, did choose to continue being war generals and - yes - use clones continually in battle.

[@crissskywalker6115]

The Clone Wars is the best show to watch as a teen/becoming young adult, because none of the sides were right, and this "life is rarely black and white" idea is good to be explored at any age. The jedi (told to be keepers of peace become war generals), the republic is an undercover empire and the confederecy put to power the wrong people for it's cause (the idea to simply separate from a larger group becomes "lets take on the whole galaxy"). Beside from the Umbara Arc, I really liked the Mandalore Arc, in wich the Republic was slowly but surely taking over a neutral system, wich would have been considered a war crime if they were to just invade it, but the Supreme Chancellor, a master of manipulation, made sure that eventually Mandalore would be under the Republic flag, and a little later under Empire's flag.

[@boobah5643]

The whole thing is treated much more ham-handedly in the movies; Palpatine isn't just passing diplomatic notes under the table or sending out proxies to do his bidding to nudge folks into seceding and from there into armed conflict; he's dressing up in a black bathrobe and telling them to do things which they really shouldn't want to do, unless they know who he is _and_ trust him to have their best interests at heart.

[@tiestofalljays]

One side was far more “right” than the other when you consider the Sith’s involvement.

[@james501001]

@Mark Morris One side was openly led by them

[@theodorekaczynski1683]

"Today's not the day I do a full battle brakedown of Umbara" damn that hurts to hear

[@zephsuki]

Lmao same

[@delta2372]

Imma just sit here in the I don't like the clone wars show corner :/

[@mdandrews]

Delta 23 you must be pretty lonely over there

[@delta2372]

@@mdandrews eh you get used to it

[@d-wizzel4217]

@@delta2372 Yeah but there's more conversation in the other. It's very comfy there I promise ;)

[@TheRibottoStudios]

*Rex:* We're not _programmed._ We're not droids. We have to learn to make our own decisions. *Order 66:* hello there.

[@darylchurch2115]

Palpatine: hello there

[@waltuh2.3bviews3secondsago3]

General order 69... i mean 66, you are a bold one

[@zelithfang2365]

Pong Krell: I'm gonna do so much to hurt the republic that Count Dooku will be proud of me! Also Pong Krell: *uses two duel bladed lightsabers* Dooku: *according to a video I watched hates duel bladed lightsabers*

[@Janoha17]

Dooku: Trained his apprentices in dual-bladed combat so that they could never pose a threat to him, particularly by teaching them his own style which is incompatible with such weapons.

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

J17 and here I thought dooku was dead inside cause his student kept picking the multi blade features and he had to put up with it.

[@alexanderrahl7034]

Saber staffs are my favorites

[@dr.boring7022]

Staffs are very effective weapons tho. Half of the time to swing because of the two blades. Extended range, if you wanted to hold it at the end. Dooku was a fool to underestimate the double blades and dual wielding. I DARE Dooku to walk up to Sidious and say, "2 blades suck." Sidious would flake his ass.

[@zelithfang2365]

@@dr.boring7022 Dooku thought that unskilled duelist used more than one blade. At least in the video I watched

[@orangepenguin2975]

“They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind"

[@Leitis_Fella]

I could imagine Tarkin delivering this quote

[@draxiss1577]

The Republic may have deserved him, but those clones didn't.

[@evenl.b4409]

Truly some of the best stories I’ve ever been told

[@HolyCrusader5]

Let’s be honest, Palpatine was having a lot of fun when controlling both sides during the war, corrupting and manipulating people

[@twniks3720]

in my opinion, Pong Krell is the General Grievous of the Republic Military.

[@GojiraXR9]

You are 100% correct. Ruthless and multi-armed.

[@daleford8621]

Would have been magnificent to see them fight each other.

[@twniks3720]

but general grievous can't harness force abilities

[@daleford8621]

@@twniks3720 that didn't stop him from being one of the most proficient jedi slayers the galaxy had ever seen. His body was constructed to specifically counter most of the abilities force users wield.

[@twniks3720]

Dale Ford yeah

[@rickoftherick4610]

The Jedi: "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers." Also the Jedi: "You better rejoin the republic or else I'll give you eternal peace you damn aliens."

[@DraculaCronqvist]

And this is why the Jedi are evil, objectively spoken.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@DraculaCronqvist Uh, no objectively speaking, the Jedi are pretty much saints. They maintained peace for over 1000 years with almost no hiccup and without becoming literal dictators. Also, they were not racist or xenophobes either. Them messing up once in 1000 years is something no institution in any history has ever accomplished. If the Jedi evil, literally everything is evil by your "objective" estimation.

[@reptilian9201]

@@stephenjenkins7971 there's no way even 1000 years of peace justifies using what is pretty much a slave army in a war and having the children you'd earlier taken from their families and brainwashed command it (while also fighting on the front themselves, obviously)

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@reptilian9201 Considering that likely upwards of quadrillions of lives are saved from an entire galaxy of war, looking at it pragmatically, it justifies a hell of a lot more than a slave army. And the Jedi don't "take" children in so much that families offer them to the Jedi for a better life. And everyone "brainwashes", btw. There is no such thing as a learning institution that doesn't "brainwash".

[@reptilian9201]

@@stephenjenkins7971 idk if you and I watched the same show, but from what I've seen, it certainly didn't look like it was the families who offered the children. Also, there are more and less healthy kinds of brainwashing, and I'd say separating you from your family at a very young age and never allowing to see it again, not allowing you to feel emotions that people naturally feel and finally forcing you to fight in a war you don't really understand and sometimes be responsible for hundreds if not thousands of your soldiers' lives, often while still being pretty much a child, is one of the less healthy ones

[@theoncomingdork]

I love everything about this arc. I love the way they tackle the morality and nature of warfare, I love the very gritty, brutal aesthetic presented by the battles and atmosphere, but most importantly I appreciate this arc for showing us truly how deeply flawed the whole situation was. It showed us the callous, hypocritical side of the Jedi Order; how they preached for peace and justice, yet led an army of child soldiers (the clones are only 10 years old and don't have the experience of life yet). This arc presents a very real divide both within the ranks of the clone army and between the clones and their generals. Some, like Fives, were independent thinkers who realised that the duty of a soldier wasn't to follow orders but instead to protect the lives of their comrades and civilians back home. Others, like Dogma, were very straightforward with their philosophy. Additionally, this arc serves to highlight why many clones may have had few reservations with regards to Order 66.

[@TheLiamster]

If Pong Krell survived the Clone Wars, would he have become an inquisitor?

[@morcbus123]

Deeeefinately.

[@thetrippedup9322]

I don't think so, I think Vader would have killed him.

[@shiverLz]

Likely not. The Inquisitors consisted of rather low-ranking Jedi, with the Grand Inquisitor being a Knight. Palpatine would probably see Krell as a threat or rival than an asset due to his Master status. After all, there can only be two.

[@morcbus123]

@@shiverLz Then, like they did with the other Inquisitors, they'd cut off a body part and weaken him. I'd chop off both his lower arms, or at least one. Additionally, he was skilled in a double-bladed lightsaber and aggressive fighting, he didn't need the same training as the other Inquisitors. Hell, maybe he'd have been the Grand Inquisitor instead of the former Temple Guard Palpatine was left with.

[@TheLiamster]

Gamma Raygun Vader wouldn’t kill him unless Palpatine ordered him too. If Pong Krell had become an inquisitor he would be very powerful.

[@TheWingland]

In Star Wars leaders will say to set weapons for stun like Vader on the Tantive iv. Are Star Wars blasters any less accurate or powerful was set to stun? If not why not always have blasters set to stun in order to capture prisoners to interrogate? #askeck

[@volodymyrboitchouk]

When the storm troopers stunned Leia in the next scene the blaster launches a sort of wave of energy. So it seems like on stun mode a lot of range and accuracy is lost. So blasters would only be set to stun if someone absolutely had to be taken alive or I'd there was no real danger to the troops.

[@UGNAvalon]

Fives could’ve been taken alive. :(

[@nicholasavasthi9879]

They seem to be comparably accurate, as we saw in the arc when Ahsoka was falsely accused.

[@luthient2605]

@@UGNAvalon If only fox listened to his own orders...

[@CABRALFAN27]

@@luthient2605 His orders, from the Chancellor, _were_ to kill Fives, IIRC.

[@nickevans2605]

I bet that the Jedi were told something completely bogus like the Umbarans were supplying the CIS with weapons or something. Also, did Palpatine know about Pong Krell's turn?

[@Janoha17]

He made it so that by the end, the 501st had lost trust in the Jedi, and killed one of them, so when Order 66 came, many of them did not question it.

[@TheAginG420]

Yeh i think it ultimately was all set up by palpatine as said in the video, to create a precedent for the clones to distrust the jedi. What had transpired on Umbara would have silently spread through the Clones ranks very quickly. I think it was a way to 'encode' the chip to ensure that order 66 was followed. Palpatine would have certainly known of Krells numbers and most likely could sense his fall, so he just let the pieces fall into place.

[@UndeadNorseman]

It is hard not to compare the idea of systems seceding from the Republic to the American Civil War, but it is important to remember that the United States was neck deep in wars in the Middle East when the prequels were written. The importance being that the Clone Wars to your point was not a response to a direct attack by a foreign state but the acts of an aggressive government looking to maintain its hold and expand its reach. Great video.

[@ebowden1168]

UndeadNorseman it’s not like we one day decided to just go have fun in the Middle East. Tensions were built up from terrrorist attacks against our troops in other nations and even our home, and then being openly hostile and even invading our allies

[@tehrulefoo]

Was neck-deep? We never left. We're still fighting those rotten wars.

[@UndeadNorseman]

@@ebowden1168 I don't intend to get into a long discussion on this subject, but there is definitely decades of history that I was unable to distill into one comment for sure. I was merely drawing a connection between the broader history and the art, which has been discussed in much greater detail and greater length than I am willing to go into in a reply.

[@UndeadNorseman]

@@tehrulefoo Absolutely.

[@ebowden1168]

Emoticon not for long because we have a president who is finally taking action

[@ryanneale6501]

i love how they use dogma the character to represent the dogma of the jedi order. even admits all the death, and the “carnage” of krell, dogma holds true to his dogmatic beliefs. by the time he realizes his beliefs were flawed, his brother had already been slaughtered from the inside

[@lordnul1708]

"Battle droids made out of meat", weirdly enough seems to be a pretty appropriate descriptor for a good sized chunk of how Legends depicted clones, the majority had an "orders mean everything" feel to them, making them come off as droids that look like humans and only truly becoming people because of "off the battlefield" situations, whereas a good sized chunk of canon depicts them as more akin to people getting treated like droids down to a bio chip that essentially doubles as their equivalent of a restraining bolt. Of course, there are exceptions on both sides, and it's just how they came off to me.

[@thatslickgecko3414]

I always wondered if Grevious if he used his e-5 and light sabers at the same time to synchronize both allowing him to shoot while using his spinning block at the same time, You could say it would be the ultimate balance of both defense and offense.

[@tallerstond8105]

My god, don’t tell me you just did that to me...

[@AllanJTaylor]

Like those old German prop planes whose guns were timed to go through the blades.

[@hunterduck20]

@@AllanJTaylor edited, it was the french

[@AllanJTaylor]

@@hunterduck20 My bad

[@Ms.Strahl]

@@AllanJTaylor It was actually Dutchman Anthony Fokker who invented the interrupter gear, he made airplanes and sold them to the Germans.

[@downrangecash2418]

The moment I saw Pong Krell, I immediately got angry

[@knivesmillions2913]

I always wondered how other Clone units would have handled Umbara? Like I imagine Umbaran campaign would have went smoother if they sent the Galactic Marines.

[@TheLiamster]

I doubt it, most clones are the same except for special forces which have more training (ie Arc troopers and delta squad)

[@bthsr7113]

@@TheLiamster If the clones hadn't been as independent and free willed, they'd have died faster and in greater numbers.

[@marcusromulus5646]

Of course it would have been easier with the Marines, they had no Jedi General, except for Ki Adi right at the end of the Wars. Probably would have been a similar tactic, kick the hornets nest and kill everything that comes out, and they would've won as well, especially if they were in their exo-suits. Marines had no qualms of crushing an enemies weakness to win. For example, if they were in the Ryloth Campaign they would have bombarded the Anti-ship guns from Orbit, screw the villagers.

[@ltb1345]

This shit went over my head as a kid, lol. I can appreciate The Clone Wars even more now.

[@Mattropolis97]

How old is this arc? I’m 22 now and I finally watched it, but I was a kid when the first season came out

[@SRosenberg203]

@@Mattropolis97 The Umbara Arc is from Season 4, and aired in 2011 I believe.

[@Mattropolis97]

Sam Rosenberg Omg I had no idea it was that old 😂 As a college grad I just watched something I could’ve watched as a freshman in hs 😓

[@ltb1345]

I was only 10 in 2011.

[@prophetisaiah08]

As the saga of Star Wars expanded, we really got to see that the Jedi that Luke believed in during the Original Trilogy was a rose-tinted fairy tale of the real thing. Obi-Wan remained a true believer, even after death, completely blinded by his loyalty to the order. Yoda, on the other hand, had no illusions about the Jedi by the time he met Luke, even though he still believed in their philosophy and ideals. He believed in them, but also understood that the Jedi had failed to keep to them (both the order as a hole, and himself as an individual). Luke was eventually able to figure this out too, between RotJ and TLJ. Which also explains why it was Yoda, not Obi-Wan, who arrived to help Luke process this information and grow through it.

[@Silverfishv9]

See the biggest problem to me is that "between RotJ and TLJ" as the time. I'd say Luke had figured it out on the Death Star II when he decided that a real Jedi would rather die than kill someone in anger, and this carried on in his New Jedi Order in legends. The whiplash of "Luke realized the mistakes of the Jedi order and strove to mend them with the new one" to "Luke was a dogmatic believer in the old ways who needs to be taught why they were bad" in TLJ was pretty rough.

[@james501001]

@@Silverfishv9 yeah, Luke already rejected the advice of his masters when he felt like it, no reason why he would go on to blindly follow all the old rules.

[@kreigguardsman3355]

Legends had a better story his new order combined new teachings with old teachings.

[@welshinc5782]

You can even see that with the prophecy. Maul and Obi-Wan still believe in the idea of the light vs the dark and what the Jedi and with should represent and are the only people we know of that still believed in the idea of the chosen one during this time. Even Yoda says Luke might not be the one and that another could take his place

[@prophetisaiah08]

@@kreigguardsman3355 I respectfully disagree. If you like those stories, that's ok, but I feel that Luke was one of the worst parts of Legends. There was little about his characterization in those stories that resembled the personality and development of Luke in the films (though this, like almost everything else in Legends, was horrendously inconsistent). Most of those stories portrayed him as the swashbuckling Mand of Action type, which is wildly inconsistent with his personality and character trajectory in the films. And not in a "he grew and changed" kind of way; more of a "someone pulled his skin off and now a Force-using John McClean clone is wearing that skin and posing as Luke Skywalker" kind of way. As a result, the Jedi Order he founded was inconsistent with the person we see in the films. I'm not sure exactly what his order would have looked like, but his order should have reflected his continuing insecurities and misconceptions that he was left with at the end of RotJ instead of ignoring that incomplete aspect of his character development. The only book in Legends that seemed to get Luke and his errors and failures even vaguely correct (in my opinion) was I, Jedi. I won't lie, I don't know much about things that were published after the start of the New Jedi Order series, but that's because Luke's characterization in almost everything had drifed so far from the character I saw in the films that it was breaking my suspension of disbelief. Most of Legends by that point felt like bad fanfiction with some slick editing. Like I said, if you love those stories, that's great. I wish I could love them too, I just can't.

[@rebelappliance771]

The clone wars was a lot like Vietnam. A really bad situation that never should have existed.

[@R2Parmly]

The analogy I always had in mind was World War One. Devastating war that completely wrecked the known universe and set the stage for the rise of fascism.

[@FATMAN_tactical]

@@R2Parmly I agree. Big waves of troops, advancing over open ground, under gun fire, led by a man with a sword, all sounds like WWI to me.

[@bubblz4585]

it's more like the Civil War

[@SovietReunionYT]

Vietnam is not a good comparison for the entire Clone Wars. No one manipulated the americans into invading, they had absolutely no justification for invading (it wasn't even their colony that was revolting, they (the former colony that revolted) went to war to suppress the anti-colonial revolt in someone else's colony!), and they certainly were not fighting semi-mindless droids.

[@thebeanmachine7436]

I always believed that Star Wars drew inspiration from many wars but WW2 was the one that holds the most inspiration from

[@bengoodchild883]

I just finished this arc an hour ago in preparation for the new season!!! Love your videos keep it up :) Glad you're enjoying them as much as the rest of us. It was strange and incredible watching clones fight such an advanced organic army... including themselves...

[@345635356]

Umbara reminds me of Vietnam... Probably where they drew their inspiration from.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

Before the Siege of Mandalore, this was what perfection looked like in TCW.

[@thunder5026]

The Umbara Arc is what made the clones wars for me. Literally everything regarding these episodes are what make this show so great.

[@Rothana76]

“Stormtroopers oh sorry they’re still called clone troopers” do you want tofight? How DARE you compare the-

[@Rothana76]

Lord Venom there’s everything wrong with it. Their similarities pretty much end at the armor.🤣 Sorry I love the clones and them getting compared to stormies just *rankles*

[@boggless2771]

@@Rothana76 i felt the same!

[@Fire_of756]

*Holds back Rys Ion* It ain't worth it Rys. It ain't worth it.

[@LordVader1094]

@@Rothana76 You better not be implying that stormtroopers are inaccurate, because they're definitely not.

[@Rothana76]

I’m talking about general levels of competency and decency. Have you seen the Mandalorian? @LordVader1094

[@StuartLugsden]

I think about this arc sometimes and it makes me wonder why the Republic didn’t do the same with Onderon.

[@lunimaya100]

Thanks Eck for these clone wars related videos Really enjoying them

[@Trainsmann]

Ay literally writing a paper on the Umbaran Arc! It's about the ethical treatment of clones and the psychological issues that come with it. Everyone knows that this has the most Vietnam references but totally forgot about the fact that the Republic invaded a planet for no concrete reason. About the show, I really liked how there was a lot of downtime with clones talking to each other about how frustrated they are at the whole situation. Echo and Rex argued the most due to Krell's treatment like referring to them by their numbers, where Rex tries to defend his loyalty to the Republic while his troops begin to question the system. After the friendly fire incident, Rex is shocked and just holds his head in shock as he tries to process the situation. To summarize, it's the kid's version of Apocalypse Now, made Rex question his life as a soldier, and dives into what clones could be thinking in every battle.

[@DrEducation50]

The Umbarans fire green blaster bolts, while the Clones use blue blaster bolts. Blue and Green are typically associated with the Jedi- the "good guys." You can see there the parallel- Good guys killing good guys. The Umbarans just wanted to leave peacefully, the Clones fight for the Jedi (the "Good guys"). I think that's an interesting detail. Though I might be looking too deep into that.

[@TheCiroth]

This Arc is what made me fall in love with the show. Krell would have been fine under Marines or Commandos.

[@RicardoPerez-rz8pu]

Krell does show Pride, Honor Cunningly , Noble and Smart for a Jedi even if he was a Dark jedi in secret he was great Fighter.

[@gabrieltejada1697]

Ricardo Perez honor? Dude the guy made his troops kill each other over lying while also having no respect for ideas other than his own since he was against the jedi and the clones since the beginning because he wanted to be an apprentice to Dooku.

[@GFMarine]

I got chills back when this first aired when Rex realized that the clones were killing each other.

[@scheids4444]

Excellent video, one of your best ones yet.

[@NotHere12345]

Easily one of my favorite Star Wars stories. When the stand alone Star Wars movies were still a thing I was thinking how a Clone war epic would be amazing. Bring people back to the clone wars but make it about the clones and the battles they fought both mentally and literally. Draw things from saving private Ryan, lone survivor and other Great War epics. It’d be so dope to get a movie like this.

[@thorshammer7883]

Between Expanded Universe Turbolasers, mass drivers, torpedoes, ion batteries and Imperium navy weaponry which had more destructive output?

[@RoTenken]

Thor's Hammer Political Corruption

[@nobelprizelostmojo6994]

@@RoTenken brilliant

[@robertnelson9599]

Does Exterminatus count for the Imperium? If not, then Nova Cannons give the Imperium the win.

[@thorshammer7883]

@@robertnelson9599 How powerful are nova cannons in explosive force?

[@lenkagamine4145]

​@@thorshammer7883 Nova cannons really shouldnt count here, they're the 40k equivalent of a superlaser rather than a turbolaser. Compared to a star wars dreadnought-mounted superlaser (like the Eclipse), I would say the Nova Cannon has less single-target firepower but has a large blast radius that can encompass multiple smaller ships. Having said all that, I would actually be inclined to say that for a given size, star wars has more powerful weapons, *however* 40k has much larger weapons so their capital ship weapons would be more powerful (since star wars capital ships tend to have massive numbers of fairly small guns)

[@ottrr_]

Hey Eck! Awesome video, maybe the best I've ever seen from you. I really love how much analysis there is, and also how it's woven throughout the story exposition.

[@guido_chiancone]

One major thing though which was the primary reason for invasion. Umbara was directly along the path to Kasshyk, meaning whoever controlled Umbara, controlled the Kasshyk hyperspace lane. Although Umbara was relatively insignificant, if they lost this key world they lose Kasshyk which was already surrounded my CIS worlds. They did this in an effort to protect one of their most loyal and important member states.

[@krazus2036]

I think Pong Krell could have been way more impactfull if he just went insane or paranoid from his force visions. Not trying to defect to survive the oncoming order 66, but to start killing clones off handily until the Clones rebelled against him using order 66 on him.

[@pootypunt69]

“At this point the CIS dod NOT want to be governed by the republic” I mean yeah that was the whole point of the war.

[@dimitrivanderhoef2177]

Perfect timing, just rewatched these episodes today, love them.

[@PokeJoshNY]

I’ve been binging The Clone Wars to try to finish it before season 7 comes out, and last night I watch the Umbara arc. And let me just say, I was blown away from start to finish. It was at such a higher quality than the rest of the series I’ve watched so far in animation, the plot, and how gripping it was. I love the episodes that cover moral gray areas, and this encapsulated it. Honestly, this single arc might be the greatest thing Star Wars that I’ve ever watched

[@thedarkknight727]

Palpatine played the entire Galaxy like a DAMN FIDDLE.

[@mementomori1320]

The Dark Knight his grand plan was not the most ambitious or best, excluding Disney’s “canon”, but he succeeded and destroyed a millenia old order while becoming the most powerful man in the galaxy.

[@Remember_Bubblebutt]

Favorite arc of the entire show, bruh.

[@jimmyshalldoof8676]

I like your philosophical takes on star wars. I think it really adds alot to the videos. Keep up the good work 👍🏻

[@blackneos940]

I'm glad you're feeling better, Eck. :)

[@ms15st48]

It always bothered me how Republic couldn't help rebellion on Onderon (whose king was silenced) but had no issue invading Umbara and killing thousands of Umbarans just because they chose to leave the Republic

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

Umbara held an important hyperspace lane, Onderon was not important, so they didn't care.

[@gravytube4099]

I wonder where he's at in his rewatch🤔🤔

[@gravytube4099]

Waited 2 years for that, thank you👍

[@gravytube4099]

@Lord Venom i waited 24 hours to applaude, applause succesfully held

[@dkMansell96]

Literally just rewatched this arc yesterday on my trek back through the show for the new season. Besides the episodes explicitly focused on Ahsoka’s character these have to be my favorite episodes.

[@pdbouie]

Thanks for all your hard work. Great channel!!!!

[@Buzzy_Bland]

I want to make the argument that high casualties and a willingness to sustain them doesn’t make a poor military leader. War hurts everyone involved, soldiers and civilians alike, and the longer it lasts, the more people get hurt. A short, brutal war that results in high casualties in the short term is, in my opinion, far more ethical than a long, drawn out war that costs lives and shatters societies over the course of years. If an assault on a city will lead to the deaths of thousands, but will avoid a siege that could kill a million people, then it should be done if it can be afforded. If Krell weren’t a traitor and deliberately causing high casualties among his men to undermine the war effort, then I’d say that the fact that he got results where others couldn’t would at least temper the consequences of his tactics, if not come close to justifying them.

[@OrDuneStudios]

Just look at General such as Grant.

[@Dasharr]

Have you read The Art of War? Sun Tzu makes that argument there too. I'm not convinced by it because the justification relies on bringing the war to a conclusion faster and that's not a given at all. Brutality can potentially even extend the war if the other side thinks that surrender means death anyway. It can also cause escalation of as the other side's government, soldiers and officers are outraged by civilian casualties.

[@lenkagamine4145]

@@Dasharr We're not talking about brutality, just willingness to sustain casualties. Treatment of prisoners of war, civilians, captured territory, etc. are separate from fearless and reckless battle tactics. A "blitz"-style attack with high casualties on both sides followed by merciful treatment of prisoners and civilians, for instance, would not have the effect your describing.

[@marcusromulus5646]

Krell was only a traitor during the Umbara invasion, but his tactics are consistant with his previous deployments. High Casualties on their own doesn't make a poor Leader, its HOW the casualties occurred that do. We know little of the issues Krell faced on previous deployments when he was loyal but i still think he would send his Clones along a set path, even if that path had a minefield or two. I agree about the city assault, but what if all that is needed is kill 3 Officers and the city surrenders? Then you don't lose thousands+ and blow up many buildings just getting through. War is very costly for all involved and it needs the Leadewrs to be diverse in terms of their planning and execution of said plans. Krell took many casualties not because he was assaulting a heavily defended position or because there was no choice. He took casualties because he didn't bother to find alternatives, and that is the problem with his tactics.

[@Dasharr]

@@lenkagamine4145 I stand corrected, I saw the similarities in the logic used in your argument to Sun Tzu's and jumped to conclusions. However, I still think the argument has issues. Firstly, the justification relies upon the result of ending the war sooner and I'm not convinced that's necessarily the case. It's possible that expending lives on costly attacks leads to manpower shortages that bogs down the war effort overall. Secondly, in the case of the Republic in the clone wars specifically, sacrificing clones to try to spare innocent victims runs into an ethical problem. The clones themselves are innocent victims, despite being combatants, because they weren't given a choice.

[@yuenwang4894]

And yet some people claim that star wars is "pro war"

[@arijitnandi3688]

this arc just got me depressed

[@lucaweimann6548]

Oh man I got hyped of the breakdown but Eck still a great video and yeah you are right

[@CenturianEagle]

Such a good point, I hadn’t seen this arc in awhile because despite loving the clone wars and having watched every episode so many time’s- I never liked watching this one too much (not because I think it’s bad, I think it’s one of the best, it’s just that it stresses me out a lot lol, krells treatment of the clones makes me feel bad for them ahah) anyway, I was thinking these exact things when I was thinking about this arc recently. I had forgotten a lot of it, and was trying hard to remember what the separatist element was in this episode (as in, battle droids, dooku or anything really) and I couldn’t remember any, and then I realized that the republic was completely unwarranted in their attack of Umbara. Great video as usual! 👍👍

[@kingrex3411]

#AskEck How do you think Darth Vader would have handled the Imperial Navy and/or military if he was in charge since the beginning? (Attempt #2)

[@Jedi_Spartan]

6:06 Weird how Kota is the only one who didn't use clones... I don't even think it was because of the ethical reasons, I think it was due to effectiveness. Also how did Krell get control over part from the 212th despite Obi Wan still being on planet?

[@james501001]

Kota just didn't trust the Clones

[@Jedi_Spartan]

@@james501001 technically it's stated that he thought they were unfit for battle. Also I'm surprised we didn't see him in any Clone Wars content.

[@welshinc5782]

Jedi Spartan 38 yeah I was surprised that he never appeared, since he was in charge of the civilian army. It's good material to discus in a show like this

[@gabrieltejada1697]

Jedi Spartan 38 I would love to see his own militia betray him for money just to wipe that smug look off his evil face, glad he’s non canon and dead while rotting in hell where he belongs.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

@@gabrieltejada1697 ?

[@the_big_iron800]

I’m so glad you posted this

[@BotherRed]

I just started to rewatch the clone wars and this honestly is my favorite part out of the whole show. I'd kill for some more like this in the new season and more clone focused arcs and eps in generals.

[@CABRALFAN27]

A government as centralized as the Republic was, especially in its last years, cannot benevolently rule the entire Galaxy. A more Confederated system (Like the CIS, except with less corporate and Sith influence) with a fairly weak central Government is the way to go IMO. Let the individual Systems/Sectors do their own thing within a certain set of rules (E.g. No slavery, etc) with the central authority just mediating disputes, etc.

[@shorewall]

yep. :D

[@lenkagamine4145]

You cant benevolently rule the entire galaxy regardless, because the entire galaxy doesnt want to be ruled. If you want to rule the entire galaxy your quite simply going to need to enforce your rule through military force.

[@CABRALFAN27]

@@lenkagamine4145 Perhaps "benevolently" was the wrong word, but my point stands that, the more centralized a Government is, the more bias there is towards those at the center. And when we're talking about Governing a place as big and varied as the Star Wars Galaxy, with millions of Systems, Species', etc, centralization is not the way to go.

[@TheAginG420]

yeh well that's what leia tried for and see what happened?? Almost completely demilitarized the entirety of the new republic navy and was almost absolutely at a loss to stop an invasion had it not been for the "luck" of those individual planets deciding to come help. It very easily could have gone another way. There is no right answer

[@darthbretticus9951]

Pong Krell Vs General Grevious would have been Awesome!!!

[@Alpharius93]

My favorite Clone Wars arc by far. Please please give us more videos on it! Would love to hear your analysis of Umbaran tech and vehicles

[@direng]

Someone's been bingeing Close Wars. I'd like to see Krell in another series. He was an interesting character. Although it would have been bad for the story, I'd like to have seen Skywalker turn up in the end and fight Krell.

[@piercepayumo4212]

"I will not be under mind by creatures bred in some laboratory!" -Pong Krell And yet he got his ass kicked by the very same creatures bred in the same laboratory.

[@seoul08]

pierce payumo not really, if Tup hadn’t outsmarted krell with the plant that grabs him, Krell would’ve continued to decimate the clones as he already did to a good portion of them.

[@Nexturz]

*Its treason then.*

[@jackp4612]

The clone trooper series by Karen Traviss really goes into the lives of troopers and the morality of the war. One of the best series of books from old EU.

[@philipsalama8083]

What really got me about this arc is when Fives has an insubordinate but tame outburst, and Krell ignites his lightsaber and threatens to cut his head off. The fact that Krell could commit murder openly and no one would have stopped him says all you need to know - clones were slaves, no ifs, ands or buts.

[@thorshammer7883]

#AskEck How many Star Destroyers (Expanded Universe version) would a Imperium Battleship handle before going down?

[@thorshammer7883]

@Logan Johnson Whatever you want I guess.

[@thorshammer7883]

@Logan Johnson Would a battleship handle like 10 Imperial Star Destroyers in a normal battle?

[@zacharyrast7230]

Made it to the party early for once

[@tayojones9460]

Great analysis. I knew the Jedi were flawed but you brought up great points I haven't considered. This shows gets better the older you get.

[@bennyblubman9476]

Those episodes gave me the chills

[@Zookie112233]

#askeck can you do a comparison of the role and power of senators in the Republic vs Empire vs CIS?

[@sageg58]

Umbara, the vietnam of star wars

[@Jungoguy]

Nice to see someone else appreciates how great this arc was. I consider it to be one of the best arcs of the entire show.

[@FletcherReedsRandomness]

General Krell is one of my favorite one-shot characters in the show. We’ve had traitors in Star Wars before, but none of them relish in their treachery quite like Krell. Once he’s exposed by Rex, he gets a serious kick out of slaughtering clones, just because he believes they’re inferior. Krell is loathsome on a level rivaled only by Tarkin (and maybe some other Villain of the Week I forgot about), and I really like that.

[@BravoShield]

Strong Vietnam vibes from this arc.

[@caddydonstans116]

Anyone else want to stop and play with the animals?

[@Cryogenius333]

A lot of the issues here with Umbara were also covered during one of Padme's arcs, notably the one where she contacts her old politician friend/mentor who happens to be the chairman of a CIS planet and a leading member of the CIS council. She states that even though shes a member of the CIS, she doesnt hate Padme or the republic...they just don't want to be part of it.

[@Dont_care_4_U]

Umbarra was probably rich in what ever passes for oil in the Star Wars galaxy

[@pogwog5309]

#askeck will charlie ever make an oppinion on this chanel? btw infinity and escort vs death squadron

[@powerofanime1]

I'm pretty sure that the idea of "no attachments" was responsible for a lot of the willful ignorance on other Jedi's parts. They were educated not to get personal even against acts of evil.

[@Revkor]

hence why the grey Jedi is the ideal form to take,.

[@101Mant]

It's also screws you up. Don't know about all the aliens but the majority of humans need some attachments to be psychologically healthy. If the were joining as adults it would be less of an issue as they could join of they could handle that. However since they are conscripted as children to the order the chances are very poor they will all be able to cope OK with that lifestyle. So they either follow a way of living that messes them up, or break the rules and possibly feel guilt or inadequate over that. I'mt surprised more Jedi don't go bad.

[@pagannova3621]

@@101Mant they've shut themselves off from that idea and basically became drones, ignoring actual problems. that's the entire deal about the jedi..minus one or two of them

[@Killzoneguy117]

As much as I love the Umbaran Arc, I do also kind of wish it would also perhaps explore the Umbaran Perspective a bit. I mean from their perspective, they are patriots fighting to defend their planet from a force of occupying clones. In many ways, its an interesting precursor to the conflicts of the Galactic Civil War, with the clones showing up, not as soldiers of the Republic protecting a pro-Republic world from Separatist aggression, but rather an invading occupier showing up as a tool of Republic oppression. I feel like there's certainly a lot of room to explore the nuance of the situation. While perhaps these themes may not have been visitable in the Umbaran Arc itself due to the themes it was focusing itself on, I do think they could have done it if they revisited Umbara or if we had another arc following the 501st fighting on another Separatist aligned planet against a force made up entirely of organic local militia or soldiers.

[@demi-femme4821]

Imagine a reality TV show about characters in The Clone Wars and it lists occupations for each character, but they're all just jokes. _Dooku: Freelance Fashion Model_ _Anakin Skywalker: Idiot in training._ _Grievous: Mineral Enthusiast_ _Pong Krell: Professional War Criminal_ _Jar-Jar Binks: Important and influential political figure._

[@quinndenson3489]

Definitely one of the best arcs. Up there with Onderon, Mon Cala, Ventress's downfall, and Evan Piel's rescue

[@ZontarDow]

It wasn't the Confederacy that became the Empire.

[@wrightroenigk]

I sub to 15 Star Wars channels but this while ALWAYS be the best

[@paulaburrows8660]

One of the many arcs that put the sequels to shame. Can't wait for the new season.