Tom Holland tells NT Wright: Why I changed my mind about Christianity

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Justin Brierley is joined by leading New Testament scholar NT (Tom) Wright and popular historical writer Tom Holland to discuss how Paul the apostle changed the world as described in Wright’s recent book Paul: A Biography.
As an agnostic in terms of his religious commitments, in this excerpt Tom Holland nevertheless describes the way that the birth of Christianity has shaped much of what we value in Western society in terms of human rights, culture and rule of law.
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[@NashvilleGuitarist]

Unbelievable? There is a new book about this very thing by an atheist (Bart Erhman) called The Triumph of Christianity.

[@Lakeslover1]

Unbelievable? Yes. Christianity established justice and mercy in our legal systems, care for the ill, widows and orphans and homeless ( Paul’s apostles carried out in practical termsJesus care for them) . And because Christianity established a right to follow Jesus or to reject him without fear of beheading, freedom of speech also. To see what a world without Christianity looks like, to see repression and torture, just look to countries where Christianity did not take hold.

[@joelarshad4228]

For some reason Bart Erhman hasn't been on for some time.

[@deanodog3667]

@Theseustoo Astyages amen brother!

[@maulinux1]

@Theseustoo Astyages A vision of Christianity that takes only the worst of the actions of those who called themselves Christians. Is this an impartial reconstruction of the history of Christianity? It is fair to those who followed the teachings of Jesus and gave their lives to help others by following these teachings? Weren't they Christians and didn't they also write the history of Christianity?

[@gunner23]

I'm a 1st generation immigrant that travelled back to India at the age of 11, ever since then I knew there was something different about the U.K. At the age of 26 I finally realised that the difference is Jesus Christ. And now he is my saviour.

[@lilhammad9214]

too bad. everyone is responsible for his own deeds. no savior

[@gunner23]

@@lilhammad9214 Too bad Muhammad wasn't a prophet of God, since he first thought he was demon possessed (Sahih al- Bukhari 6982) (Ibn Ishaq p.106)

[@lilhammad9214]

@@gunner23 bible Jesus sweated blood in the garden tempted by the devil[god tempted by the devil'?? lol..... o t ' Moses afraid of the voice he heard ran and almost fell off the side of the mountain [thought he was possessed or satan was talking to him]. par for the course whenever someone hears voice of god. ..you can't win mate

[@lilhammad9214]

by your criteria Jesus and Moses were not prophets either.....ps Paul lost his head in Rome at age 47. not under protection of god. Thomas Jefferson ' Paul the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus'. not the last

[@gunner23]

@@lilhammad9214 so you concede that Muhammad was possessed?

[@UnratedAwesomeness]

When NT Wright is amazed by what you're saying, you're doing a good job

[@zakariyarazi8247]

lol

[@thomassaco9095]

Facts

[@anthonybardsley4985]

Jesus is my saviour.. He delivered me from the drug addiction and set me free..

[@beclear2473]

Powerful testimony. Powerful testimony Anthony!

[@hzelg5684]

What did God do ? Did Jesus pray for you like he prayed himself ? How did Jesus know how to help you when he didn't know that fig tree was fig less ? Really bro I'm trying to get you to see a pattern ... Ask God to guide you to Truth . Jesus was calling to the truth and a way to the Father or Creator of all that exists .....that includes Jesus pbuh. Use your LOGOS logic.

[@mickqQ]

Lord shiva saved me from alcoholism and gambling addiction

[@mickqQ]

robert marshall What wrath , ? Lord shiva brings love and peace , no wrath .

[@mickqQ]

robert marshall Three individual gods Shiva is my god , he choose me , he saved me . Shiva brings love , peace , and understanding Lord shiva gives me courage .

[@georgesmihaies3002]

The concept of Paul’s works “ripple effect” is one the most consequential spiritual/philosophical developments of the world. It offers an excellent organizing/unifying approach to understand the history. It helps to explore in this perspective the impact of the Old Testament/TANAK and of the Gospels. Thank you both, Tom Holland and NT Wright, for opening this door of exploration.

[@Mark-pb4dn]

Both Holland and Wright are morons

[@ponderingspirit]

Paul, not Jesus. He was a heretic. If only we had the gospel of James the just who was the true heir to the church and a law abiding Messianic Jew.

[@Mark-pb4dn]

@@ponderingspirit we have something better which is the Quran

[@flatoutt1]

what a fantastic show ,thanks to all .how bloody lucky are we to sit here looking on ,being invited in to also reflect on how we got our world ,that we have today. as we struggle to get some understanding and make some sense with context ,on the life we find ourselves living here .this is like an adrenaline shot to my neurons

[@boudicca9807]

Brilliant excerpt - I found it by accident as it popped up to the right of my screen. Thanks for posting.

[@sophrapsune]

Spot on. I am only coming to appreciate the truth of this myself over the last two years. Somehow, post-modern world needs to come to terms with its debt to Christianity in an entirely new way.

[@LlyneM-rf3gd]

@Theseustoo Astyages you mean when the pagans sacrificed humans and there were constant wars over pagan deities and land? No thanks.

[@flipgsp]

@Theseustoo Astyages I don't think mentioning pre christian societies with shared values does anything to change what is being said here. The people saying they learned certain things from Christianity are stating a fact. That someone did something before Christianity doesn't change that. For example, I train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Lineage is a big thing. Anyway, if you ask me where I learned jiu jitsu, I will say I learned it from my teacher. That's a fact. It would be pointless to say, but but but he learned from HIS instructor, therefore you learned from his instructor not him. Well no,his instructor lives in Brazil. I've never met the man. I learned jiu jitsu from my instructor. I have the skills and knowledge that I have thanks to him. Listing off the generations of people who knew jiu jitsu before him doesn't change that fact.

[@mickqQ]

Christianity owes a debt to the stoic philosophers

[@GuyUWishUWere]

@Theseustoo Astyages Islam Is going to take over the west in the UN's "replacement migration" (their words not mine) If we don't rally behind something. Curiously enough Isreal gets to keep their ethnostate.

[@GuyUWishUWere]

@Theseustoo Astyages we can try secular humanism. I just think Christianity has a bigger draw. Religion is a powerful thing. Do you have any Idea what I can do to fight against their federal reserve banks? I'm just a regular guy from Toronto. Should I take my money out of the bank?

[@Moshugaani]

It's a shame that people are so quick to dismiss New Testament writings based on our culture as nothing special, without realizing that our culture is significantly based on them! But if people _really_ read the NT, they would see how special it really is.

[@madmax2976]

You must have an odd culture. I live in the U.S., in the middle of the bible belt even, and my every day culture barely references NT writings.

[@Moshugaani]

You misunderstand me. My country Finland is highly secularized and people barely know what Christianity is, and very few have certainly read the Bible. But I'm convinced that the centuries or even millennia of Christian influence on our culture isn't so easily done away with and it has been one of the factors that have shaped the way people are/think/feel today, and it still has a huge effect, whether people know it or not. To be frank, the popular culture and the political sphere are doing their best to try and forget all about Christianity, but its influence has not been erased, it has just evolved or obscured from the collective consciousness.

[@madmax2976]

I suppose there's direct and indirect influence, the indirect consisting of things like weddings, funerals, births, certain holidays, etc..

[@RoadRunner217]

Wrong. The new Testament was build around society progressing. Have you read the old Testament? I mean, both are complete horseshit, but holy fuck, the old one really would make a good trash movie. All jokes aside, it's called the new testament. The "New" Testament. Answer me, who came up with the idea to write a new word of god, and why. Did they misunderstand god the first time and lived their lifes a lie and then went "wait a second, there must've gone something wrong" and then they had the o' so brilliant idea to just sprinkle a bit of progression over there, a bit of "less slavery" over here? I don't know how many fucking times I said this, but our cultures, european, nor american, are based on christianity. Our morals resolved from evolution. If you need a god to tell you, that you can't fuck your neighbour's wife or kill a dude, then you are mentally ill. Sorry if I come around as intolerant, but I can't hear it anymore. People who say things like you, have not spend enough time on the topic.

[@frankcollins4743]

@@Moshugaani Xianity is just another cult, more popular than some, used by believers to oppress others. Tbe Reformation and the Enlightenment started to eat away at its influence & science will destroy the silly superstition, not before time. The NT is a joke.

[@slackvariable7295]

Holland is a wonderful writer. Reads like he's there with you.

[@PockASqueeno]

I came here to see Spider-Man discuss Christianity. I’m disappointed.

[@wyattsidwell6115]

Ditto

[@aaronchristian6259]

Hahahaha u're a funny dude👍

[@MasterHANSTV]

Hehe me too...

[@MegaRoadwolf]

LOL😂😂😂😂Yeah me too.

[@AM-qv9yf]

You must not be familiar with Tom Holland. He's all about History. Primarily religions

[@dondayelbano3262]

I don't see Spider-Man anywhere. Jokes aside, good discussion.

[@daenithriuszanathos9306]

That was my immediate thought. I'm slightly disappointed. :(

[@1969cmp]

WhipperJesus Racism toward any particular ethnic group?

[@MartTLS]

Loren Wilson That’s the problem with mobile phones he’s got nowhere to change - or is that Superman ?

[@alltheworldsastage4785]

Loren Wilson lol, I honestly thought the video was referring to that boy that's playing Spiderman and his thoughts about Christianity, that would have been interesting to watch.

[@MartTLS]

Scandinavian Hebrew No it’s the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s truth. The one and only truth. The truth of the Pastafarians . Hallelujah Pasta be upon you.

[@damminers49]

Seeing Wright saying “very interesting” just makes me chuckle. Looks like a kid in a candy store.

[@meganneale2074]

Fascinating discussion - I hope this is a discussion that indicates that we are moving closer to understanding the real depth and transformational power of reading Paul and the NT in a new light ... ripples of light indeed!. Thank you.

[@charlieallansen9763]

I love Unbelievable!!! Fantastic KZbin program. Well done Justin for hosting this.

[@Carol-Vaiphei]

That part where Tom wright was sighing "very interesting" 😂👍👏

[@Kopie0830]

True Christians follow 2 things: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus, as part of the holy trinity, intercedes for our sins and paid with his live for us to be worthy of salvation. He proved that he is of God when he resurrected from the dead. We just need to live holy since God is holy and love one another, that's all he asks for us to be saved. Those claiming to be Christians yet does not follow these 2 teachings are not true Christians.

[@mallardhead]

3- Love one another as I, Christ Jesus, loved you.

[@jerryspace9701]

Just a fairytale and you ppl believe that? Omb

[@lisasommerlad1337]

@@mallardhead and 4. Love your enemies.

[@mallardhead]

@@lisasommerlad1337 - Yes! But doesn't this scripture mean "enemies" qualify as "neighbors"? (Just a thought. Thank you for saying what you said! It is truth- for sure!)

[@mallardhead]

@@jerryspace9701 - Thumbs down only because it does not qualify as a fairytale by definition. Ancient documents written by Christian haters acknowledge that Jesus existed, taught what scripture says he taught, and was executed on a cross.

[@jeffbrowne1268]

I read I Claudius and realised what he meant! sadly we will only appreciate Christianity once it's gone

[@shiningstar3312]

Please do not be sad....Christianity will never be eradicated....why?........b/c JESUS, the Cornerstone of Christianity is The Eternal God, the Great I AM, The Way, Truth and LIFE............Islam and Roman Catholicism attempted to obliterate it and did NOT succeed........no worries ......relax........Jesus our Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier is coming soon.......He said so.

[@JRobbySh]

Even that does not show how alien to our experience was life in that court. We cannot grasp how different the Romans were from the Italians we know.

[@el_denk]

The Apostolic Church still exists. It’s the Orthodox Church. ☦️

[@BoredAtWork2000]

Would have liked to hear Wright’s response/comment

[@iconian1387]

I've been saying for a few years now that whether you believe in the Bible or you don't, it's important to understand the massive impact it's had on the world, both positive and negative. Atheists often shut their eyes to any of the positive within the Bible and Christianity. Christians shut their eyes to any negative or anything that might cause them to doubt. Most people aren't really being honest with themselves or with each other.

[@JRobbySh]

When Lord Russell was damning the Nazis as evil, he could not find any reason for his judgment.

[@iconian1387]

@R Berger Who are you talking to?

[@trevorkuun199]

God is much more concerned with where we will spend eternity than the short time we spend on earth. Many of us need to experience a lot of hardship in this world in order to call out to Jesus so that we may be saved, I have personally experienced this in my life

[@Revjonbeadle]

Solid historian. I read the book he mentions on late antiquity Islam from a while ago and it was on a different level. So glad to see. Perhaps he’ll write another book on the subject of how Paul’s “depth charge” impacted the Western world.

[@ruhido]

Hi Jon. What's the full name of that Islam book he mentioned please. Thanks

[@Revjonbeadle]

Isaac Munõz In The Shadow of the Sword

[@youcefassou1592]

Actually Paul isn't Paul but saul also the authors Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, attributed with the creation of the four Gospel accounts in the New Testament do we know their full names . I can t find any reference to who are they to trust if we dont even have the normal full name. Any clarification to this matter would be appropriate.

[@LlyneM-rf3gd]

@@youcefassou1592 regular folks rarely had "normal" full names back then, like royalty did. Do you mean like Saul of Tarsus and Joseph of Aramethea?

[@calebp6114]

@@youcefassou1592 People in the first-century didn't have 'full names' - (They didn't have forenames and surnames). They had a name, such as Saul, and then a city of their origin 'Saul of Tarsus.'

[@sheriefelsayad5578]

So Tom Holland is saying that the idea of human rights and international law go back to Paul, that must be a joke, Paul says in one of his letters that if you are a slave you should remain as you are because Jesus might be coming anytime on the clouds of heaven to scoop you up. Great human rights. This Tom Holland character is really a fringe scholar.

[@35751W]

Which letter does Paul say if you are a slave you must remain a slave?

[@HBrown-cc6wv]

New listener here. Big fan of the channel. Does "Unbelievable?" have a twitter account or something I could follow for updated on videos and such/ cheers.

[@PremierUnbelievable]

Hunter Brown sure @unbelievablejb on Twitter and Facebook.com/unbelievablejb

[@Jokl92]

The book „Why You Think the Way You Do: The Story of Western Worldviews from Rome to Home“ by Glenn Sunshine brings that out enormously. It’s pretty much a condensed history of the western worldview. Veeery Interesting!

[@loudnuff4u]

On the reality of Christ, I once heard an atheist (anonymous) concede that the church could've invented someone much more convenient than Jesus.

[@MasterChief-sl9ro]

Not without Evidence. As the life of Jesus Christ is well documented. I once heard Richard Carrier say Jesus never existed. I laughed so hard even when Richard Dawkin repeated it. As not one sane Classical Historian would go that far. As there is more evidence for Jesus Christ Existence. Then Julius Caesar and we teach him as Fact. Which was written 400 years later. After his exploits of Conquest.

[@mickqQ]

Master Chief 00117 I believe Jesus existed, I dont believe he was the son of a god. In saying that Richard carrier has published the first peer reviewed paper on Jesus being a mythical being , like Hercules , or Thor ... also sons of gods.

[@AvenjaysGuitar]

Master Chief 00117 oh really? What contemporary evidence is there of Jesus existence?

[@MasterChief-sl9ro]

@@AvenjaysGuitar The dead Sea Scrolls. The Books of the Hebrew Bible. Just to name a few. And they are used everyday in Contemporary history classes across the planet. So you better either read more. That or slap your teachers. Then get a full refund from the schools. They robbed you of a Classical Education. Thank You

[@mickqQ]

Master Chief 00117 Do you know what contemporary means ? Is Jesus mentioned in any texts written by people alive at the same time as Jesus ?

[@bonusfombo7626]

Read the book titled “how Christianity made the modern world “.

[@supersmart671]

Is it the one by Vishal Mangalwadi? I have read it, it's really awesome

[@devolishash3946]

By invading countries, massacre people, destroy their religion and culture and impose christianity on them, and stealing their wealth ?!!! 🤔

[@thejoin4687]

For our civilization, we have agreed it was most memorably stated in the New Testament-with its intense concern for the relationship of a man to himself and the next man to him, with its distrust of logical system and uniform solutions, its parables radiating off their ambiguous meanings, its biting conflicting admonitions, and its insistence that wisdom is only wise if, as situations change, what is wise also changes. Such a view of things appears to have been in the minds of those who invented democracy. Elting Morison

[@joannware6228]

"The acceptance of our bodies as God’s gift is vital for welcoming and accepting the entire world as a gift from the Father and our common home, whereas thinking that we enjoy absolute power over our own bodies turns, often subtly, into thinking that we enjoy absolute power over creation. Learning to accept our body, to care for it and to respect its fullest meaning, is an essential element of any genuine human ecology." -Pope Francis from his encyclical Laudato Si’

[@georginafotini7532]

Just scratching the surface of the inspirational writing of Gods word, it will blow our mind. That is' why many Christians will always tell other how they cant explain the insights the what they read but to say' Gods shows and explains these truths by inspiration'.

[@phoebelyngonzales3899]

Yeah

[@eddybrevet6816]

Insights, really, then why does not tell how to get over herniated disc, had to figure out myself?

[@eddybrevet6816]

As true here as it is in Russia, 2 convince certain number of citizens they threatened by phantomorgorias is easy, therefore even war necessary, sheep separated from goats, I wud rather b a goat in Russia,

[@cristianpereyra6912]

damn spiderman really let himself go

[@joelrodriguez1232]

Fascinating!

[@basilhendricks788]

Wow ,very profound explanation about Paul

[@andystov]

Paul the depth charge- I like it

[@zarnoffa]

Luke is one of the most influential men in history. He wrote Luke, Acts, and some of Paul’s letters. Amazing.

[@barrycampion9679]

It's rooted in our society, whether we accept it or not , christianaty shaped the world for good

[@uglycouzin]

Please...I need more of this.

[@1969cmp]

James Frazee Jordan Petersen touches on this type of stuff. Peter Hitchens and Ravi Zacharias more so. And Ken Johnson does some early church history presentations that are dry but very very good.

[@mo1240]

Joseph Prince online msgs daily, most analytical bible teacher currently

[@Moshugaani]

I bet there's a book or two about similar subject matters, written by these dudes even.

[@MatthewSchellenberg]

Aren't you that guy from PVK's Sacramento Meetup? Funny running into you here, but I suppose to be expected

[@elroyswarts513]

Fascinating...

[@thearchitect1601]

I want the real Tom holland from marvel spider man, but good talk i enjoyed it💔😂😂😂😂😂👍👏

[@markmacdonald3260]

Another interesting thing is the difference between UK or European Christianity and Christianity in the US and then again with Christianity in South America. Being a working class Scot I seem to have a problem with greed. Being successful almost makes someone untrustworthy. Is this a hang over from my Christian background. I would describe myself as an atheist but am aware of some attitudes I exhibit that may be consistent with Christianity or are these older than Christianity explaining the differences between Christian cultures globally?

[@ben-dr3wf]

Paul and the early church fathers were themselves influenced by Greek philosophy. Plato's metaphysics was the foundation for Christian metaphysics. But Holland at 2:35 puts down Greek philosophers in order to romanticize Christianity. Western philosophy owes as much to Greek philosophers as it does to Christianity.

[@epicccurusaurelius2634]

Yes. But we have lived for 100s of years in christendom. So naturally one must say that we, as a people, have more in common with people from the middle age then from antiquity. They did phylosophy but no phylosopher in those days said that all people are equal = democracy. This all came with christianity. All people are equal in the eyes of god. Then later in the eyes of the law.

[@Dominic-mm6yf]

Not to mention the Enlightenment and champions of workers rights etc etc.

[@regularfather4708]

Paul Vanderklay sent me here.

[@hgostos]

May God bless Paul Vanderklay

[@supersmart671]

He echoes what Vishal Mangalwadi says in his book "The book that made your World"

[@fr33thinker69]

Yeah having the old testiment to help write the new testiment, and yet still getting it so wrong. Thats a real mind changer.

[@thisguy7976]

Wasn't this guy disintegrated in Infinity War?

[@thisguy7976]

WhipperJesus I missed your reference.

[@1969cmp]

WhipperJesus A repeat post? Hmmm...

[@alltheworldsastage4785]

1969cmp Yeah, kinda pathetic ain't it?

[@tread_well_frank2772]

@Dominick Fischer - LMAO ! that was good i must say

[@TrevorHamberger]

typical. An atheist clown loving a retard movie.

[@tomek1867]

I agree with Tom Holland. The Christianity has changed the Antiquity and moved it into the Middle Ages and then into another era.

[@tomek1867]

@קומפרסור יהודים Of course. Just look at Jews in Babylonia. There was no Thora, just spoken traditions and stories passed on from generation to generation. Till... 539 B.C. when Cyrus the Great of Persia let Jews return from Babilonian captivity to Judea. Then the Holy Temple is build in Jerusalem and Thora is written. Judaism, Chriatianity and Islam are interconnected. There would have not be Chriatianity without Judaism. There would have not be Christianity and Islam without Judaism.

[@ariesangst4356]

Obviously Tom has not read David Fitzgerald's book Nailed. And he made no mention that Paul's letters contain nothing of miracles performed by Christ, which would have been a pretty powerful tool in persuasion. Also, do we even know for sure that Paul wrote those letters? Has Tom delved into the contemporary history of that time like Fitzgerald did?

[@ariesangst4356]

@@rberger7846 Lovely fairytale. As long as it makes you sleep better at night.

[@johnmarkharris]

N.T. Wright nodding with eyebrows raised "I want to talk!"

[@MafiaChess]

🤣🤣🤣🤣 I literally have been talking to my father in law about this, btw he is an atheïst, that he is been influenced by Christianity and he doesn't even know it. I asked him why is it that you don't think like a Muslim 🤦🏽‍♂️, or a hindu for example. Man.

[@suheilpinto6964]

Man you are an idiot. And its as if you never met a hindu or a muslim. I am from india who has a muslim first name and a portoguese last name. You name a religion we have it in india. They all think and act the same. Don't ever use this arguement it's stupid. Man.

[@MafiaChess]

@@suheilpinto6964 btw following Christ is not a Religion. That is the fundamental truth about Christianity. The Bible teaches to have a relationship with God and he had a relationship with us first. Because of those teachings we don't think a like. And one more thing you when you accuse someone you are actually talking about your self. Three fingers are pointing back at you. And I will keep using that argument because you are a product of your surroundings. If you are raised by a Muslim family you will think like a Muslim, if you are raised by a Hindu you will think like a hindu it has nothing to do with your name. And you know what's funnier my father in law is raised by a Christian family. So to think like is to believe like also. Get my point now?

[@majmage]

@@MafiaChess 1. Is Christ a god? 2. Do you believe/worship Christ? _Religion_ is defined as, _"the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."_ Now it's possible for someone to "follow Christ", but (A) not believe they're a god, and (B) not worship them. So technically it is possible to follow Christ without it being a religion. But I'd guess for 99.99% of people (including you), it _is_ a religion and you're just misusing the word.

[@suheilpinto6964]

@@MafiaChess no, you don't have a point and you are still talking like an idiot. You are living in a fantacy land same athe others. Your god and your religion christianity is man made fantacy. For 300 thousand plus years or so ago in man's existence, and about 2000 years ago he decides to have a relationship with people like you. Its hard not to call you names like moron, delusional etc. You are not stupid exactly rather you are definately delusional. Buy the way i point with my middle finger just like steven segal does in his movies and put my hand out like gangsta's holding their guns sideways away from their bodies. You should have asked how i hold my hand when i point before. And now forgive me and move on.

[@MafiaChess]

@@suheilpinto6964 oh ok I see where you are going. Are you offended what I just wrote? Is it not true that believes can play a role on how you think?? What is the problem with that??

[@drewwhiteddc6018]

Tom Holland has some powerful things to say. I can't wait to read his books!

[@drewwhiteddc6018]

@meluhawasy Ad hominem

[@cristianpereyra6912]

he starred in some pretty good movies ill tell ya that

[@primroselim6897]

@@cristianpereyra6912 that's a different Tom Holland. This one's a historian & best selling author.

[@LordHorror1970]

@@cristianpereyra6912 I loved him in those Spiderman movies, too.

[@jongoiri]

Mr. Holland’s lack of depth in its historical and intellectual analysis (e.g. assimilation of Roman and Greek culture, ignoring most underlying and previous philosophical beliefs which influenced Christianity, etc.) and disregard for the vast amount of time Christian influence took to effectively influence the morals of the Western World is often exasperating, However, his natural and ingenious intuition about his affinity to Christian values (as currently developed, this is important) and his alienation with regard to those of many others (e.g. ancient Roman, certain ancient Greek, Islamic, Confucian, etc.) is not an invention, he really holds this as true, and as such, I believe this feeling does hold some truth in it. For the distinctive nature of Christianity is not in the cross, in our only true God, or in His rules and commandments. Its distinctive nature, that which puts it apart from any other religion and makes it unique, is “love”. Love is the driving value of the Gospels, love is (or should be) the most valuable thing for a Christian. As Saint Paul said, “but have not love, I gain nothing” (or in Spanish, “si no tengo amor, no tengo nada”). Love to one’s neighbor is the founding rock of Christianity, the most noble feeling and belief, one to which we can only aspire although we can never really reach it, because we are humans. And when you love you neighbor, and “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is [neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus”, then the only logical conclusion is that we are all equal, that we all have the same dignity, that irrespective of our luck or accomplishment in this world, there is an underlying base, event if very low, in which we are all equal. From this point on, you only need to develop this equality and the mechanism in which we are going to implement it. But the underlying idea is held as an axiom, i.e. that fundamentally we are all equal before God, he loves us all, and, therefore, at least to some extent, we must be equal before other men and women and they all should love us and seek our best fortune. This is the revelation, this is the revolution, this is what cannot be found in any other religion or belief, at least not as a the main supporting value. Submission to our true God, good order, personal enlightenment… these are all well and good, and often also found in Christianity, but nothing has made such a difference, nothing is or has ever been so revolutionary, as stating ““This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

[@thatone8085]

With good human logic which is based on right and wrong with kindness is good enough for me as i go on my journey in life. A good and fair government is necessary to provide jobs and security to the people . Law and order must be there for the people with hospitals and schools too. I do not ask for much just peace with harmony and fade away when my time comes.

[@dapablo2]

Paul's writings are influential, but that doesn't mean God, that would be absurd. just because Paul believed it and wrote it doesn't make it true.

[@chrishand9324]

But he saw jesus. That's God enough

[@chrishand9324]

@@dapablo2 of course it's true. If it wasn't true the bible wouldn't have written it. John 17:17 they word is truth.

[@dapablo2]

@@chrishand9324 You can't quote the bible to prove the bible. See how you actually lose the ability to reasons as a normal human being would? I'd love there to be a God with an afterlife but unfortunately wanting things does not make them true. Why do you belief there is a God and don't do quoting the bible thing again, as i said it doesn't work.

[@chrishand9324]

@@dapablo2 actually I can quote the bible 1. Because of free will. And 2 because I am saved and have my beliefs in God and the bible and the bible did not say who can can't quote it not did it? Just because you dont like what you see or dont have proof dont mean everything God related is absurd. God is truth but you refuse to chase it yet you sit back and say what you think is true . Just like God is love and Jesus is the true king of kings

[@dapablo2]

@@chrishand9324 There is no such thing as free will, I know it's a platitude you repeat because you have been told its true but it's not. Want to play, did God create the universe and does he know the future? | Could he have made a different universe if he wanted?

[@davidmcintosh3468]

He is correct, Christianity turned the corrupt world onto it's head.

[@LlyneM-rf3gd]

@Theseustoo Astyages 13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Corinthians 13:1-7 That is some of the most important Biblical verses to Christians

[@LlyneM-rf3gd]

@Theseustoo Astyages no one said, Christianity invented love, or that Christians are the only ones who hold love to persecutors and non-members as a COMMANDMENT!, NOT JUST A VALUE. Love is the core theme of what Christ taught. You seem to think that when others promote it, that's great, but when Christians say it, they are just copying. Paul only wrote 20% of the new testament. His writings are commentary on what Christ taught. 1 John 4:16-21 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. Buddhism teaches people to not interfere wuth the karma of others. That is ither people are suffering, they must be allowed to suffer, ti go without, in order to improve their karma. Jesus taught followers to serve others whenever you can, regardless of their background and that they may learn love by observing true love by viewing true love in action, love that us given unconditionally because our God tells us to do so. Following the will of a loving God is very hard. Trusting that love will prevail, in the hardest of times, is very difficult, especially while one is being persecuted and hated. Paul didn't invent the concept. It is a universal truth. Here's an article about Buddhist values in action in Myanmar: Authorities in a Buddhist village recently established a law forbidding Buddhists from hiring Christians for work and from renting or selling anything to Christians. As a result, believers in the village are unable to buy food. Every day, village authorities pressure the Christians to return to Buddhism, promising that if they do they will be able to buy food again. The believers, however, are standing firm. “This is not a game,” one Christian replied. “We were baptized. We believe in Christ 100 percent and we will die believing.” When a Buddhist vendor sold a banana to a Christian recently, he was detained for three days and fined the equivalent of $65. The man later decided to become a Christian, asking another believer to teach him the Bible and baptize him, because he saw that the Buddhists were wrong. Pray that this man grows and stands firm in his faith despite the persecution he will likely face. Pray that all believers in the village will love those who persecute them and inspire other Buddhists to learn more about Jesus. Pray for VOM’s efforts to provide these believers with food.

[@LlyneM-rf3gd]

@Theseustoo Astyages So you reject Christian teaching on love for EVERYONE, because Christ taught it. Islam definitely teaches that allah hates everyone who doesn't obey muhammad-- or so says muhammad. You'd rather go with the hate and fear doctrine of islam.

[@reeb9016]

@@LlyneM-rf3gd Nice, you silenced the dude who put so much thought into his user name and tries to infect comments with his negativity.

[@LlyneM-rf3gd]

@Theseustoo AstyagesSo you're disputing what Paul said about love. You don't think love is the answer to everything? Don't you think love is important? Don't you think God is love and that God's love should permeate everything we do? A universal truth is just that. If I said "don't hurt other people", you'd claim someone else said it first. Buddha had a great deal of wise things to say, but so did Paul and the other Disciples of Jesus who learned directly from Jesus. Paul said it differently than Buddha did. Just because Buddha preached love, you think no one else can teach love? What about what John learned from Jesus? 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. Gospel of John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. And I assume, you also think John was wrong in quoting Jesus. Why do you reject the idea of God's immense love?

[@Adidasler593]

I was wrong about Tom Holland. I thought he understood history.

[@pauldh62]

Forgive me for my reluctance to embrace quite so quickly the idea that Christianity has given us everything positive for want of an apposite word. This sequence reminded me of that Life of Brian sketch - What have the Romans ever given us? Law, a development of democracy from the Hellenistic period, socialism with Gracchus tribunes, to name a few. Caesar's conquest of Gaul was brutal but, even in Gaul, there were winners and losers among the Celts, much like later in Britain. It has to be seen in context as Gaul and the Celtic kingdoms were an emerging if challenged series of forces - a million casualties somewhere in Europe was inevitable with a showdown coming. As for the early Christians I receive the distinct impression that they resembled the more extreme and fringe elements of Al Qaeda than the guitar strumming Jesus loves you fraternity or right on middle class vicars we are familiar with today.

[@pauldh62]

Might we not say that it is indeed the Roman world that has given Christianity that place, that mould with which to radiate these values you say we share. I view such defining altruism of the Christian faith through the haze given off by the Inquisition, The Revocation of the Edict of Nantes, persecution of Catholics in England. For genocide we have the work of the Conquistadors, European colonial systems, Vatican collusion in the Holocaust, local Catholic collusion in the Rwandan genocide, Christianity's influence in the Serbian Bosnian war of the 1990s, homophobia past, present and future. All this thanks to the wonderful work of Constantine, a pagan emperor - responsible for what we believe, for he chaired the meeting that decided which works constituted our New Testament and which did not. Craving unity in an empire that was victim of its own success and tolerance - it had become so diverse that it lacked cohesion. It's rather like going cap in hand to the Taliban.

[@pauldh62]

@R Berger Would they? What of it? I question the idea that the early Christians can claim any moral high ground. When one considers that it is drawn from Judaeism this hardly comes as any surprise, with its practise of genocide. Those wonderful Founding Fathers might have scorned as they sat on their perches, comfortable continuing Rome's institution of slavery, much like the early church.

[@pauldh62]

@R Berger Well u get the Smarty for quotes, I'll give u that, but I don't really give a fiddler's f who said what when they opine. I care when they provide historical evidence, but John Adams, lofty as he is, is proffering a view, nothing more and your comment does not address any of the points I've made, but u do know more than I about John Adams. Jolly well done, forgive me.

[@drdecker1]

Christianity is actually tied up in both areas of the full gospel. The old and the new. Jesus read from Isaiah because the new testament did not exist at the time. When you begin to read both the Old and New you begin to see that without both you simply cannot see the full spectrum of God's hand within our world. Its like a reporter writing a story on a trial without including all the evidence. When anyone does this they are just basically skimming over the story of God and creation.

[@BenWeeks]

Had the reformation not broken the iron grip of the institutional church on Europe there could have been no enlightenment period.

[@_Dublin_Girl_]

Which led to the French Revolution and, finally, the destruction of the West which unfolds before us in real time. If you have lots of money you probably haven't noticed yet because you're too preoccupied with self-love.

[@JRobbySh]

The Enlightenment was best exemplified in the Jacobins.

[@georgenorris2657]

It has always been clear to me that we live in a post-Christian world in which our attitudes and priorities have been shaped by 1500 years of Christian tradition but his idea that we owe much more in our tradition to Paul (and thereafter Augustine and Thomas Aquinas) than to Socrates and Aristotle hammers this home. It's worth pointing out though that Paul himself, despite his Jewish roots, was brought up in Tarsus. It would be interesting to know just how Hellenistic his own education was.

[@keenangreene8503]

More people need to understand this

[@pippipster6767]

But he did make a bloody good salad.

[@rikardschumacher178]

Saint Paul - The Master Revolutionary to surpass all revolutionaries. Thank God.

[@octaviancaesarhibernicus4447]

Tom Holland's Rubicon should be required reading. Without doubt the greatest book I've ever read.

[@Krotas_DeityofConflicts]

Paul definitely isn't the one who cause the ripple effect of Humanism. It is human intellect. Paul nor the gospels definitely doesn't help with slavery nor equality; writting stuff about how women should not have authority, how to own slaves and treat them, etc.. In terms of ripple effects or influences, we influence one another, Paul's ideology were influenced by ideologies before his

[@epicccurusaurelius2634]

Little steps at a time. Understand?

[@majmage]

@@epicccurusaurelius2634 So you're agreeing with Chhak, right? (Little steps at a time is exactly what he just described, pointing out that Christianity doesn't get to take credit for the entirety of everything just because they happened to be one of those little steps -- that'd be as ridiculous as saying western civilization rests on the bedrock of MY moral values, just because I'm also one of those little steps ;) )

[@Krotas_DeityofConflicts]

@@epicccurusaurelius2634 do u?

[@epicccurusaurelius2634]

@@Krotas_DeityofConflicts You can search high and low in antiquity but you will not find a single important man saying that all men are equal. St Paul said, there is no greek nor jew, and there is no man or woman. This was so different compared to anything from that time that people found it ridiculous. All the greek phylosophers were still part od the aristocracy and this would never come out of their mouths. Furthermore he ushered the important words, people are more important than rules, in the first century ad. This is even modern for todays standards. This was blasfemy for jews and later muslims where the rules of god are more important than people. This means that christianity in itself had the seed for change. If society changes, rules have to change. This is the reason that christianity adapted best to modern life. Judeism and islam did not. The rules of god can not change. The bible for the most part is not a book of rules but of stories. You cant expect a society that has functioned in a certain way for centuries to change over night. Real life does not work that way. What you dont understand is the fact that monotheism changed the world but not only religiously, even more socially. Because if all people accept one god above them, all people under him are equal. For the first time you have a situation where all men are in some way equal to eachother. The rich king and the poor farmer are all equally worth before god. Now imagine the power that that idea had where kings and aristocrats could be critisized. To expect that the relationship of master and slave and the position of women can change over night is highly naive. But the words of St Paul were the groundwork for what would come next. The muslims didnt have a Paul and they are mentally still stuck in the middleages. Slavery was abolished, for the first time in history, by christian people and people inspired by christianity. You cant dent that. Nowhere in the world, nor any other religion, was willing to do that. When the americans got into war with the barbary pirates of northern africa in the 18/19 century the americans said to the muslims that they have to stop with slavery. They replied that they see no reason to because there is nothing wrong for a muslim to have slaves that are not muslims. Why should we change it they replied, it was always this way and allah is fime with it. If its human intellect like you said why did it only happen in parts of the world influenced by christianity? And still today existst in other parts of the world. By the way, I dont believe in a god.

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

Tom Holland is the world's most accessible and brilliant modern historian

[@ajvelichko6294]

This guy makes me want to read a history book. Indeed I shall.

[@marylynslick6801]

Wonderful video!

[@BenCarnage]

It would've been even better if he had given any level of detail on how he links exact words and actions originating with the gospels and/or paul to the foundation of the western world's most important elements. If it's due to editing, you really should've left one concrete claim in. He thinks all these great things originate with early christian ideas because...?

[@AidanAidanAAA]

I am very, very pleased.

[@BossHossGuitars]

Jesus said “Before there was Abraham, I Am”.

[@halohair1118]

@Rodney James actually He is. The correct translation is Ego eimi which literally means i am. Ego eimi is used when Jesus says things like "I am the way the truth and the life." Or "I am the door" or "I am the good Shepard". So we see the phrase is being used to Him saying I Am. Do you remember what God told Moses His name was in Exodus? I AM. He was calling Himself YHWH. The Jews recognized this and immediately tried to stone Him and said He made Himself equal to God.

[@MrAzharz72]

T. Holland research were so poor, but I don't know why ppl keep inviting him as person to listen too.

[@mickqQ]

According to the bible .... hardly an objective attempt at a history book. Do you ever wonder why in mark , Luke , Matthew .... Jesus never refers to himself as god , Yet in John the last gospel , he’s shouting it from the rooftops You would think Jesus saying “ oh by the way I’m a god “ Would be noteworthy .... yet it’s not mentioned in the first 3 gospels . As a matter of fact it took almost 300 years for Christians to decide who Jesus was , and what his relationship to god was .

[@halohair1118]

@@mickqQ Jesus called himself the Son of Man in the other gospels though and that was a direct reference to the book of daniel the Jews understood was a divine being. In daniel the son of man received praise and worship. That is why when they asked Him if he was the messiah and he said you will see the son of man coming in power and glory they said he committed blasphemy. In the old Testament the messiah is called the Everlasting Father and Wonderful God. The Jews in Jesus time knew that the Messiah was from the essence of God and therefore called Him God, even in the old Testament. They probably didn't point that out in the other gospels because it was already common knowledge and understood. The gospels originally circulated among Jews until it spread to gentiles, where certain things had to be explained. In the first 3 gospels, it is likely they didnt literally record Jesus saying He is the I AM because it was already understood that is who the Messiah was to Jews. Once it spread to gentiles, they needed to go into depth the nature of who Jesus was since the gentiles didn't literally see or walk with Jesus nor did they grow up in an environment that already understood who jesus was supposed to be.

[@mickqQ]

Afro Man 11 Jews referred to themselves as sons of god , and sons of man . The jews were not convinced that Jesus was a god let alone the messiah . The gospel of John is the only time Jesus refers to himself as god . It’s in the last gospel , the reason it’s not in the first 3 , is because the religion was evolving . It was around the 3rd century before the Christians finally decided what the relationship between Jesus and god actually was . The gospels are apologetic books , written to convert mostly pagans , In order to get them to convert , they had to convince the pagans that Jesus was a better god than the gods they already believed in. This is why the stories about Jesus were exaggered

[@jonathanhill5926]

Is it not an amalgam of ideas from classical & christian worlds ?

[@MrHawkMan777]

Christianity really was a miracle to the people of the Roman world when it was introduced. It gave them a religion that told them that they actually meant something and had value to the universe. The ancient religions were not like this and promoted steep aristocratic rule and glory over the suffering of other people. This is why the people of the Roman world converted so quickly, as well as the Germanic, Slavic and remaining Celtic tribes not long after. The ancient world had many great qualities that we use today but the religious beliefs of antiquity should not be glorified, as some modern agnostic/atheists like to do.

[@bobs4429]

The point Mr Holland is trying to make is that we should be grateful for societal changes brought about by Christianity. Yes, it certainly did, but there are valid counter arguments and as such it is merely an interesting perspective and so proves nothing. Paul also wrote about the subjugation of women. See passages in First Corinthians and Timothy for example. To lessen the impact some argue that these were not actually written by Paul. So either Paul is responsible for our lessor treatment of women today or the New Testament cannot be trusted to be accurate.

[@bobs4429]

@The Macallan Entertaining emojis aside. I only need to cite the disparity between salaries for identical jobs held by men and women in the US as proof that my assertion is, in fact, correct.

[@bobs4429]

@The Macallan Nice try at justification, but it is not convincing. If the Apostle was so radical then why aren't his statements made in the positive sense. Why do his letters not appear to advocate for MORE authority for women. All translations I've read clearly have the negative sense, that his purpose was to limit the role of women.

[@bobs4429]

@The Macallan LOL!!! Very funny. You should go into stand up comedy!

[@bobs4429]

@@NSOcarth Let's drill down on one of Mr. Holland's points. He states that free Roman men could have sex with anyone anytime and credits Christianity for a morality that, rightly, see this as bad. I have only to point out that one of the Buddhist precepts is to refrain from improper sexuality, which no one argues is derived in any way from Christianity. Millions practice Buddhist principles. While fewer than those that profess Christianity, one only has to look at the divorce rate among Christians and sexual scandals to see that more healthy/moral sexual behavior is not uniquely Christian. I humbly submit that the reason you (and Mr. Holland) see no valid counter arguments is because your Christian worldview has blinded you to them and therefore you see all that is good within your particular belief system.

[@bobs4429]

@@NSOcarth Wow. So much projection ...

[@jagathjayasena]

yes, the western Christian values come from the Gospel!

[@majmage]

*Jagath,* Well not all of them. As others have pointed out in this comments section: western civilization no longer supports slavery (unlike Leviticus 25:44-46) and generally lets women speak and teach (unlike 1 Timothy 2:11-12). Even if they had, so what? Do you have non-fallacious evidence that god exists (or a demonstrably superior path to knowledge apart from knowledge)? None of the 140+ theists I've asked has managed to provide even one piece of evidence for god.

[@theohunter3748]

@@majmage Read the New Testament

[@majmage]

@@theohunter3748 What's that got to do with any of the points I made? 1. The New Testament doesn't change the Bible's stance on slavery ("slaves, obey your earthly masters") or women (the 1 Tim verse I cited). 2. The New Testament is _a claim_ about gods existing, but is not _evidence_ of gods existing (unless you feel Harry Potter books are evidence Harry Potter exists?) To be clear, I have in fact read the entire New Testament (and all the story-like books of the Old). So it's particularly unhelpful that your comment is so vague.

[@reeb9016]

@@majmage Would tou say there is a difference between "read" and "study"? It does make a huge difference. When you study it's like seeing all that is going on below the surface water of the ocean. Reading is just the surface. Study takes transports you from your modern comfortable world back to ancient times. See what I'm saying? Lattes didn't exist back then.

[@majmage]

@@reeb9016 What's _that_ got to do with any of the points I made? There _is_ a difference, but does studying lead us to conclude the Bible doesn't support slavery or oppose women teachers? No. So why bring it up? It gets worse if you think careful study _would_ overturn those teachings, because at that point you're just reinterpreting the Bible to mean _whatever_ you want. Obviously that's dangerous because it can lead to things like, _"Well god SAID we shouldn't murder, but if we examine how god ACTS, he kills people all the time throughout the Bible and so clearly because god is good it must be good to kill people sometimes..."_ Do _you_ have evidence god exists? Since that earlier comment (over a year ago) I'm now up to 300+ theists I've asked for evidence. Still no evidence. You would think that these would be the people _most likely_ to have a valid reason for believing in god, and yet when you ask them for that reason they cannot provide it.

[@EdKidgell]

Insightful

[@mrcoolsame5201]

John 16:13 “but when he has come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you in all the truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatever he hears he shall speak, and he shall announce to you things to come.” The Quran starts with “in the name of God most ….”.

[@manjulavk7634]

OH, human rights!!! you talk about human rights, how do you explain the cruel rule of Britishers in India, Indians are not human??

[@JRobbySh]

The British treated the Irish as badly.

[@samuelmorales2344]

Yes. Americans knew the British Empire too and fought them too. They were also Christian too and who encouraged the disbanding of colonial powers? It was the United States as the new superpower after WWII. The question is, did Christian theology necessarily create the British Empire? According to Jesus no. Now for an example of what theology can do and how it affects morality, just Google the single word "dalit" in Google Search. Christians were the first who fought for the rights of others as an organized movement. They also created the first welfare system because according to their theology, everyone is created equal under God. That every human should be treated with dignity.

[@borneandayak6725]

Christianity will rise again, halleluyah 😍😍😍

[@UWillSee83]

Panglima Dusun It might, after the current state of the modern world has made it to the cliff and leapt to its death.

[@majmage]

*Panglima,* Will it? Should it? What non-fallacious evidence demonstrates god exists? And if there is no evidence of the core claim of the Bible (that a god exists), why believe any of the supernatural claims it makes?

[@angelicajose2024]

Yeahhh😍😍😍it's rising & Islam is losing its battle ... especially Christian prince plays a major role 😂 & now the growth of Islam is declining Praise to our lord almighty

[@randomfandom33]

Nice, haven't heard of Holland speak before. Can you release the full video? Dying to see a conversation between two heavyweights like these.

[@PremierUnbelievable]

Jimmy Issa full thing this Friday :-)

[@denverbritto5606]

He's spoken previously on this same podcast, that was awesome too.

[@jordanmielbrecht3360]

YESSSSSS NT WRIGHT

[@sanctrefine6425]

Actually - Democracy ONLY goes back to the Greeks as an idea. But THEIR idea of Democracy NEVER influenced ANYONE. It NEVER caught on ANYWHERE that the Greek Empire of Alexander spread. In fact, Aristotle, Alexander's teacher, hated democracy. Because it "killed" his mentor's (Plato) mentor (Socrates). And Aristotle taught that Democracy was a "failed version" of the Rule of the Multitudes. So Greek Culture never taught or held any value in Democracy. The ONLY reason we know about Democracy today, is because the Reformers - particularly John Knox of the Church of Scotland, came up with a governance system that he called "Popular Sovereignty" as a model for the styling of the Church authority & accountability structure through synod & assembly & session & council. But Knox designed that system from the OT Leadership Structures of Israel vis-a-vis the leaders of 10s, and 50s, and 100s, that the Children of Israel were supposed to "select from amongst yourselves" in Exodus 18:21 & Numbers 11:16. The Americans later picked up on that structure, as the basis for their Constitution. Enlightenment scholars seeing this later, did not like the Biblical connections. And so renamed the "Popular Sovereignty" as "Democracy" after the Greek ideas. But that's not where Knox got his inspirations from. Nor anyone else in history at that time. They thought of it later, of course. But by that time Popular Sovereignty had already taken off in America. And the French had already copied them. And most the rest of north-west Europe copied the French. And so NONE of them owed ANY of their inspiration, to the Greeks.

[@qiukezhong3452]

I don't want to argue with you about the details, just think even the Greek democracy was not the origin of modern democracy, the name itself has inspired enough people to defend the so-called modern democracy throughout its history.

[@Jessie_Helms]

Once I really started studying history I slowly realized just how sexist, tyrannical, and racist the Romans and Greeks were. Caesar is pretty much either barely known at all or favorably viewed by the lay person, but he’s really so evil by our society’s standards. A slaver, genocider, manipulated loopholes in the law, and was overly militaristic. I am deeply Christian, and also greatly love philosophy, so it’s so interesting to see a historian that isn’t even Christian speaking on how impactful Paul was.

[@Jessie_Helms]

R S the imperialists who used Christianity as a tool did those things. Nothing in the Bible says to do that. In fact, if you’ve ever heard of Bartolome De Las Casas, the people who actually paid attention to the Bible opposes those very systems. That’s like blaming capitalism, democracy, and republics for the American’s Vietnam atrocities. Yes, the people doing them we’re all of those things, but you can’t say, “because this person voted for a democrat and then raped a villager the Democratic Party supports rape.” Evil is done regardless of, sometimes in spite of, the systems and moral codes of people.

[@marksmith4518]

See, when i hear sexist, tyranical, racist I would sooner think of christian history than Greek/Roman. Rome was a very diverse and accepting place and known for its racial diversity and religious acceptance. War mongerers perhaps, but bettered the world for it. As for christians, what about the holy war? Modern slavery (slavery is commended in the Bible) and the fact that women werent allowed to vote in a chrisitian dominated society until very recently. Rome and Greece has the argument of ignorance to fall back on for their sins. This all happened thousands of years ago. Whats the excuse for christianity?

[@Jessie_Helms]

@@marksmith4518 are you kidding me? Have you read the old Greek myths? Kidnapping your wife was a normal thing. Whole cities were run off slave economies (Sparta), there’s absolutely things to admire about both but there’s more than their fair share to revile as well. As for “holy war” historians have shown time and time again Christianity was just a thinly veiled excuse for a war that they wanted anyway if you’re referring to the Crusades. You could easily argue the same thing about most religious wars, be they Abrahamic or pagan

[@marksmith4518]

@@Jessie_Helms myths werent real, as for the slaves i cant argue that, but that didnt change when christianity prevailed. Holy war was an example, but there are countless examples of religious wars centered around christianity (the troubles most recent). Greek and roman culture could be barbaric, but their religions never made them so. During the triumph of christianity pagans were flayed alive in some cases

[@Jessie_Helms]

@@marksmith4518 True but the myths were based off the morality of the land. Overly Sarcastic Productions & LindeyBeige have done great videos on the topic. Also, you’re using a double standard if you think the religion is irrelevant to the way the society behaved for pagans but “Christian” governments doing very unchristian things is still the fault of Christianity.

[@flaviusbelisarius7517]

I like the sound of the world he describes in the intro

[@natanbridge]

Wow! I've never thought about Paul in this way. I wonder if it is true, as a matter of fact, that the notion of a universal obligation to be compassionate and caring to all humans - to observe "the golden rule" universally - is absent from the ancient classical world except for Christianity (and possibly Judaism). Is it really true that Christianity introduced this idea to the Greco-Roman world?

[@thcrmsnchn1056]

The idea of the golden rule has existed in one form or another in dozens of ancient civilizations all around the world. Just one example is a quote from Seneca the Younger, a Roman philosopher who lived in the first century CE: "Treat your inferior as you would wish your superior to treat you." Some level of empathy and respect for your fellow man is needed for any society to function properly. One Society may show greater empathy and compassion to a greater number of its denizens than another, but to assert that any one of them invented such concepts as the golden rule is simply ridiculous. Holland also compared apples to oranges with his Julius Caesar point. He compared one of the cruelest actions of an exceptionally cruel human being with the rosiest writings of another, that being Paul, and used them both as exemplars of entire societies. Why he didn't bring up Paul's blatant misogyny or his deranged screeds against homosexuals and Jews is anyone's guess. Maybe he just conveniently forgot to read that parts of the Epistles that directly inspired the inquisition and the witch hunts.

[@mezzotesta7402]

@@thcrmsnchn1056 Thank you!

[@JRobbySh]

@@thcrmsnchn1056 Read What Paul says about pagan thought in the opening to Romans.

[@samuelmorales2344]

@@thcrmsnchn1056 If Paul did not have his questions answered by Jesus, he relied on his Greek background, which is indeed thought women as logically inferior. Christianity does not say much about the role of women in the Church. It doesn't say whether they are beneath men, should serve men, or anything like that. You are showing your bias. Jesus was no misogynist, that would not be consistent with his message. But one thing for sure from the Gospels, the first people to "witness" the resurrection of Jesus were women. Now in other religions, the testimony of women are less trustworthy than men. That should tell you something. The moral compass of Europe, the USA, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, etc, is indeed very Christian. We have human rights because of Christian culture. It sprang from Christianized culture. It sprang from no where else. Hammurabi did not have equality the way Christians conceptually had it. Ancient peoples did not simply have their religion tell them what to do or what to think. Ancient peoples like the Greeks observed what is apparent such as women being weaker thus the assumption is they lesser than men. That slavery was justified because some peoples were better as slaves, etc. These conclusions were derived from a time and place using reason. Jesus movement was a counter to these established assumptions. Women are weaker than men, that is true. But what makes them equal to men? From a atheist, no rational explanation. From a Christian, because God, simple as that. "Christianized" atheist believe they got their own morals and they are very rational people but they are not. It is bizarre and even funny because arguing for rationality with irrational arguments.

[@IanEisenberg]

To defend my Christianity being the origin or morals I'm just going to ignore the Code Of Hammurabi... M'kay? Yeh, truly unbelievable.

[@IanEisenberg]

@R Berger you are mistaken in my beliefs. I was being ironic. There is no supernatural origin or reason for morality. There is no evidence of god.

[@chimmy___]

And now the Satanists are trying to undo Pauls work!

[@JRobbySh]

Key to his comments is the word “alien”. Gibbon wrongly thought that Romans like Caesar and Cicero and Marcus Aurelius beloved to a class of persons like himself. In fact such people were alien to his experience. He was used to corrupt Christians and thought Roman cruelty to be also a corruption of ancient philosophy. But the Romans were as deeply cruel as any Nazi scientist. Educated as Chamberlain was in Gibbon’s evaluation of Classical thought, he could not grasp the fact that Hitler, despite his petty bourgeoisie exterior, was alienated from western morality and a return to men like Caesar, Crassus and Pompey.

[@silveriorebelo8045]

the Zionists you mean...

[@majmage]

​@@silveriorebelo8045 The lack of evidence that any gods exist, you mean... (We've simply learned that evidence is the only reliable way of knowing truth, and after all this time we still don't have sufficient evidence to justify believing in a god.)

[@majmage]

@R Berger 1. What contradiction? Name it. Be specific. 2. What misleading terms? Name them. Be specific. 3. When did I say or suggest theism was religion? I didn't do that. I was talking about belief in a god (and that's theism). 4. Why didn't you provide evidence justifying belief in a god? I had explained that's the only thing that would justify belief, but in your reply mysteriously you didn't justify belief. 5. Worse, you've implied your logic is fundamentally broken. You've implied that something must exist if we can't prove it doesn't exist. So then I just have to tell you about the Undetectable Anti-Deity Donut which prevented all gods, and _by your own "logic" your inability to disprove it means it must exist._ So then either (A) you agree that by your own "logic" gods can't exist because you can't disprove the Donut so it must exist, or (B) you agree with me that beliefs are justified by evidence: evidence the idea is true. Well the idea we're talking about is "god(s) exist". Either you have evidence justifying belief in a god, or belief isn't justified. Those are the only two options.

[@tread_well_frank2772]

I had a religion history professor who was a self confessed christian in the secular sense . But he said as with all religions there is much mythology of who wrote the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and even Jesus . He is a elder man with almost 60 years of study of the history of religions this professor , and knows the ancient Latin, Greek and Arabic fluently and has traveled much to the Holy Lands to study historical documents about the old, new testaments and the Quran . In his conclusion there were many writers and preachers for the New Testament . That they were reformers of the meaner more capricious God of the old testament . Jesus was called the prince of peace in part because he did away with the old practice of an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth with once hit on one side of the face, turn the other cheek to be maimed . The men and perhaps some women who wrote and preached it by ascribing it to a probably mythical figure called Jesus, were the Roman eras non violent civil disobedience founders . Ghandi used it to great effect(whether that was also in the older Hindu practice i have no idea . (By the way one of the original commandments from the old testament that is : thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife , included thou shalt not covet thou shalt not neighbor's slaves either ) . Since civilization began most of the people were kept illiterate and poor . Religion was always twisted by men who had the power and wealth addiction (as the masters of us still do today , but tell us we must go to war for democracy when in fact it is to enrich the few by controlling resource rich countries resources). Religion and beliefs have always been used to animated the masses to kill and be killed for a false or misinterpreted ism for the benefit of a few . I must say I know little about the Quran . I have read that the real or mythical prophet or Muhammad wrote damning the pagan practice(and there were many pagan cults) of burying alive a female baby until a male was born . He or those who wrote the Quran said that burying a female baby alive or killing it and burying it , will send the parent or person to hell for eternity . This horrible practice was made to sound like something from their Pagan god when in fact it was a way to have more males to work the land, do metallurgy and such like . There is some confusion about Jihad . Originally it meant a just war against an oppressor or a just protest against an oppressor or some unjust laws . As with christianity, Wealthy masters in Islamic lands also misinterpreted this to mean for example and war is needed so the other will not wipe us out , but again war is used for wealth pillage by the few from foreign lands or kingdoms and the like . While perhaps not in the bible or by false interpretation of some scriptures there has been the practice of a "just war" in the christian belief . ... to be continued . remind me please with a reply . To put it in a temporary nutshell religion or even a secular ism like democracy has always been used by the super wealth, corporations and such to start wars for their benifit Jumping ahead for a minute . The Syrian civil war . Before this war began Christians, Muslims, Druze, et al lived in great harmony and were protected by Assad . Muslims and Christians would join in celebration of Advent to Christmas and Ramadan together...to be continued with sources . Again , please reply if i let this go and do not continue .

[@davebashford3753]

This wasn't directly about "Christian Morals" although he did mention the idea and used it as a base assumption, therefore I feel justified in asking a question that has tickled me for quite a while. Given that most people would not want to claim anything in the old testament as an exemplar moral (genocide, slavery, sacrifice, scapegoating, etc.) and those things that are upheld as good morals predate christianity (the golden rule, don't murder, etc) or are completely trivial (the ten commandments, the sermon on the mount, etc), what exactly is "Christian Morals"? I'm looking for something that is generally considered good, was actually introduced and attested to by the bible, and wasn't widely assumed by most other societies before the biblical introduction.

[@davebashford3753]

Somehow I don't think one instance of "don't condone genocide" in the 20th century, even if you could tie it to christians, is enough to counteract the millions that are slaughtered in the bible. And did you actually try to justify genocide because "the Canaanites immolated their children"? That, to me, is the epitome of "christian morals" and nothing to be bragging about in public.

[@MrUfojunkiedavid]

Unfortunately this came off as academia psychobabble

[@blamtasticful]

I need more context from the interview. I don't see where he gets the notion of rights from Paul. I have read Paul extensively and there is much more about submitting then there is about rights. If anything he states that we've been "bought with a price" and that in a way you should love others because they are god's property as you are. This isn't rights based thinking.

[@humanmortal6805]

blamtasticful: if you have read Paul extensively then you have read the egalitarian passage in his letter to the Galatians about how in Christ there is neither Jew/Greek, male/female, master/slave but ALL of equal worth - revolutionary stuff. You have also read how we are ALL sinners saved by grace - so get rid of all those eastern religions preaching that the "untouchables" deserve their poverty in life due to previous Karma: ever wonder why social justice movements did not start there. And you are cherry picking and distorting - we have been "bought with a price" is his metaphorical way of communicating in terms people understand, where our citizenship really lies, with God, as Paul states in his letter to the Colossians. I could go on and on and on but I hope you get the point.

[@terrencemedders1867]

Paul speaks pointedly on being free through faith. Free to make mistakes by being redeemed through blood(which is where he speaks to being bought by a price). Free to love and to be human in that manner desired by God which is perfectly modelled in Christ. The idea is that kind of qualities ascribed to us as expressions of divinity within the text are the spiritual ideas that eventually lead to the political notions of the rights of the individual which are unalienable. Political themes are spiritual themes dragged into the arena of men deciding how to govern themselves instead of simply working out how to live.

[@blamtasticful]

Human Mortal I have read that passage. There is a reason why you can't point to much else. I suggest looking to 1 Corinthians and the instructions to women as well as Ephesians. Again this is not rights based thinking. This is you have a duty to obey god and god wants you to be nice; oh and by the way women you have to submit of course. Romans also talks a lot about submitting to authority which goes counter to the American Revolution. Terrence Paul talks a lot more about how we are guilty and how we should serve. Freedom is defined as serving Christ. History shows us that individual rights based thinking is a later development that went against hundreds of years of conventional Christian thought.

[@terrencemedders1867]

blamtasticful, yes but the idea of servitude to God is equated to proper "freedom". Freedom is something everyone can throw their own definition at and hope it sticks. Paul's argument is that freedom is whatever pattern of living we are designed to ultimately perform, which again, is modelled in Christ. Servitude to Christ is freedom IN God. The problem with hearkening back to the hundreds of years of "conventional Christian" thought is that the very moment the faith touched the state, the waters got murky and all sorts of silly stuff began the blatantly deviates from the text because once the state becomes involved, concessions will be demanded, and to the Church's shame, it gave them. Christ and Paul teach us not to follow the world. There's not a form of government in existence that isn't worldly to the core, and a pollutant therein. I would very much recommend that one go back to the first three centuries before Rome adopted the spiritual faith and turned it into a religion. And let's not forget that the NT documents are all dated to WITHIN the century which is crazy, and coupled with hundreds(and thousands in some cases) of copies, which lends them a tremendous degree of veracity insofar as standard historical documents go.

[@blamtasticful]

Terrence no offense but it doesn't sound like you've done a lot of deep historical research on the subject. You sound like me when I was excited about the things of god as an evangelical youth who enjoyed big concert gatherings where we sang about how awesome god's love is. That's a modern development my friend. All you are doing is sharing your faith hoping to convert me. I appreciate the heart behind the sentiment but an objective analysis of these documents sadly gives a much more problematic assessment. Also sexism is very present in the Early church Fathers.

[@barrycampion9679]

All scholars and historians use christianaty as a reference point , it's that accurate

[@barrycampion9679]

@tim hamat immovable foundation, like a wax seal stamp,

[@jgoeg8922]

I'm doubtful of the "rights of the individual" coming more from Paul than Greek philosophy.

[@johnstewart7025]

Wasn't 18th century England or America unbelievably cruel, also?

[@mozdickson]

John Stewart yes. Your point?

[@johnstewart7025]

adventuresinbelieving young guy is saying ancient world was foreign because we are Christian. His proof is that life was cruel. However 18th century was appalling. He needs better proof than that.

[@johnstewart7025]

He is laying the renaissance at the feet of Paul and not antiquity. Heresy.

[@denverbritto5606]

not anywhere close to ancient rome

[@johnstewart7025]

Denver Britto Hitler Stalin mao 20th ancient regime and slavery 18th

[@WORDFLESHGOD]

From God all life proceeding.

[@MarmaladeINFP]

Read widely about ancient societies, cultures, religions, teachings, writings, etc. You'll quickly realize that almost everything we inherited from Christianity first came from outside the Abrahamic tradition. And even with Jewish influence, ancient Jews inherited almost everything from other traditions as well. This includes understandings such as a universal cosmos, a shared humanity, natural law, liberty of the soul, martyrdom, democracy, republicanism, science, philosophy, salvific godmen narratives, virgin mother worship, etc.

[@IAlephI]

Why would God sacrifice himself? - To save you from sin If someone knew his sins are handled off with no accountability from his side, he could continue sinning. - No, because he has to believe in God and repent. Otherwise it doesnt work. Why not save from sin (forgive) based on belief in God and repentance from the first place, why would God sacrifice himself? Continuous loop.. There is no real reason for God to die. I guess once you make God into a man, it is only natural that God will die. That is when you realise that such concept of God is more of a roman background, one where mortal gods and demi gods exists. Nothing like the one supreme God according to the ibrahimic faith. Here is a list of few attributes, one considers basic understanding of God. - God is the ultimate authority - God is immortal - God is all powerful - God is all knowledgeable - God is independent (does not need anyone or anything) Such common understanding can be found in judaism, christianity and islam. The concept so far is simple and logical. If we were to contrast man on the other hand. - Man is not the ultimate authority. - Man is mortal. - Man has no power or knowledge by himself. - Man is absolutely dependent on God. According to jews and muslims.. God is God, and man is man. No confusion. According to trinitarians, Jesus was both God and man. Here is where the confusion arises. - God is both the ultimate authority but also subject to a higher authority. - God is immortal but also mortal. - God is all powerful but also powerless. - God is independent but also dependent. - God is all knowledgeable but also lacks knowledge. Is it logical? John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. One can choose to believe Jesus was a prophet sent by the only true God as it clearly states. Or choose to read into the text something which is not there, i.e he must have meant he is the only true God. Despite calling himself the one being sent and not the only true God. John 20:17 - my God and your God May God forgive us and guide us all.

[@Moshugaani]

_"But this is how God demonstrates his own love for us: the Messiah died for us while we were still sinners."_ - Romans 5: 8 It's all about God showing his love for his enemies. _"For God so loved_ *_the world"_* God loved us _before_ we loved Him. He loves everyone, not just the ones who repent and start serving Him in love or those who stop sinning. - - The whole passage, Romans 5: 1-11: _"The result is this: since we have been declared ‘in the right’ on the basis of faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus the Messiah. Through him we have been allowed to approach, by faith, into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate the hope of the glory of God._ _That’s not all. We also celebrate in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces patience, patience produces a well-formed character, and a character like that produces hope. Hope, in its turn, does not make us ashamed, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us._ _This is all based on what the Messiah did: while we were still weak, at that very moment he died on behalf of the ungodly. It’s a rare thing to find someone who will die on behalf of an upright person - though I suppose someone might be brave enough to die for a good person. But this is how God demonstrates his own love for us: the Messiah died for us while we were still sinners._ _How much more, in that case - since we have been declared to be in the right by his blood - are we going to be saved by him from God’s coming anger! When we were enemies, you see, we were reconciled to God through the death of his son; if that’s so, how much more, having already been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. And that’s not all. We even celebrate in God, through our Lord Jesus the Messiah, through whom we have now received this reconciliation."_

[@IAlephI]

Moshugaani Isn't God forgiveness is how he demonstrates his love for us? One would argue forgiveness is a better demonstration of love than insisting on a price to be paid. The parable of the prodigal son would be a different story had the father insisted on dying only so he could forgive his son which he loved so much and was waiting for him to return and realise the love and forgiveness the father had for him. In the parable of unmerciful servant, again forgiveness is demonstrated by the King showing mercy and pity on his servant and cancelling off his debt. It would have been different had the King sentenced himself for death to cancel off the debt of his servants. From the parable, do we learn to be like the unmerciful servant whom wouldn't forgive unless he received a price or the King whom despite the debts, showed mercy and forgiveness? Did the King settle off the debts by sentencing himself for death? I dont know about God sacrificing himself to demonstrate love. God has consistently revealed about his forgiveness and willingness to accept those whom repent and yearn to come back to him. Whether its jewish tradition, Jesus (pbuh) sayings, the Holy Quran, all carry the same message of God's love demonstrated through forgiveness, something which is consistent with our innate voice and common sense. That being said, your belief is your belief. Personally I see forgiveness in the parables of the unmerciful servant and the prodigal son, cant say i see sacrifice of the King or the Father in them. May God forgive us and guide us all.

[@Moshugaani]

This is my last message in this thread: I get it that you're just here to proselytize, so I doubt I could sway your opinions by posting a few comments. But I'm going to say that you really should read the New Testament to understand the significance of Christ's sacrifice in the atonement of sins. While Islam requires submission, the performance of the five pillars and a sufficient level of righteousness to be acceptable to Allah, it never gives the assurance that you're _good enough_ to not merit hell. While the Biblical view is that God offers us a way to atone for our sins. The covenant with Israel had its animal sacrifices, but since those were just a shadow for what was to come and they needed to be performed continuously, God offered the perfect fulfillment of the atonement sacrifice in Christ's blood. In Islam, God's love is contingent on obedience; in Christianity, God's love precedes obedience.

[@IAlephI]

Moshugaani Im not looking to convert you into any religion nor am i against listening to whatever you have to say. As long as you are willing to hear a counter argument and assess for yourself and you allow me to asses myself, basically a discussion, if you don't mind, lets go for it. There is no need accuse one another of not wanting to listen just because we disagree on certain topics. If im asking you to listen to what i have to say, i can at least allow you the opportunity to agree or disagree. Im not looking forward to criticize your belief, it may seem that way as in a discussion im providing answers that go against your beliefs, however i assure im not looking to have a go at your beliefs. I dont see how mocking other people's beliefs bring me closer to God. A healthy discussion is the way to address the differences in beliefs. Whatever points i raise regarding sin or forgiveness, im only raising them up from biblical understanding or logical ones. For example when i brought up the parables of unmerciful servant and prodigal son, i brought them up which is supporting forgiveness without the king or the father sacrificing themselves in order to forgive, the parables are from Jesus himself. Whatever arguments i raise, i will try to support it with Jesus (pbuh) sayings. I hope you can do the same. In any case, if you disagree, let me know where im wrong. Whether we agree or disagree is to worry about after providing a logical valid argument. People have to the freedom to think given by God for a reason, our job is convey the good news. Judgement of wanting to listen or not, God judges best, not us. Peace.

[@davids2368]

As an athiest who somewhat agrees with Tom Holland, I think we have a problem of how do we seperate the cult from the culture in a way that preserves the good stuff from Christianity whilst getting rid of the dogmatsm and all the evils that have come from it. That can only be achieved by removing one ideal of the cult at a time and observing the effect. I really think if we keep the inner thoughtful spirituality of Christianity without the dogma of Revelations for example we can move into a time in which people are fulfilled by all the advantages of modern science and fulfilled spiritually or psychologically. People are clearly searching for a cult to follow in the lack of one in the West and material reason doesn't give most people enough meaning to carry on in life. Whatever the reason for that is, society has a problem and I think its on an individual level. Anyway as long as people aren't joining the political cults or overtly political religious cults; I think we'll have the signs of a healthy society

[@MojoPin1983]

David S, you’re begging the question. When you say there is such a thing as evil, aren’t you assuming there is such a thing as good (which you affirmed)? What is good? One man’s good is another man’s evil. Some cultures embrace cannibalism, while others condemn it. Whose morals are superior? Who are we to judge? If you acknowledge the reality of good and evil, then aren’t you assuming that there is a moral law, on the basis of which to distinguish between both?

[@carvalhotchipepe7293]

This is what happen when a person is dedicated to a brainwass crusade or does not know what he is talking about: This is Paul talking: A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

[@martinchristian597]

he is talking in larger context, bigger picture. u midgets need not concern

[@1XxmontyxX1]

Lol I agree with Paul! 30yr old single libtart women are responsible for the current Islamic caliphate into europe and growth of totalitarianism in the USA. The least insane women is a happily married mum with children.

[@MindbodyMedic]

I went from being raised Catholic to being militant atheist to actually reading history, appreciating the origins of things we take for granted. now I'm ''culturally christian'' because in a way, we all are

[@mickqQ]

Do you think the Christians formed views in a vacuum , You should read some stoic philosophers

[@MindbodyMedic]

@@mickqQ obviously

[@mickqQ]

@@rberger7846 Where did he get it?

[@DennisFang1]

This argument doesn’t hold up when you consider that the celebrated military exploits and slaughter from Caesar’s time didn’t stop in the age of Christianity. Justinian, one of the most pious emperors is infamously one of the most bloodthirsty, killing tens of thousands in his own capital city to hold onto power, and later leading to the deaths of untold Italians as he retook the homeland. In Christian medieval times, feudalism and the exploitation and selling of the serfs can hardly be called dignified, and although I don;t know much about Islam, I’m pretty certain slavery existed there too. Although Christianity was certainly peaceful in origin, the moment it became a state religion, it instantly morphed to fit the immoral and exploitative nature of these ancient societies.

[@DennisFang1]

@Spinoza10 so much for Christianity and its commandments to not kill then