Umbreon vs Espeon - Who beats Crystal faster?

Playthrough Rules:
1. Only my starter in battle
2. No items in battle (except held items)
3. No glitches or exploits*
4. No Double-Team TM before level 100*
Other rules:
-- My Pokemon have perfect genetics to ensure fair comparison between species.
-- *Pokeballs & Pokedolls are allowed in battle
-- *The badge-boost glitch is not restricted at all
-- *Skipping the Rocket Hideout & Marowak is allowed
-- I play the game at 4x game speed (238 frames per second)
-- My Pokemon has perfect DVs
-- The bike is allowed
-- Skipping the bike is not allowed
-- Saving between league members is allowed
-- If the solo Pokemon faints and I choose to blackout it counts towards my reset counter
-- I can pause the game & timer to take breaks
-- The footage is sped up / slowed down to match the pace of my narration
*Double-Team:
-- Almost every Pokemon can learn Double-Team through TM
-- The TM can be purchased in Celadon
-- Using it would centralize the meta
-- Every Pokemon would use it to overcome tough battles at lower levels
-- It raises evasion
-- It triggers the badge boost
-- Banning the TM allows Pokemon who learn it through level up to use it
-- I believe evasion is part of Pokemon and shouldn't be banned entirely
-- I don't want the videos to all be double-team spam though, that's not fun or entertaining
Terms:
-- STAB
-- Same-Type-Attack-Bonus - a 1.5x damage multiplier
-- Stat Experience
-- The Gen1&2 equivalent of effort values. You can invest in all stats until they max
out at 65535
-- DVs or Determinate Values
-- The Gen1&2 equivalent of IVs (individual values), these range from 0-15
Resources:
-- Gen 1 Stat Calculator: pycosites.com/...
-- All Trainer Pokemon have IVs (DVs) of 89888 (hp, atk, def, spd, spc)
-- All Trainer Pokemon have EVs of 0
-- Gen 1 Crit Rates: www.smogon.com...
-- Crit rate is determined by dividing base speed by 512
-- High crit rate moves determine their rate by dividing base speed by 64
-- All crits have a 1/256 to fail, even if the rate is 100%
-- Crits don't multiple damage by 2, it's a formula based on level
Illustrations
Sarina Vail: / sarinavail
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/ scottsthoughts
~~Connect with me~~
Twitter
/ psychicflying
Email
[e-mail]

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Regarding Espeon's Hidden Power Type: Ice is required for Lance and has the best general utility throughout the entire playthrough. Psychic does 75%-88.82% damage to the first two Dragonites and I need to avoid Thunder Wave at both of them. HP Ice manages Bayleef, Clair, Will, Crobat, Onix, Vileplume, and Lance. Regarding HP Fire & Water, these generally has significantly less impact due to the type matchups in the major battles of this game. They also don't materially impact the Lance fight. Espeon could use Curse for Snorlax. I did consider this. But I felt that it wasn't a good option because it cuts speed and exposes Espeon to powerful special attacks from Red's remaining Pokemon. With a Pokemon that is frail, that didn't seem like it was playing to it's strengths. Finally, lowering Accuracy and raising Evasion are completely different. Using Mud-Slap on Snorlax is not equivalent to setting up with Double Team. Because Evasion would have persisted throughout the rest of the fight. Accuracy helps against 1 Pokemon, Evasion helps against all Pokemon. That's why I restrict evasion and do not restrict accuracy.

[@TheLeviathan1293]

Something to consider about curse is, Espeon is not that frail when fighting special attackers.

[@jainabraina]

Espeon is nearly as specially bulky as Umbreon! If you look at Slowking, famously specially bulky, you'll find that Espeon has the same defensive stats on the special side. It's no slouch there!

[@graeff]

I'd try hp fighting, it would work well against dark types and snorlax :)

[@manemanen]

Maybe more Iron/hp up/protein investment for espeon next time dont know how many vitamins you feed in gen 2 in total but feel like you have a better red with the curse Stray since blastoise uses Rain dance alot and venasuar solarbeam or sunny day

[@gidan1128]

@@graeff HP fighting is physical - definitely not a good choice.

[@Will-ew8db]

Scott - Umbreon had Faint Attack in the Rocket fight vs. the Koffing and Weezing. It has slightly less power than Return, but it never misses. You would have easily won with using Faint Attack instead of Return.

[@tamlynloell]

And Koffing/Weezing have both less special defense

[@antoniocalado7101]

Came here to say the same 👍

[@chrisdaignault9845]

Yup

[@kalasrey1670]

I was screaming man, that was so painful for me to watch

[@mattulibarri6181]

I was also about to comment on that 😂 I thought maybe I was losing my mind and faint attack wasn't a move that always hit in gen 2

[@SaintoftheHonest]

Fun fact: Bite is the ONLY attack in the game that has ever changed between Phys/Spec TWICE. In gen 4, it went from Special to Physical, but people forget that it waz Normal in Gen 1, so it changed from Physical to Special in gen 2. On a related topic, losing access to Bite is gonna be huuuuuge for Espeon - you can learn it as Eevee before you evolve usually. I wonder what a Crystal run of all the Eeveelutions would be like if you started with the Lost Event Eevee for all three of them (Growth Eevee was distributed from irl Pokemon Centers in gen 2, but can't be transferred forward)

[@DennisTheZZZ]

I'm currently speedrunning Crystal with Espeon as Alt Main Pokémon (start with the Eevee from Bill, items in battles are allowed, regular speed), got a time of 3:51:53 though I'm sure it can have a time under 3:40:00. With Espeon evolving at level 36, thus having Bite and Psybeam before Chuck, it's a very fun route since you have to raise friendship as fast as possible. I even inspired some more experienced speedrunners to try it (I started about 2 months ago) and when you get that Espeon, it's pretty much a breeze.

[@calvinsimpson1301]

I don't think people forgot it was normal in gen 1 considering dark types didn't exist and bite did

[@tylerd1297]

@@DennisTheZZZ do you or anyone else have this posted on KZbin or twitch? Edit: nvm clicked your profile and see it lol tho I'd be interested if the other people is anyone I would know, or just personal friends of yours

[@tsawy6]

@@calvinsimpson1301 is the fact that bite is in gen 1 /that/ well remembered?

[@rikaniebangbang]

@@DennisTheZZZ I love your Espeon route! I've tried it myself and absolutely love it (though I add X Acc Zap Cannons for Blue and Red and switch on animations just because it's a fun animation). Took me a second attempt to figure out that Rare Candies need to be used in Goldenrod to get the extra friendship in the end haha

[@TyrantofChaos]

Great video so far, 44:05 in. I hate to say that I audibly said “Use Faint Attack, it won’t miss!” when you were fighting that team rocket member who used accuracy lowering moves.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

I think this is how everyone watching felt hahaha

[@TheDarkFiddler]

Umbreon has worse STAB options and is a weaker attacker. I don't see it taking the first slot, but I don't see it being a massive blowout.

[@adventureoflinkmk2]

Not to mention dark doesn't get a badge boost anyway

[@tylerd1297]

@@adventureoflinkmk2 Espeon doesn't get it until the 9th gym post league anyway and you have to go out of the way to get it. Still worth it though. A lot of people don't even know that there are Badge boosts in Gen 2 lol.

[@solidsnakeandgrayfox]

I've tried a challenge run with umbreon on crystal, it does great late game. Curse, moonlight, iron tail, mud slap, return. But it struggles with bugsy unless you have sand attack which can hit scyther, it struggles with Whitney, it can struggle severely with jasmine as mud slap is the only effective move up to that point.

[@adventureoflinkmk2]

@@tylerd1297 I had no idea there were badge boosts to specific types till I started watching Scott's Thoughts.. and where exactly do you get the dark type badge boost considering there is no dark gym leader

[@Carson_Neiss]

@@adventureoflinkmk2 There is no dark type badge boost. The only type without a boost.

[@gidan1128]

I feel like Espeon wouldn't have had so much trouble against Red if you had just ditched Psychic and given it the same curse treatment as Umbreon. It's sp def is good enough that it could have just set up against the Pikachu and then 2-shot the Snorlax with +6 return.

[@DennisTheZZZ]

Only problem is, that Pikachu likes to use Charm a lot, making setting up against it almost worthless.

[@sonshawnzy9975]

Curse is clutch on Umbreon . Curse substitute was a good tactic for me on Pokémon showdown

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Oh dear, would Espeon be good with rest, protect, curse, return?! Not another Pokémon…..

[@ShArifBraXtoN]

@@ScottsThoughtsPokemon I think that you could have kept psychic and ran curse, psychic, rest and return. Since Espeon already has good SpD, it could have survived a special attack and then gotten set up. I'd say probably set up on the Umbreon and not the Pikachu to avoid the charm. I know Espeon could cheese mud slap, but it probably would have been more consistent since you'd be super tanky even if you were missing attacks.

[@sonshawnzy9975]

@@ScottsThoughtsPokemon nah return is physical move . I mean I guess possibly but prob not

[@SourSensationZ]

Huge Umbreon fan. Thanks for all the content you're creating!

[@aquana5]

:)

[@crazyoliver7877]

I love Umbreon. My favorite.

[@ronaldgreig1748]

Umbreon has been my favorite pokemon since its release! Im so glad to see it do so well. Espeon probably could've got a faster time with curse, rest, return and psychic against red. You should do a short video testing that out.

[@Grimlax22493]

The reason the female picnicker is in the corner facing the wall because she's on the phone and back in the 00s when you were on your cell you tried to be in a somewhat quiet area to not disturb others and hear the person better. Cell phones in the early 00s were garbage lol

[@bobjob2514]

You've been pumping these out like crazy! Thank you. No lie. I got them for Pokedex reasons, but they didn't enter my main party until they were forced on me in Coliseum. Poor moon pup...

[@brucekelso2024]

This is my favorite challenge of yours so far. Umbreon is one of my 6 favorite Pokemon, you gave amazing respect to these two, and Pryce really is the worst.

[@sabrewulf6320]

I LOVE Umbreon. I got my very first one entirely by accident in Gold as well when it leveled up at night. I'd always play in bed after school. Back in the Crystal/Stadium 2 days, I had one with nearly perfect DVs (only Defense was 13). It solo'd the Round 2 Rival fight in Stadium 2 (i.e. Mewtwo, Lugia and Ho-Oh). Granted, they don't have the best movesets or AI, but it was a long and brutal battle and it felt SO rewarding. Moveset was Psychic, Faint Attack, Return and Moonlight IIRC, and Leftovers as the obvious held item. Back then I didn't know how busted Curse might have been for that fight. I was super happy that I could use one in Legends Arceus because of its stat system. Having effectively max EVs really helps tanky Pokémon in at least hitting hard enough to beat in-game stuff without sacrificing their tankiness.

[@moritzgattaz3884]

THANK YOU for this. Simply my two favorite additions in gen II!

[@codykaufman2835]

I feel Umbreon should’ve been considered better. The fact that it had no resets in the final play through shows how consistent it is. Espeon really relied on cheese and a little luck to finish the game. Just my opinion. Great video and big brain switching to hidden power ground

[@enitheway]

While I feel the same way, I also feel that since none of the other Pokémon (as far as I remember) had the treatment where the reset counter weighted more so Scott keeps the consistency up. In the bigger picture, results should be comparable and I'm glad Scott keeps it that way even if there are individual performances that should have exeptions.

[@panchovilla7355]

Umbreon also had significantly better luck especially with the critical against Bruno and flinch against poliwrath

[@codykaufman2835]

@@panchovilla7355 I wouldn’t say significantly better luck. I mean everyone has the same crit percentage in gen 2. Umbreon still could’ve won that without crits. Espeon really did need some luck to finish.

[@enitheway]

@@panchovilla7355 There's an argument that "having a better luck" is not same as "relying on luck." To clean that argument, there should be a follow-up video where Espeon tries to defeat Red with Curse.

[@craigyeah1052]

@@panchovilla7355 yeah I think Bruno was no problem but that Poliwrath was really lucky. It was a 4 hit ko without a crit and we can assume dynamic punch misses once and Umbreon will get 1 flinch. That being the case, especially factoring in the leer and chance of hitting itself, that's a fight Umbreon is more likely to lose than win.

[@GoldenDragonplay]

Watching this video a day late, but it sure is a nice birthday present to see two of my favourite Pokemon in one video xD

[@theSato]

Eevee boy summoning ritual complete, I'm here. Honestly these were about the results I expected. Espeon being fast and hitting hard meant it was almost destined to win, but Umbreon is also a chad pokemon. My "Luna" carries a lot of fights in my playthroughs!

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

I was thinking about you the other day, contemplating doing an Eevee run at some point again.

[@theSato]

@@ScottsThoughtsPokemon Haha, I'm touched, friend. I'm looking forward to Gen 2 (or 4+) runs with Eevee. Gen 3 too, but its the one gen I never played. I have some really funky ideas for Eevee-related runs as well, but would require some game hacking.

[@harrymanocha4533]

Hoo boy I've been looking forward to this one. Your timing is great; I've got covid this week and it really wiped me out for a few days. Glad of the top notch content to watch by myself

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Hope you’re fully recovered now!

[@harrymanocha4533]

@@ScottsThoughtsPokemon yessir fighting fit thanks to you

[@brandonkilbourne76]

Absolutely stoked to come back from work to see my fav eeveelutions head to head

[@brandonkilbourne76]

Pre finishing video: Hope Umbreon takes it even with the disadvantage. Used that guy ALL the time as a kid!

[@jesterbravo3317]

Excellent! I went looking for this video a few months ago and was disappointed that you hadn't done it yet. This is exactly what I wanted to see!

[@ktvx.94]

I think that for Whitney lowering her accuracy all the way might not be the most efficient way, since you want her to string a couple Rollouts so that she doesn't use Milk Drink. Also, I think that if you did 100 runs with each, Espeon would get the fastest single time but Umbreon would have a better average.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Agreed

[@jakeofjohto8285]

Dusk is the name ive always given my Umbreon! Umbreons been my fav pokemon since i accidentally evolved my eevee into it as a kid and it was also the first pokemon i ever bred with perfect ivs in HGSS. I still have that HGSS Dusk and bring him on all my journeys and save for 2 has every ribbon he can legally get. Thanks for your content as usual, makes long days at work or boring chore days a little more tolerable. Im happy to continue seeing your channel grow, alright imma keep watching the video now

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Glad you’re enjoying the vids!

[@min3bubblegum]

All I've seen while scrolling through comments is how much people like Umbreon, so here is the Espeon appreciation comment. Fun fact: Espeon is my second favorite eeveelution after Flareon. And Unbreon is actually the third one.

[@drewvfox]

Bug being super effective against Dark is one of many Kamen rider references in Pokemon.

[@fortello7219]

I saw the community poll and did a little solo run with Espeon myself. Except that I changed it's level up moves to replace swift with bite at level 30. And I'll tell you what, having access to a 60BP dark move on Espeon added a LOT of consistency. (Eevee normally learns bite at 30 in gen 2) I had plenty of PP and speed to skip several PCs and had a strong counter to all the psychic types that could wall my full special set. I took HP Electric (70BP) and used that against all the flying and water types. Psychic tended to be effective enough against Dragonite that it could pull through. Steelix was the hardest part of the whole run. Even at level 38 with mud-slap, steelix's iron tail hit 3 times in a row consistently and gave me 5 reset to that alone. I didn't directly time it but I think the whole run took about 6.5 hours of in game time. But I was mostly checking what difference bite made, and it was a LOT.

[@Xhalo1183]

We are in Johto that means we say hi to Denis. Hi Denis. I figured Espeon would win but it is good to know my boi Umbreon is hanging in there with a good consistent performance.

[@frostbite2890]

What a close result! I do wonder on Umbreon's time, though: you said you don't think you can get it much faster, but are you sure it's not possible to skip some more training throughout the playthrough and use rare candies earlier? After all, it seems like Red is very consistent and going to him at a lower level wouldn't cause issues.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

I think that might be worth exploring. My biggest fear is damage ranges against Bruno. That’s a key pivot point for Umbreon.

[@MrGoodCompany]

This video really surprised me. I didn't expect Umbreon to do this well. It's in my top 3 Eeveelutions, design-wise. So I am pleased lol.

[@dtayza5432]

Awesome to see the runs of my first two starter pokemon. I'm hoping Umbreon wins but I'm afraid that'll be tough with Espeon's damage output. Whichever way it goes I do want to say I am really enjoying the content this month. You have become my absolute favourite pokemon challenge runner and I want to thank you for all the time and effort you put into these videos. Keep up the great work!

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

You’re welcome. It’s a joy for me to make these videos!

[@kurtismacneil-allen4155]

The reason Morty used Gengar last is the same as how the Pidgey wouldn't use Mud-Slap because the AI determined Tackle would do more damage. Gengar's moves are Hypnosis, Dream Eater, Mean Look, and Shadow Ball. Two of which the AI reads as Umbreon being immune to. Three moves that can't damage Umbreon as Mean Look isn't and attacking move. This only leaves Shadow Ball which Umbreon resists. The AI guessed Night Shade would do the most damage and so chose Haunter instead.

[@tsunlastspock2206]

Thanks for giving Umbreon the run it deserves! I'm in shock that it was so close in the end, but Curse + Rest + Return is just *such* a strong set that feels like the devs intended it for Umbreon. In the end, glass cannons will be riskier but those risks will often pay off. The exp router being set up for GSC now should definitely help with future runs, too!

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Exp router is a game changer! (I used it for Skarmory too, it really really helped with that run.)

[@EMoth76]

> the devs intended it for Umbreon The only real difference between Umbreon and Espeon is that Umbreon's physical defence is higher, they both have the same attack. Just saying

[@LilHaze117]

I just don't understand why you used Return instead of Payback, you'd have STAB on a Pokémon counter that literally was made for Umbreon, there's no other Dark type Tank.

[@tsunlastspock2206]

@@LilHaze117 Payback doesn't exist in Gen 2 Crystal, the move was introduced in Gen 4. Dark STAB for Umbreon in Crystal would be Pursuit (60 BP after STAB), Faint Attack (90 BP after STAB) or Bite *if* he allowed it from its Eevee stage (90 BP after STAB). None of those get close enough to Return's 102 BP from maxed out friendship. Additionally, in Gen 2 Dark type deals Special damage, which means it doesn't get boosted by Curse, which boosts Att and Def while lowering Speed, and Umbreon doesn't have any boosting moves for its SpAtt stat.

[@LilHaze117]

@@tsunlastspock2206 Wow I really didn't remember it like that. I remember using Payback cause it was slow and bulky, and Moonlight to recover health but if that was HG/SS my bad. That combo carried me tho, that I do remember 😅

[@yifun6187]

oh you spoil me scott, dropping multiple versus videos so close to each other. thanks for the incredible work as always!

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

You're welcome

[@EmeralBookwise]

Wow... gotta say. I didn't think this would even be a race. I thought Espeon would be the hands down winner, but after that optimization it was surprisingly close. As Umbreon is also a personal favorite of mine, this makes quite happy.

[@TheOriginalJphyper]

These videos are perfect for passing the time. I've been snowed in for four days and my gaming PC broke down on day 1. You are helping to keep my sanity intact.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

That’s sounds terrible… hope it turned out already and the Pc got fixed!

[@TheOriginalJphyper]

@@ScottsThoughtsPokemon It did. Turns out the hard drive was failing. A technician managed to get everything transferred onto a solid state drive before it died completely. Now it's down again, but that's my own fault. I'm upgrading it and currently waiting for parts to be delivered. Thank you, COVID-19, for putting all of the local computer parts stores out of business...

[@lmr4403]

The times could be very different if elite 4 wipe means returning to the pokecenter, since Espeon's wipes on Karen would mean that you have to defeat the other e4's again.

[@CacophonyScamp]

Umbreon is legit my favorite Eeveelution. I played Pokemon at night a lot when I was supposed to be sleeping as a kid. (still do, it's a bad habit) so I got an Umbreon as my first Johto Eevee and named him Dusk. He was so cool.

[@MichaelJosephSpetsios]

I've been feeling this for a while, but seriously-Scott's videos are so much better than JRose. His consistency and commitment is far superior, and the optimized runs are so much more interesting. I love watching this channel grow!

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

I appreciate the praise, but I’m hesitant about the comparison. His stuff is great after all.

[@MichaelJosephSpetsios]

@@ScottsThoughtsPokemon he definitely gets OG status, but to me, I see you putting in way more effort. Thanks for the great content!

[@weebrahim]

I love how close this race was, Umbreon the best non legendary solo tank race pokemon!

[@SkyEevee]

My favorite Eeveelution and favorite Pokémon ever is Espeon. I love using Espeon’s high special attack and speed. This video was really entertaining.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Glad the video kept you entertained!

[@Shifty319]

RE: Legendary dogs "sometime in 2023". I'm calling it now, that video is gonna be either NYE or New Year's Day as a special treat

[@shimauta1941]

That optimized Umbreon run is really awesome.

[@kug0t]

It seems like Espeon should have just used curse, return and rest against red. It would be pretty tanky with curse and has attack equal to Umbreon and its special defense is pretty solid.

[@emilydonegan3208]

I wonder if I’ll catch up on video backlog before that legendary beast race! I like these two a lot; Espeon’s oddly sleek design , with the whiskers and jewel is very cool, and alien looking, while Umbreon’s is simple and classic, with its pitch black fur and red eyes! Also, Dawn and Dusk are also the names of some of my favorite Digimon games, which I’ve actually done challenges in!

[@resonae17]

I think Espeon will win this one, but I might have guessed Umbreon if this were any region other than Johto. Defenders just seem to perform worse than attackers in GSC if they're both equally good at what they do

[@mickgorro]

27:25-27:28: "Umbreon is about to take a massive lead", but... but.... but that's Espeon!

[@pyriel6870]

Dusk and Dawn, *insert vampire movie pun here* lmao. Personally I love all the eeveelutions both in design and usability. They're all so cute lol

[@shimauta1941]

An extra thank you comment for spoiling us with daily content. Thank you Scott.

[@Offbreed309]

Glad this one was next, I love them both! 💚

[@The-Yid-]

Without playing Pokémon Colosseum as a kid, there's a good chance I would never have used either Espeon or Umbreon ever in a play through. As a kid I always thought Umbreon was based on an Egyptian Jackal statue, and he's still my favourite Eeveloution and shiny variant to this day Happy how well he did in the end, I really feared for him as a gen 2 dark type

[@ruthlesace]

I've been watching these for too long, I figured out the improvements you would make during the first playthroughs

[@charlessegale6493]

*WOW!* This run was wild! I love Espeon more overall due to it's speed and typing, but I definitely believe Umbreon has the better design and utility. I'm really glad to see how close the final runs were and how well both of them performed. Great job once again, dude!

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Thanks!

[@MimeJrD]

38:53 Can only find this on bulbapedia, but apparently morning sun, synthesis, and moonlight can heal twice as much depending on the time of day in gen 2. Kind of self explanatory, but for morning sun it’s in the morning. Synthesis though is during the day

[@pokepha8379]

Hey Scott, remember what you said about Umbreon's gender in this video? Don't forget about it when you get a pure special attacker one day! Low attack IVs also help with confusion, but not much, because the missed turn stings much more than hitting yourself.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

That’s a good point for Pokémon that never need to use physical moves

[@giuseppe177]

Never clicked so fast on a video. Love the content, you're doing amazing!

[@TheLeviathan1293]

I'd say Espeon. For the sole reason that offensive pokemon tend to deal better with stuff. That said, Espeon might have trouble with dark types. Not worst case scenario since it has good special defense, but still. Hidden power fire for steel types I guess?

[@ryapowa]

Snorlax ended up being the most annoying Pokémon for it to deal with. But then again, many Pokémon struggle with it

[@Pyxis10]

I used Umbreon as a kid, mostly because I set the time to the opposite if what it was on purpose.

[@n64_kfp]

I actually like Espeon better, but in this video I was rooting for Umbreon. Put up a heck of a showing

[@braingaming8224]

When I was a kid playing these games umbreon was one of my favorite pokemom. When gen 3 came around and you couldn't get an umbreom I stopped playing pokemon for years. I didn't play a pokemon game until x and y

[@havyn88]

Can't wait for the Leafeon and Glaceon video

[@wakingup4206]

I feel like you could have made red more consistent and faster for Espeon by using the curse rest return leftovers combo and setting up on the Pikachu or red's Espeon. But great video as always!

[@kevinsips3658]

Great video Scott! Loved the huge improvement for ____eon in the 2nd playthrough!

[@jmobraz]

The psychic dog fox cat thing... LMAO! Hahahaha! What a video! ❤️

[@tjepic5256]

It was really cool when you fought the gym leaders you had your pokemon vs theirs on the screen hopping around

[@altitudemanagement]

Overlay thoughts- for your pokemon's stats, I read them top to bottom, then left to right. Soi it's HP, then Atk, Def, Spd, SpA, SpD. For your opponent's pokemon, since they are all stacked in a row, it would make sense to me to put them in the same order. You do put the first three int he same order, but then instead of the 4th stat being speed, you put SpA and SpD next and Speed last. I think it would be a lot easier to read if speed was 4th instead of last because it would match your own pokemon's order perfectly then. Alternatively, you could match the order left to right first, then top to bottom. In that case, it would be HP, Speed, Atk, SpA, Def, SpD. I don't know if you've ever thought about the two layouts in comparison to one another, but since you don't label them on your opponent's pokemon, I have to look back and for to know which color means what, which leads to that slight usabilty issue.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Speed is last to be visually easier to locate on the right hand side. Mid-list is too hard to parse quickly.

[@altitudemanagement]

@@ScottsThoughtsPokemon that's a fair point. Given that you'd always want speed to be on the end, what about changing your Pokémon's Stat display order? Assuming you'd want to keep the pairs the same, you could move HP and Speed to the bottom. Then the opponent's pokemon could match if they were in either order 1. Atk, SpA, Def, SpD, HP, Speed 2. Atk, Def, HP, SpA, SpD, Soeed

[@mikemckenzie3175]

This is why it’s good to raise an eevee into Espeon bite is huge it’s so fast so it makes a lot of Pokémon flinch and it’s effective vs psychic and ghost

[@DoubleDrastik]

Great runs never would of thought umbreon would get such a good time eventhough i voted for it to win i was really being optimistic

[@Skajaw]

The editing and the layouts are amazing, props to you man

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Thanks a ton!

[@shidoumezawa]

I always loved to use Umbreon over Espeon. I was cheering for him xD But im happy with the results, in the end it turned out to be what every person that used umbreon should know, he is a little slower, but way more consistent

[@reapercarl5047]

I rearly like these runs it helps with my own solo runs, i was playin silver the other day an i kept gettin lost havin your optimized path to learn gives me a great base line

[@PolsDGas]

Another Good content delivery by Scott, as always 👌

[@piratebear3126]

I love Umbreon, he was my favorite as a kid and still is pretty much tied with Espeon and Flareon for my favorite now. Espeon is winning this race. Even with Dark and Steel, Psychic is still powerful and defensive Pokemon are bad in game in general, even worse in solo runs. Both will do pretty good though.

[@FifthPromise]

I kind of always roots for the underdog, and even though Espeon is my favorite of the two, and my prediction was an Espeon win i was really hoping for an Umbreon win. Can't believe how close it ended up being and how much came down to luck, so much so that I actually feel that the consistency should be considered worth more than the 1:40 difference; otherwise the leaderboard will always only be about the 4x times and never about the flavor of the Pokémon. Great run as always. This december has been amazing!

[@legendarystormmartialartsg3573]

*Me just now watching this video* "Karen is going to be such a wall for Espeon. 😰"

[@Volti666]

Really enjoyed this one! Thank you Scott!

[@CapnWilly]

Yes. This is the VS video I've been waiting for.

[@MrT3L]

These are some of my favorite Pokémon! For Gen 2+ playthroughs, it would be cool if you could include the AI's PP for each move in addition to their stats and moveset.

[@mistermr2147]

I tried using Umbreon growing up, got super frustrated by it only really learning Bite and being very weak. Ended up using it to fight red because I didn't want Flash wasting a moveslot on anything else, and it walls Espeon incredibly well lol.

[@Alienldr]

Some pokemon are like that. They are hard to fight but also hard to use. I struggled using Umbreon as a kid but the hardest thing I thought to get passed in the elite for was Karen's umbreon

[@JDC2890]

Umberon is basically a tank, very tough defences, but poor attack power. Espeon would have serious trouble against it before generation 6.

[@tesladrew2608]

For the rocket executive with the 5 koffings you can use faint attack when your accuracy drops, it doesn't miss (in later gens at least)

[@brentrobinson3275]

It doesnt miss in gen 2 also

[@Bl3Moze]

After watching this video, it became clear to me which Pokémon is better. It was like Night and Day.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

I see what you did there

[@Bl3Moze]

@@ScottsThoughtsPokemon Ha! See! Cause it’s light out.

[@pommyadam]

I remember grinding an Eevee and waiting for 6pm to roll around so I could get an Umbreon I'd already beaten the game by that point, so was probably dex-filling, but remember pestering my parents about what time it was so I could boot up the gameboy and get it Rest, Curse and Leftovers on Umbreon is absurd - I'm pretty sure I'd just ragequit as an enemy trainer

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Imagine Karen with leftovers on her umbreon

[@dannyainsworth1421]

My fav pokemon umbreon! Feel bad for it being dark n also seeing all these psychic pokemon just running through the games with no issues.. getting boring to watch as you know they all just own it. Love the content been watching about a year now! Love the vs matches... just not when umbreon loses hahah!

[@huntersnider9621]

Cool run! Also, I legitimately refuse to believe that attract is only 50% success rate as it's listed. Across every personal run I do and every run I watch, it straight up seems like 70-80%. This is the one thing I'm a conspiracy theorist on lmao

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Yes. I buy into this conspiracy theory too.

[@natejeffcoat4403]

I love your content recently thank you Scott

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

You’re welcome! Glad you’re loving it.

[@dennisservin6540]

"Icludning Dennis of course, Hello Dennis I hope you're doing well." I was like: "Wha- wai- HUH?!" I was taken by suprise, cuz I wasn't looking at the screen when you suddenly said my name and asked if I was doing well-! XD Anyhow, cool video man!

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Haha

[@bortzanator3018]

7:21 She's in the corner because she's on the phone! (dont you stand in the corner when you are on the phone?) lol Your videos are incredible, I love how far you have come. I am anxious to see you do Gen4 stuff, but I know that's a ways off. So I might start doing it myself.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

I can’t wait to do gen4. But there are a lot of technical problems to overcome for that to become a reality.

[@keithemerson7662]

This has me thinking of Pokemon Colosseum, so I went and looked at the opening cutscene... Wes's (the player character in Colosseum) smile is a thing of nightmares.

[@friedrichritter1978]

Pursuit hits while Umbreon is infatuated Sounds legit

[@wideright7567]

I for one am proud of my tanky bulky lil fox fren umbreon. I figured karen would hold up espeon more, but red was where umbreon got to shine in true comparison. the routing you’ve been doing shines in these comparisons and makes them really hold up as quality.

[@LTDextel]

7:23 she's on the phone which is why she's in the corner to not bother people. But, it's funny because she's still on the path so people walking by are probably still bothered by her being there. Fits with the hgss dialog with her too. Dennis!

[@ThePKMNTrainerAndrew]

Thoughts at the start of the stream - I think Espeon is going to have a faster overall time. But may struggle a bit until Confusion. Umbreon might have an easier early game due to its bulk but won't have any way to KO things quickly. Will edit at the end of the video. Edit: Well, Umbreon performed much better than I thought. I was pleasantly surprised :D. Umbreon is my favorite Eevee'lution. Won't spoil exact endings, but that was fun to watch.

[@OrbitalDeathRay]

I find myself gravitating to more defensive Pokemon during playthroughs, and Umbreon is a no brainer. My favourite Dark type by far. What an absolute chad. 🖤

[@shimauta1941]

Obligatory Dennis comment.

[@seitanile]

“Lost the fight against the Koffing and Weezing group due to inaccuracies.” Has Faint Attack.

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Rip me

[@lukepittle8961]

Your channel really has grown on me. Keep up the great work

[@ScottsThoughtsPokemon]

Thanks!

[@lukepittle8961]

@@ScottsThoughtsPokemon love the depth you go into and also how you optimise your runs, it’s a breath of fresh air

[@ashclaw2306]

A staller vs a psychic cannon... This is going to be fun!

[@SilvarusLupus]

I remember whenever I played Pokemon Colosseum I would always keep Umbreon over Espeon just because of how tanky it is! It really helped when trying to catch shadow pokemon and you needed a stall mon. Edit: I'm also going to give the win to Umbreon just for consistency lol Espeon needs a lot of luck in that Red fight while Umbreon needs none.

[@TwizZter777]

I agree. Espeon was barely faster but Umbreon had a perfect run and a lower level. If anything I would say they are tied as far as the metrics go.

[@anlev11]

Putting Espeon in the S tier and Umbreon in the A tier seens a bit arbitrary. Umbreon is much closer to Espeon than to Girafarig, and Espeon is closer to Umbreon than to Lugia. I think tierlists are supposed to cluster togheter data points that have similar attributes. Setting thresholds manually without looking to the data can sometimes separate data points that are better conceived as being of the same cluster rather than different clusters, just like the Espeon and Umbreon case here (and also Mantine, that seens better suitable in the A tier). I think it would be better to redefine the thresholds at some point in the future. I know there are machine learning algorithms that can find the best thresholds in a given dataset for a given number of clusters, but i don't remember right now. If you search for Clustering Algorithms for Unidimensional Data you may find something. Edit.: Also, you can use clustering algorithms for multidimensional data. For exemple, you could plot a graph with the real time in the x axis and resets or game time in the y axis and create clusters, like a 2D tierlist.

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

Nob in Chuck's Gym is a reference to the translator of the Pokémon games, Nob Ogasawara. Seel is also one of my least favourite Pokémon, and l can prove it: In my latest attempt at the "Name every Gen 1 Pokémon" Quiz, Seel and Dewgong were one of only two evolution families l forgot, the other being Horsea and Seadra. I only forgot 10 Pokémon in total, and the other 6 were rarely seen Pokémon, anyway, so l must have something against those 4 in particular.

[@reedjohnson5916]

Thank you Scott, thank you editor Shawn

[@ADarkGamer]

*pushes up nerd glassess* Actually! Bug being super-effective against the Dakr type is largely thought to be a reference to the long running Tokusatsu series: Kamen Rider. Since Dark is the 'evil' type (at least in gen 2) and Kamen Rider is a (largely) bug-themed super hero the association makes sense.

[@shyguymd]

I may have been screaming for you to teach Shadow Ball to that Umbreon for the Jasmine + Radio Tower part.