Douglas Murray: I’m an uncomfortable agnostic who still values the church

[@joshuaWEC]

Douglas Murray hit the nail on the head. One of the greatest steps towards maturity for the church will be to unashamedly proclaim the true gospel message without fear of sounding foolish or being persecuted. The church is acting like parents who want so much to be liked by their child that they compromise their principles and don't rebuke or correct , only to have the child grow up to disrespect them for being so wishy-washy. We need to proclaim the truth which will set people free. We need to speak and act it out in love so we are not clashing symbols, but rather humble messengers of Good News.

[@colinmatts]

But the church can't prove the gospel message to be true no more than you can. So they would look foolish if they proclaimed such a thing

[@louiscyfer6944]

what is the true gospel message?

[@emmanuel8310]

@@colinmatts What do you mean by "prove" the gospel message. He said "proclaim" the gospel message, isn't it??

[@LA-kc7ev]

@@louiscyfer6944 That people no longer have any understanding of religion is not all the fault of the church.

[@louiscyfer6944]

@@LA-kc7ev what is religion, what is the true gospel and which church?

[@sisiphas]

I’m also an uncomfortable agnostic, who is very unimpressed by the ‘new atheistis’

[@RodMartinJr]

Love your "handle," sisiphas. And so very keeping with your state of "discomfort." Such a state of feeling can lead to powerful humility -- the kind of humility which led to the BIG breakthroughs in science from the early 1600s through the late 1700s. After that, scientists got cocky and lost their edge. That same humility can give you answers on just about any topic, including miracles.

[@TheEternalOuroboros]

The New Atheists managed to demystify and expose the worst of religious practices, and all power to them in that regard. But in terms of their philosophical rigour - a very poor job of that they did indeed.

[@zzzzzz69]

just wondering what's the line that divides the "new" and "old" atheists?

[@TheEternalOuroboros]

@@zzzzzz69 Old Atheists would be Russell and Hume, New would be as mentioned above. It's simply the time in which they emerged.

[@CSUnger]

@ ChrisW, it may not be the dividing line but some consideration must be given to the fact that the “old” atheists were operating within a dominant Christian paradigm and their arguments were more philosophical than merely raising objections as the “new “ atheists principally do. The new atheists operate today in a culture that welcomes them, not because they present a superior alternative hypotheses as the old atheists attempted to do ( we got the Enlightenment from them) which is much more intellectually honest and difficult, but because they are merely better polemicists to a society that simply lacks the vocabulary to voice the predispositions that they already hold and for which they attend these talkfests simply to have their prejudices confirmed. Listen to any of their talks or speeches and hear how many times they are cheered and applauded by their audience when they utter a particularly witty bon mot that has nothing to do with answering g any deeper philosophical questions but is merely an amusing way to make one’s opponent look silly.

[@EdVandenberg-j7n]

As a conservative Christian I wish that many of my fellow believers were as thoughtful as Douglas. I consistently find value in what he says and find him to be a very important voice at this time in history.

[@Apriluser]

Speaking the truth in love. Thank you, Douglas.

[@jonjonboi3701]

I consider myself a right wing libertarian agnostic with some atheistic views and I honestly value Christian values and tradition.

[@skylarhillman1455]

Same

[@vickyrussell268]

Come join the Christ followers... not CHRISTIANITY!

[@VinnyCarwash-js8op]

isn't that nice

[@dannina1280]

To many religious people, its not just spiritual, its a community, a culture, an identity, a comfortable escape and hope for something you have no control of. Sometimes for these reason, whether its the truth or not is no longer the most important.

[@radscorpion8]

How could it be a "comfortable escape and hope" if its not true?

[@zgobermn6895]

It's always a pleasure to listen to Douglas Murray, and I'm a theist!

[@RodMartinJr]

Yeah! He's genuinely and humbly struggling with it all. Such humility is refreshing. Everything we know is a relative Truth, for when we know the Absolute Truth of something, it ceases to persist in the time stream -- what Christ talked about setting us free. And this is exactly how.

[@iainrae6159]

@@RodMartinJr Douglas is not 'struggling' ,but like many folks cannot believe in supernatural claims made by priests, when evidence is lacking.

[@RodMartinJr]

@@iainrae6159 While Douglas is refreshing, you are facepalm groan-worthy. It's amazing the "faith" people have in their own, implied omniscience. Yours is laughable.

[@iainrae6159]

Seema a reasonable position Douglas is taking. As there is no evidence for intervening personal supernatural Gods, it is quite a leap to say you are a 'believer'.

[@RodMartinJr]

@@iainrae6159 LOL. You say there is "no evidence," so you are implying for yourself omniscience, since to qualify for "no" evidence, this universe would have to have borne all of its secrets to YOU. Good luck with that delusion.

[@Wombat-blue]

Douglas your books are excellent and very Cleary support your views and beliefs extremely well. Long may you write.

[@VinnyCarwash-js8op]

Julian Clary?

[@carlosreira413]

Prayers for all our fence sitting brothers and sisters. Come on over to the bright side of life. You won't regret it. Jesus has prepared a place for you and only you!

[@killingusslowly2090]

Only problem is, nobody can force themselves to believe in something. Even if they want to.

[@carlosreira413]

@@killingusslowly2090 Yes, I think that's true, so with God, the "want to" is good enough: "Lord I believe, help my unbelief!"

[@killingusslowly2090]

@@carlosreira413 But what makes you so sure your interpretation of god is the correct one? There was a time when Christianity was so subdivided that protestants thought Catholics were going to hell.

[@angelakatsapas7894]

@@killingusslowly2090 The truth of the matter is that there are true Christian in all the denominations, God knows those who belong to Him. However right doctrine give our lives clearer direction. One is saved by Grace through faith in Christ alone.

[@colinmatts]

Don't be fooled. Murray's an atheist and so is Jordan Peterson. They just don't want Dawkins hate mail

[@eatsomeseaweed9760]

I love Douglas.

[@uptoncriddington6939]

“Help Thou my unbelief” A great many struggle but as the late P.D. James stated in her autobiographical work (to paraphrase) It can be helpful to the uncertain, the wavering, the disappointed, to continue the practices of belief to regain and strengthen belief. In that regard, the aphorism “Acta non Verba” can also be helpful as the intellectual acceptance of Faith is only one aspect of what is central to a Christian’s life, but God’s Grace is to be found in living the Gospel even when we doubt. “Laborare est orare” is another way of putting this.

[@louiscyfer6944]

intellectual and faith don't go together. faith is irrational.

[@uptoncriddington6939]

@@louiscyfer6944 You mean intellect and faith, not intellectual. That’s merely an opinion you hold. A great many greater intellects than either of us have been and are people of faith. Reason is the basis on which many arrive at faith. Reason is the basis of rationality.

[@lilahlacataa2367]

I love Douglas Murray ❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@youngman44]

I listened to the entire discussion and Q&A on the podcast. Murray really has a lot of good things to say. Really like him. And he is correct, imo. I thought Wright’s letter was excellent. The issues of social justice cannot be stand alone for Christians. Otherwise they simply float along the cultural river and add little value. They must be framed within both the cause and humble, cruciform method of Christ if they are to be distinct and valuable. They cannot morph into power (as has happened time and again) but sacrifice. Justice matters - for Christians - only because of and within the frame of the good news of the death and resurrection of God incarnate and this mysterious and ironic defeat of evil and call to forgiveness and peace.

[@sugansugan56]

It not just about believing. There is an awakening that happens inside you when you come to faith. I fear most churches have fallen away from the truth and real faith of Jesus Christ. We need to at least have a strong messages so the truth is spoken and their is a better standard for human beings to live by.

[@rgvonsanktpauli6250]

Ironically enough, Murray's cogent observation about the modern Church's floundering is precisely what we would indeed be seeing happening if indeed Christianity were true. It all makes perfect sense, Douglas. Do come on home, good gent.

[@invisiblegorilla8631]

Ironically enough, Murray's cogent observation about the modern Church's floundering is precisely what we would indeed be seeing happening if indeed Christianity were false, and people were starting to realize it, too.

[@rgvonsanktpauli6250]

@@invisiblegorilla8631 Ironically enough, Murray's cogent observation about the modern Church's floundering is precisely what we would indeed be seeing happening if indeed Christianity were hastily dismissed by many as being false -- these emotional hand-wavers having been oblivious to, or reluctant to hear, the overwhelming philosophical, historical and scientific evidence for Christianity’s veracity - combined with the entirely predictable human negligence of many fallible human beings in the clergy, something quite expected if Christianity were indeed true.

[@RodMartinJr]

@@rgvonsanktpauli6250 I think part of the problem in the modern world involves the viewpoints or mindsets of individuals which color their understanding of scripture. Stephen Meyer made a powerful observation about the development and maturation of science from the Renaissance through the early Age of Enlightenment. He said that humility to God is what gave science a potent "leg up." That humble nature started to falter heavily in the mid-19th century. If only the same degree of humility had been used on spiritual topics. Instead, we got a corrupt rejection of a corruption of scripture. Clouded by certainty, Protestant church leaders missed a great deal that had been shrouded by the politicization of Christianity in the 4th century, under Constantine the Not-So-Great. With humility, we can find a timeline in the Bible which is compatible with those of science. With humility, we can find the formula for miracles and even creation itself in Genesis 1 and especially Genesis 2:2. And with humility, we can find the identity of the species targeted by Noah's Flood.

[@invisiblegorilla8631]

@@rgvonsanktpauli6250 Where is this overwhelming philosophical, historical, and scientific evidence for Christianity's veracity? I've yet to see it.

[@rgvonsanktpauli6250]

@@invisiblegorilla8631 Thanks for the message. For starters, maybe check out a couple of good, popular-level books that address things from a fairly macro level, if you haven’t already read them. I might start with “What’s So Great About Christianity” by Dinesh D’Souza, “Answering Atheism” by Trent Horn, and “Reasonable Faith” by William Lane Craig (or Craig’s “On Guard”). All easily available on Amazon or in book shops. After that, there are lots of excellent, popular-level books, as well as more academic ones, that go deeper into the various compelling philosophical, historical and scientific arguments for Christianity, once a solid basis for Christianity’s rationality has first been established. The full case for Christianity is indeed a cumulative one, and once all of the evidence is carefully and soberly weighed with an open mind, Christianity really is the best inference to an explanation going. It’s quite something how all of the various bits and pieces elegantly dovetail into a coherent, rational story of reality. Feel free to hit me up for more book recommendations on any more specific topic, if you’d like. Have fun.

[@luke31ish]

I think the new atheists are making a compelling case, but I also see what a lack of guard rails does to the human psyche. The woke are creating a new religion, where revealing your sexual fetishes to the public is a virtue.

[@mattr.1887]

Former Christian here, and woke can go to hell.

[@jhibbitt2896]

i'm not entirely sure i follow what it is he wants/believes, but i think that's probably because he's not sure either

[@iainrae6159]

Douglas does not believe in a personal supernatural God but admires aspects of Christianity.

[@richardmortimer8147]

Justin, can you get Douglas to speak with Stuart Olyott? He is still very lively and 80+ and has an incredible mind.

[@csmatthew]

my experience likewise. I sometimes imagine how marvellous it would be if the CofE were to embrace its status as a sort of 'English Shinto', but that would require it having a confident belief in being the repository and arbiter of national identity.

[@paularrowsmith9980]

A sub comment asks, "What is the true gospel message?" What a worthwhile question! To find the answer, we have to look beyond church denominations to the Bible, and to Jesus himself, who it identifies as "the author and finisher of our faith". The Gospel is stated in the first NT letter to the Church at Corinth as being "that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures, and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once". So the Gospel is the good news that the one spoken so much of in the Old Testament scriptures had come, died for our sins, returned physically to life again, and was repeatedly seen by many. The application of the Gospel is that although we are all guilty in our selfish and often proudful ways, God has made a way for us to be forgiven and united with him - through his crucified and risen Son, Jesus, who "gave his life a ransom for many". What is needed on our part is a humble heart which turns from what the Bible straightforwardly calls sin, putting our trust in Jesus alone for the gift of the forgiveness he offers. We are then a part of the "household of faith" comprising all others that God has brought to himself through his Son. So the invitation of Jesus to "come unto me" is one which any of us can respond to, if we will. It's a simple matter, but it puts us in both the way of God's blessing, and the place of hate from those who hate both Christ and the Gospel. So, be warned, receiving Jesus as Lord and Saviour is not for the double-minded.

[@michaeledwardhunter]

Aphorism: "There are a number of people nowadays who talk about religion as if it were the worst thing that had ever happened to the world. This is a huge subject of course that allows for many paths of investigation. However, there is one thing that strikes the imagination of at least some of us not so quick to condemn age-old practices. Mindful of what can never be dismissed as a possibility, namely, an apocalyptic event, we wonder how many of these scoffers, if they were to see the end coming not only for themselves but for their loved ones and all they hold dear, wouldn’t sink to their knees in a second and pray for some act of salvation well beyond reason or scientific explanation."

[@JustDave69]

Why have faith in something that enables apocalyptic events? If say, the god of the bible did exist, how would he be better than the real life dictators we already have?

[@michaeledwardhunter]

@@JustDave69 Aphorism: "It can always come about that some piece of stupidity upsets and even destroys the most complex, sophisticated, and powerful organizations. A sufficiently large rock hurtling through space and hitting this planet would be an example of such obtuseness, albeit at the cosmic level."

[@louiscyfer6944]

@@michaeledwardhunter would god be powerless against such a rock? wouldn't it have been god who sent it in the first place? in a case of an apocalyptic event, what god would I pray to for salvation? as far as the possibility of such thing, i am not sure that you can even demonstrate that it is possible.

[@Jonas-gl9ke]

What a revealing observation on the nature of faith if you can define an atheist clutching at straws in a state of fear to be a theist.

[@louiscyfer6944]

@@Jonas-gl9ke it appears you are spectacularly stupid.

[@Onotail]

Revelation gives us the letters to the Churches through the ages. Although it is argued much between Christians who love to argue, the Church of Laodicea is the last Church and it is the Lukewarm or Woke church that Jesus vomits out of his mouth. This last church should make the true body of Christ (us who remain true) sick to the guts. These are the End Times, Jesus told us that it would get bad in all ways, but we are not to fear. We stay true to the faith and we listen to God at all times. If we stray off the path he will bring us back because he is the good shepherd. The End is like being on the railway tracks watching the train hurtling towards us at great speed, our faith means we do not budge or close our eyes, we face it and just before it hits Jesus will snatch us away. I pray that Douglas reinstates his relationship with God because I am certain particularly recently that God is using him. If people do not understand that we have a spiritual adversary that God has planned to defeat they will never understand the times we are in. They will be lost in the evil that is coming hurtling towards us all.

[@julesjgreig]

Thank you

[@alwynpereira7363]

One of religions key goals is to unify followers on a common set of beliefs. Is there a way to not have to believe everything but still value the good, and stay unified and still be supportive of the church, its unified goal and its growth?

[@DanHowardMtl]

Why Ham Sarris won't have Douglas Murray on this topic.

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere - “Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,” as Herbert says, “fine nets and stratagems.” God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous.” CS Lewis

[@mr.c2485]

Back attcha believers!!…………Satan

[@patdainel9037]

Reading the bible is one of the things that made me leave Christianity

[@matthaschanged]

@@patdainel9037 why is that?

[@BrunoCardoso-dp3bd]

@@patdainel9037 how could you be a Christian without reading it? Lol

[@patdainel9037]

@@BrunoCardoso-dp3bd wow there is so many obvious answers to that question I don’t know where to start. Firstly a Christian is usually defined as someone who puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. Baptism is another symbol of being a Christian. The earliest christians didn’t read the bible…because there wasn’t one. Most christians throughout history both couldn’t read or afford a bible or it wasn’t available to them in their native language. So, it is very easy to be a Christian without reading the bible. You could also just choose to go to church, love Jesus and not read it (I suspect millions of christians do this) or only read the parts you like. If you do take the time to really read it and study it properly and critically, it becomes obvious that it was written by ignorant and superstitious people, that it is riddled with contradictions, is barbaric in its morality and in many areas (yes, I’m talking about you Deuteronomy) is just incredibly boring.

[@isabellacullin4884]

Maybe Douglas has seen to much sorrow in the world and it becomes even harder to believe . Dear lord i pray you give him the answers . glory be to god. ❤

[@alandinsmore1186]

Read "Christianity and Liberalism" by J Gesham Machen

[@marksandsmith6778]

Why. Any murders or jokes?

[@SupermanCrypto1]

What is the point of being an agnostic when faced with the resurrection of Jesus and the incredible evidence of this testable historical event.

[@mattr.1887]

I was a diehard, deeply committed Jesus freak for several years as a young man. Was involved in the ministry on multiple continents & led several people to the Lord. While all this was going on, I was crippled with guilt, confusion, depression, and anxiety. I gradually started having doubts about multiple doctrinal issues. The more I pushed into my faith & my relationship with God, the WORSE all of these issues got. I eventually deconstructed and went through an angry and bitter phase. Explored multiple religions and worldviews for several years. Gradually got to a point where I find divinity in nature. I don't get much more specific than that, because there are some things we just can't confirm scientifically, and that's okay. But I remain right-leaning socially and culturally, and I honestly admire what the church does for people. I just don't believe in the supernatural claims.

[@gusjeazer]

The hardest part for me, a Christian, was accepting that God forgave my sins and accepted and loved me. I knew this intellectually, but it took some time actually 'feel' it more and more. To accept the sacrifice Jesus made, not just believe in it. To feel accepted, being inacceptable. I have long periods of time when the holy spirit is truly in me, when I am trusting God with everything, when I am fearless and filled with love and peace. Sometimes, I fall away for periods. Not in my beliefs, not in my theology, not in the way I treat others, but inwardly I feel blocked from connecting. I have had a long journey to a more or less standard moderate Protestant leaning theology, with a few twists. I started with Zen Buddhism and Taoism. I looked into Hinduism, philosophy, weird ideas about how God worked. During all that time, I had read the gospels and I did immediately set Jesus as sort of my standard, I only really understood it on a superficial level, didn't understand half of the parables. Yet, I felt immediately drawn to it on a very deep level. So during my search for God, I went on a huge detour first, only to find myself back where I had started, after I had questioned almost everything I knew and read about the Bible and its history. I personally don't see nature as a good representation of what God is, since nature is brutal in essence. It is, in my opinion, a fallen world that is far from the loving, honest, caring, courageous, gentle, humble, powerful and perfect God I believe in. We all believe in something, wether we want to or not. I cannot believe in anything that is not like my God, who was personified in Yeshua Hamashiach, Jesus Christ. Jacob was called Israel, he who struggles/wrestles with God. Btw, the only religion I looked into that didn't hold any truth, that was just confusing, no point, no theology or spirituality worth mentioning, was Islam. I was intrigued after hearing a lot of Islamic conspiracy theories about how the Bible was changed, how Jesus was just a prophet and so on. Ever since I read the Quran, I started looking into Islam more and more, but not because I liked what I saw. It is based on a clearly wrong book, historical evidence is against it, scripture disproves it, their prophets conduct and commands are horrendous, he lived and died as a false prophet would. It is really scary to know that this is one of the world's largest religions. Anyway, I wish you all the best.

[@Onotail]

I think your experience is normal for people in these end times, it becomes harder to connect to God because we are falling away. Adam and Eve were not originally designed by God to die, they are his children. We are their children who must reproduce to avoid our species dying out altogether. But as we fall and our DNA is copied billions of times into our offspring our DNA becomes weaker, our connection to God more difficult. That is why he gave us the Bible and all the clues and codes inside it and teaches us to be faithful. That is what faith is believing when everything around us is wrong. I don't fit in to Christianity very well at all because I have seen and heard spirit all my life, I am well aware of the supernatural. I fit better into the Woo community up until I speak of my faith of course and then they get very tetchy too. But I learn a lot from the dark side that makes me understand the Bible in a much deeper way and I particularly love the study of prophecy. We are coming in to the Age of Aquarius this is the sign of the Antichrist. The number of man is 6 and Revelation tells us to be wise and calculate the number of man three times because it gives us 666. This calculation is 6x6x6 = 216 which is a derivative of 2,160 years. That is the exact number of years of a celestial age. Jesus was born at the dawn of the Age of Pisces, two fish one descends to hell the other ascends to heaven, it is the sign of Jesus and he was known by the fish. 2,160 years later he will return, he said he would return at the end of the age. The new age is Aquarius. The Air sign. Who is Prince of the Air? Aquarius is the man who carries Satan and he is coming soon. We are in the times that set the world up for his one world rule. @@gusjeazer

[@samdg1234]

I wish I could question Douglas as to whether he is an atheist or an agnostic. In this he claims to be agnostic at 23 seconds, but in the video titled, "Why Encourage Atheists To Go To Church? Matt Dillahunty vs Douglas Murray" at 3;21 he claims to be an atheist.

[@Onotail]

I think he struggles with this woke Church of Laodicea, but I believe the reason Jesus said he would vomit this church out of his mouth is because he was telling us that it should make us sick, we are his body. He is actually more a true Christian than those who claim to be Christian but are too weak to challenge the behaviour and modern ideas that are destroying us. Like you I would really like to hear Douglas talk more about his beliefs, particularly after the horrors he has witnessed. Have they made him turn more to God or more away.

[@samdg1234]

@@Onotail *"He is actually more a true Christian than those ..."* That reminded me of something C.S. Lewis said in the preface to "Mere Christianity". Are you aware of it? "Far deeper objections may be felt - and have been expressed - against my use of the word Christian to mean one who accepts the common doctrines of Christianity. People ask: "Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?" or "May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?" Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every amiable quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word."

[@Onotail]

Yes I agree with you. I believe in these times the true Christian often stands out. I had not ever read the quote so thank you for passing it on. Certainly the gospel is a tool for these end times and in some places written only for these times. You have to remember to think as an Iron-age person trying to describe an aircraft. A Christian I watch often quotes C.S Lewis too. He is Timothy Alberino and has an interesting YT channel.@@samdg1234

[@pwoods100]

Has this guy even thought for a minute that the church isn't the problem? The main problem is the bible, and the horrid doctrines that lie within it's pages. I don't get these people like Jordan Peterson, who remain secular but have an on-the-threshold approach to religion - like they are just so close to being Christian, but they are deeply saddened that they can't totally get on board. To me, it's nothing but pointless and pretentious pandering.

[@meganturner1456]

Listen to Bishop Robert Barron

[@ShimonBenTzionbtz]

Shimon BenTzion ❤Identity is exactly the question?? how do we recognize death while being in death and destruction, how can we die when we are already dead and have no concept of Life or being alive?? Religion is dead and will forever remain dead, as is written, on the day you eat of it you will surely die!

[@Onotail]

The resurrection is about the promise of eternal life. When humanity fell it inherited death because we no longer had access to the tree of life. We were broken away from God. God created Adam and Eve as immortal beings. The fall resulted in flesh and spirit being separated, flesh separated from spirit decays and dies. The resurrection of Jesus who was half man and half God, gave us who follow him access back to God the Father, Jesus went first and set the path. Before we are snatched away our bodies dead or alive will be resurrected and restored to the original immortal beings originally designed by God. This new born again body will be flesh and spirit reunited. It will never die. That is the good news, no more death or separation.

[@LA-kc7ev]

If people had a solid grounding in metaphysics, none of what is happening today would be.

[@konyvnyelv.]

Well it depends on metaphysics. Massachusetts Puritans had strong metaphysics and see what happened

[@ashley-fk6dp]

i reckon your right .do you know why ?i dont even know what metaphysics is.

[@vg1024]

metaphysics is subjective and can be interpreted as amoral

[@SuperChrisDub]

I am an agnostic by trying to be intellectually honest with myself. I never actively rejected faith. I just never believed. I tried but it was not real to me. You cannot force belief but I do value many Christian tenets. The values of the Enlightenment are deeply rooted in Christian beliefs. It was a reaction to the excesses of an unaccountable, powerful church. However, you don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Without Christianity, there would not have been an enlightenment or, at least, it would have been very different. I remember my dad explaining to me why he thought modern Islam behaves the way it does. This was in the 80s at the time of the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie. He said I needed to take 2 things into account. Firstly, that Islam is 400 years younger than Christianity and look how the church behaved 400 years ago. Secondly, Islam has not had a reformation or period of self-criticism in the same way. Although he found the fatwa reprehensible, it was not a surprise to him. It did not come out of a vacuum in his eyes. I think there is truth in what he said. He was not excusing the bad behaviour but trying to understand it in order to argue against it.

[@joshuamartinpryce8424]

Sounds admirable, its good that he hasnt fully left the church, but he has his doubts, we have all been there, he needs to start getting fiery hot before the steam starts to put out his fire. Its important to note that only The Holy Spirit can do all of this.

[@willire8811]

Life is a gift of God, the basic blessing of the breath in our lungs is in fact a blessing. If you are a Christian because you want good things in life this is prosperity gain… true faith is marked by a deep understanding of our depravity against a holy God. It is marked by sorrow for sin and asking God to clothe you in HIS righteousness. We cannot even look at the bloody sun without our retinas being damaged, why do we think we could ever stand before a holy God without a shield. Guys our shield is Jesus, it is his righteousness we wear before a Holy God and we can be confident in this. Once we accept this we are granted repentance of sin, we are justified and then we grow in sanctification until God calls us home. As a Christian we suffer we are not promised happiness, we suffer social exclusion , earthly sorrows, everything that unbelievers endure, the marked difference is the hope in salvation, and we know that our saviour Jesus suffered as we do! But he conquered death, and so we also can be assured of conquering death. This we pick up our cross and follow Jesus. Douglas I will be praying that God might humble your uncertainties so that you might soften to the gospel and know the love of Christ that surpasses understanding. God bless you, and any unbeliever who needs and desires the love of Christ.

[@marielleladt3830]

I do share Douglas Murray malaise about his faith. In such a confusing time we can only feel pulled in different directions. Religion has not kept her duties which to debate on deep beliefs on the equality but where to stop talking about social issues without being politically an activist with an agenda? Relions has always been political . Now all faiths try to be cautious in order not to offend the absurd ideology of the minorités. This is a big problem.

[@vg1024]

Last I checked white women combined with minorities make up a majority.

[@teachpeace3750]

I’m a happy Humanist who still appreciates the beauty of my former Christian faith, while also realizing there isn’t much evidence for its supernatural teachings’ validity.

[@teachpeace3750]

@davy boy thanks for asking. That’s not what I would consider the beautiful aspect of my former faith. I would consider the community beautiful, the dinners our church served to folks on the street, the times my church showed up to pride events handing out bottled water and rainbow bracelets, et al. Of course, I realize none of this needs religion to take place, but for me, all of these things happened in the context of people who were inspired by the self-sacrificial life of Jesus to serve underprivileged people. Hope that helps :)

[@MrShnazer]

I’m an uncomfortable Christian not understanding why people are running from the gospel of Christ.

[@Ididntaskforahandleyoutube]

It's entirely possible that they aren't "running from the gospel" but simply don't believe the claims. Cheers.

[@colinmatts]

I always suspected that Murray was a bit of a fence sitter. Why is he talking about faith? A bit like Jordan Peterson, he wants to have his cake and eat it.

[@nathandurant2825]

Exactly. I want others to do something which I am not doing myself but am also called to do

[@somethingtothinkabout167]

And yet he may be doing more for the church as he is.

[@richardmortimer8147]

I am a believer who is deeply disappointed with the behaviour of the Church (I mean real Christians, and not the apostate church).

[@robinchun1]

to me being an agnostic is like sitting on the fence..its either true or not true!

[@frankrandall8875]

A person is either convinced or they are not. I'm not. That has no bearing on the actual truth of the matter though.

[@robinchun1]

@@frankrandall8875 would you want it to be true?

[@frankrandall8875]

@@robinchun1 Hell no! At least not the God of the bible. My parents are no longer believers, so there is no way I would hope for a scenario where they would suffer for eternity.

[@carolmaney2653]

Agnostic Not Knowing to Gnostic The Knowing of the Ancient Perenial Philosophy that the Divine Spark of the Spiritual Jesus lies at the heart of each of us, Connecting us All. Try the "Gnostic Gospel" of Thomas, God is Love , The Laughing Jesus His Son Bless You Douglas

[@mypublicchannel3884]

Your struggle is defining your struggle but if you could define your struugle it would no longer exist. What you are really attempting to do is to locate some viable gray matter but you can't, which is uncovering a void which you interpret as a struggle. I could set you both straight and free within three minutes but the catch 22 is that you haven't the intellect to understand and accept what I would say and hence, it wouldn't produce change, much less growth. The dirty fact about evolution is that we all have to come up through the ranks very deliberately. We don't evolve in spurts nor do we leapfrog ahead. Growth and change need the context and the connection of what comes just before it to make the growth and change make sense. I could just dump on you from my level of consciousness but it would smother you, not help you. I am among the most evolved souls on this planet. I am a seventh level old soul making my final foray through this material dimension. This is my graduation incarnation, as it were. There is plenty I can tell you and share with you like the quantum mechanics of consciousness, which is really all anyone could need or want to know and understand - but it would fly right over your head. Instead I'll leave you with one man and his quote. My best advice is to spend the rest of your lifetime trying to understand this quote. "The word god, for me, is nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness." - Albert Einstein. Now, if you think you already understand this quote then you are many times more lost than you think you are. My final advice is to stay completely away from religion and stop thinking about and using the term god. It's for morons.

[@vendeevieverite]

Hello Douglas I have watched many of your interviews in which you speak with clarity. With this one it is different perhaps because I you are not listening to the right person or looking in the right direction. God has spoken in these last days ...read Hebrews 1. His Son is the One to look to and not anyone or anything else...not even the Church! Read John 5v24 where the Lord Jesus speaks of hearing and believing. Much in our lives can block the hearing with the obvious result. In fact faith comes by hearing read Romans 10. I have listened to you many times please listen, not to me but to Him who offers a free gift, eternal life.

[@michaelsorensen8670]

Interesting discussion. Douglas Murray reminds a little bit of Jordan Peterson a few years ago who was searching for God. Now it looks like Jordan is converting to Christianity. Let us pray for Douglas that he comes to believe in Jesus. God bless all here.

[@denissutherland3653]

Proverbs 9 : 13 - 18 “The woman Folly is loud ; she is UNDISCIPLINED and without knowledge. She sits at the door of her house, on a seat at the highest point of the city, calling out to those who pass by, who go straight on their way. “Let all who are simple come in here!” she says to those who lack judgment. Stolen water is sweet ; food eaten in secret is delicious!” But little do they know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of the grave.” The Church since the 3ird century when orderly worship ceased has been and is the domain of satan as in his second being the harlot. Jesus said I will speak to them im parables and they will see and hear but not see and hear. In order to understand Jesus's bible you need to be enabled to preceive what the words represent THINKLING wise. woman = the Churchm folly = lunacy of satab, loud means dogma, undisciplined means denominations, without knowledge is the inability to think spiritually and the reality jezebels set the agenda. Jezebels can be eithe male or female. ............. guests are in the depths of the grave menas those sitting in the pews paying to her total garbage are spiritually dead and headed fpor the lake of fire.

[@iainrae6159]

New athiests are simply athiests who are no longer burned at the stake as decreed by religious priests. Progress of sorts, as Christopher Hitchens would put it.

[@roddycavin4600]

Strange that atheism was allowed to flourish in the Judeo- Christian West. Remember how many Christians the League of Militant Godless murdered in the years 1937/8. Killing for a belief is not the unique prerogative of the theist.

[@antaibhshaglas3737]

I dont think it's necessary to believe to value the church.Its part of our heritage and culture,part of our identity

[@konyvnyelv.]

The problem is that we don't have any thing to substitute it. So even if it's not inspired by God it's still practically useful

[@peterharrison7190]

Does it take more faith to be an Aetheist?

[@TimothyFish]

What do you mean by faith?

[@Lepocoloco]

No, a higher IQ to be an Atheist is needed.

[@joehouston2833]

@@Lepocoloco 🤣🤣🤣

[@pwoods100]

No. Because it takes no faith for religious people to reject other religions and other gods.

[@joehouston2833]

@davy boy 🤦‍♂️

[@julieherz8909]

Take up Orhtodox Christianity if you are put off by the church "giving up its jewels" or "becoming like everything else"

[@TheHerrUlf]

Believe in what? Why?

[@trevorbates9017]

When we realise that the entire universe rests upon the shoulders of Almighty God and His Son Jesus Christ we will understand why the entire angelic host worship them both with a passion. The sacrifices Jesus made on Earth are a replication of the sacrifices God made in Heaven which can be summed up by this little phrase...That the Kingdom of God can be likened to a man, who, upon finding gold in a field, sold all that he had and so purchased that field. In Almighty God's case we can substitute...'gold' with, God's Living Waters, as made known to us through...The Science of Righteousness...as taught exclusively by the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ.

[@louiscyfer6944]

what sacrifices did jesus make? righteousness is not a science, and how would we know what jesus taught?

[@trevorbates9017]

@@louiscyfer6944 To enable us to see the absolute power of the righteous science that can save us he went head to head with those who try to oppress us and he met the worst fate they could inflict and thereby showing us how to be saved from such outrageous behaviour via an indestructible energy that we too can harness...via a science called righteousness which is still too advanced for us to understand without faith...but works anyway.

[@louiscyfer6944]

@@trevorbates9017 you don't answer questions, you just repeat your word salad. righteousness is not science. keeping to repeat your nonsense is not useful. how would we know what jesus taught? save us from what?

[@trevorbates9017]

@@louiscyfer6944 Here is an answer to a question...eternal life needs an eternal material to afix itself to. God's LIving Waters is such a material. It is highlighted as being fully at the disposal of Almighty God. It explains atoms, and galaxies and all life and it is formulated by the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ. All those adhering to the special righteous laws of God will automatically embrace that righteous science which simply won't work for those who ignore it but who will need it most.

[@jonathanperry7530]

What does he say? I'm a disappointed...

[@didinx8417]

"I'm a disappointed nonadherent."

[@jonathanperry7530]

@@didinx8417 thanks

[@bh613]

Douglas, men mess it up but Christ will assist you. He isn’t trying to help you and will help you. Have that discussion with Jesus.

[@Talktime.9ja]

Jordan peterson is making Douglas to believe in something

[@borderlands6606]

Secular atheism offers a safe space for gay people. However, and despite protests to the contrary, embracing atheism means replacing ontology and philosophy with something robust. That thing shows no sign of appearing, and in the meantime insults and pejoratives defer the inevitable absence.

[@zoranbeader6441]

Secular atheism offers a safe space for ALL people! Despite Christians whinning about how opressed they are, no one is burning them alive, no one is waging holly wars against them, no one is slaughtering them in the name of atheism. Secular atheism has been FAR safer for Christians than those good old pious days they pine over. Atheists treat Christians better than Christians used to treat other Christians. (And lets not even get started on how they treated non-Christians!)

[@borderlands6606]

@@zoranbeader6441 How is it safe?

[@zoranbeader6441]

@@borderlands6606 We don't allow religious people to behave the way they behaved before the rise of secularism. That's how it's safe. Secular atheism put religions on a leash and took away their power to attack infidels, heretics, shizmatics, pagans... it's a really loooong list.

[@zoranbeader6441]

@@borderlands6606 Have you noticed that the only countries where attrocities are still done in the name of God aren't secular atheist countries?

[@borderlands6606]

@@zoranbeader6441 One of the least safe places to be is the womb. Over 10 million UK children have lost their lives since the abortion act. You don't need God to commit atrocities.

[@michaelwhite8031]

You can't have a foot in both camps. Maybe he is working out his belief just like Jordan Peterson.

[@CS_Lewis]

i thought Jordan Peterson dont believe in Christ but believe the existence of God

[@michaelwhite8031]

@@CS_Lewis watch some of his latest conversations and you will see he is starting to come around to the idea

[@k-3402]

The only bible I'm somewhat familiar with is the King James version, and IMHO it fails to impress as a moral compass. In fact, much of its content is horrifying

[@CSUnger]

K-3, I’m not trying to be a wise guy but the Bible isn’t actually written for the non-believer. If you can’t see God in the eggshell, the spider’s web, the butterfly or the hummingbird, you’ll never see Him in the Bible.

[@konyvnyelv.]

All Bibles are horrifying. It's a book of war and genocides

[@CSUnger]

Robert, how an you chronicle the world honestly if you don’t list its sins? Anything less would be fiction.

[@carlosdavidnavarrete3317]

Uncomfortable agnostic. Wish I could be a believer.

[@iainrae6159]

Be brave and face the world without demanding supernatural Gods and babbling priests who have no more clue about the hereafter than my cleaning Lady.

[@konyvnyelv.]

@Jonathan Thomas but if God decides when he will call us to faith, then sending people to hell for not believing is absurd

[@charlesmadison1384]

Carlos, not to worry. Everyone considering the supernatural, which includes many, many gods, is in the same epistemological position you are. Agnostic simply means you don't know. Your wish to be a believer could become a reality if you simply believed in 'believing', i.e., if you accepted that believing in something without a shred of evidence (blind faith) was somehow worthwhile.

[@marksandsmith6778]

Doogie. if the church isn't good enough for you Y is it good enough for your mates?

[@beluga2841]

So there's also a postion, beyond "theist" and "atheist" which people don't know of. "Non-Theist". A non theist holds that the objective existence or non existence of a god entity doesent matter. It's a stupid question to ask "does God exist" in the first place. A non theist acknowledges the consequences of relegion, it's contributions, it's symbolism and beauty and also the tyrannical elements.

[@pwoods100]

That's what an atheist is. A non-theist. The prefix A - meaning "without" and of course theism means belief in god. So if you combine a with theist - you get "without belief in god" Which means it doesn't matter to me one way or the other whether god exists or not. I simply do not believe in one.

[@igotstoknow2]

Lifetime is a very short subset of eternity. Why ensure a trashed eternity with anti-God beliefs?

[@benstillman5080]

There is just as much chance a god exists that rewards those who believe it does exist as there is one who rewards those that believe it does not.

[@tales-from-this-crypt]

you can pass an age in a passage grave as an encrypted personage since eternity equates to no time at all :)

[@ELee-zv5ud]

Only if you believe there is an eternity. You have to believe in a god of some sort to believe in eternity. I don't so that doesn't work on me.

[@tinytrouble9385]

That's why I worship Baal, don't want to end up on his bad side for all eternity.

[@davidpackett8638]

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[@rajeevgangal542]

Funny thing about most commenters would be that their forefathers would've been likely forcibly converted to Christianity. Much like other 2 monotheistic religions, it wasn't a European religion. Atheists aee remarkable not because they reject God or revelation but the courage it takes to do so when there are nagging doubts about life beyond death and consciousness. They would be the first to accept god if incontrovertible evidence is given unlike religious zealots who wouldn't even if the opposite were proven. Religious texts should be taken as guides not gospel and should also be purged of wrongful direction. Like him I am an agnostic. Uncomfortable one who does not yet dare to be an atheist.

[@everythingisupsidedown9593]

You cannot forcibly convert someone to Christianity. God choses you, there is no other way to be a Christian. You have to be born again that cannot be forced. Nice try though with your twisting - you remind me of the serpent in Genesis. I wish you well but you should know God has already won.

[@iseriver3982]

Guides to what? There's plenty of story books with better morals than the bible, most are aimed at children, so Christians wouldn't have a hard time reading them.

[@mr.c2485]

@@everythingisupsidedown9593 Your Calvinistic skirt is showing. If a god chooses you, has he/she not forced you? And, if it doesn’t choose you, has it not forced your destruction? Sounds like…”do as I say, not as I do”.

[@mr.c2485]

@@elizabethkraszewski6603 It’s called coercion, and yes, you are correct. Example: North Korea

[@kimberiedema6951]

@@mr.c2485 no, what it means is that when your heart is good and your heart is open to God then you will come to know God. I hope I explained it a bit.

[@MarySamwael]

Douglas lovely boyfriend 💕 want our relationship and love to become more serious 💕 Douglas I want to marry you 💕 will take me to be Mrs Murray! Can't wait anymore. My passion for you is killing me 💕 we are both crazy in love with each other why not get married. Why we let our heart been burned and tortured💕 what stop us from getting married💕 Douglas I want my freedom from bad marriage so we can't get married 💕 crying now because I full of desire to hold you and I can't. Lovely sweetest greatest boyfriend 💕 oh Douglas every thing about you I in love with ❤

[@everythingisupsidedown9593]

Is Dougie wearing make up again? Has he had Botox or is it plastic surgery?

[@didinx8417]

protein and hydrolysed collagen...you should try it mate.....excellent for skin.

[@vvatherton]

Douglas it seems is heading toward the same realisation as Milo Yiannopoulos. Hope so.

[@glinleyt]

All this talk about "Christian values and tradition". No religion owns good values and morality. This is a known fallacy in wide circles. it's utterly ridiculous.

[@warrenbond32]

Douglas Murray is a nice dude one of the only tories on Earth I respect 🙏 shame He's right wing

[@jjviolator]

Oh he's very nice........especially to other men! He may claim to value the church but the church will never ever value him and deep down he knows it.

[@JD-ro7xe]

I'm afraid Jesus was an utter failure. Look at the world. What a mess! Even after Jesus' mission, so many gods are worshipped, still there is confusion who the real God is with different religions claiming theirs is the true path. Even the church stands divided, with so much corruption even among the clergy. This is what the son of God accomplished? What a tragedy!

[@AhngieCho]

Jesus didn't come to change the world. If you read the Bible you will see that he always said to look to God not to the world for our happiness and our purpose. Men sinned, rejected God, continue rejecting him to this day but they still expect him to come and solve all their problems.

[@JD-ro7xe]

@@AhngieCho Well, if Jesus didn't come to change the world, he could have stayed put in heaven. He came to show mankind the right path. If some students fail , maybe we can say it's their fault. But if almost all students fail, then maybe we should blame the teacher.

[@itiswritten9423]

​@@JD-ro7xe Don't be mistaken. Jesus is building his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. These are his exact words. Matt 16:18 - “... I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Hear his words again in Rev 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

[@JD-ro7xe]

''Jesus is building his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. ... the lake that burns with fire and brimstone''. Very impressive. If you look up Quran, there also you can find similar or even more hideous verses. Like Cosmic Skeptic who said ' God loves you so much that He has created a hell, just in case you don't love him back'. Nice. Can't you see the silliness of it all? If you have a teacher who keeps reminding you of the terrible things he would do to you if you do not do whatever he tells you, would you love such a teacher? Now, even if people follow Jesus after hearing such bone-chilling descriptions, do you think they follow him out of love or fear?

[@itiswritten9423]

​@@JD-ro7xe The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom. The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life that delivers you from death. Who are you to decide what is sinfulness? Who are you to decide for God what is right or wrong? Who made you a judge over morality? Jesus is a just judge. He will punish every sin because he is Holy. At the same time, he is full of mercy. That is why he provided a way of escape for man by taking the punishment for our sins (death) so that anyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. Don't be mistaken, those who reject this free gift of salvation will be condemned. This is Justice

[@iseriver3982]

Don't worry Murray, as a gay your types have always been valued by the church...

[@MarkJohnson-dr4ws]

Nasty ignorant facile rant. Feel better?

[@greggoodrich5189]

Unbelievable is showing the current state of agnosticism and atheism. Great amount of focus on the practice of fideists who claim Christianity, with no rational examination of the cognitive claims themselves.

[@Lepocoloco]

STFU already. Your long words are so.... cringe.

[@kimberiedema6951]

@@Lepocoloco why so much anger?

[@Lepocoloco]

@@kimberiedema6951 I guess Jesus made me that way.

[@kimberiedema6951]

@@Lepocoloco really seriously have you expierenced something very awfull with believers?

[@AhngieCho]

@@Lepocoloco Actually, no. Your sinful nature and sinful tendencies have made you this way. God simply gave you free will to express those if you so choose.

[@theaccentedguy1505]

Ha ha. Like this is prove that god exists. 🤦🏽‍♂️

[@Lepocoloco]

This channels proves that morons exist and are doing well.