When Positive Dog Training Doesn't Work

[@LaurenMillerZoePhee]

Great video, Kris! You're very right about the "instant society". I also think that client's need to examine their goals and have a reality check. Sometimes their goals are not attainable for the dog that is in front of them, regardless of the type of training they go for. We have had several clients with super aggressive dogs and their goals are for their dogs to go to the dog park and make new friends. LOL! Nope.

[@derakino999]

i think the one who needs a reality check is you what is it you do then? rehabilitating dogs to a degree or with limits in the case you mention really sounds like you are mediocre at your job people should not settle for trainers like you the only limits should be that dogs are not perfect, but outright calling impossible a rehabilitation of an aggressive dog, specially when there have been cases like the ones you mention who have been rehabilitated...sheesh

[@derakino999]

i'm really sorry for the way i expressed myself, since it seems you work with dogs and have a lot of good intention but i can't really take back any of what i said since i think losing hope on an aggressive dog so easily is much more less respectful to them than i was to you

[@fae3561]

@@derakino999 They didn't mention losing hope for an aggressive dog, they mentioned unrealistic goals for an aggressive dog. Dogs that have extreme behavioral problems can recover, but there's just things that they won't be able to do sometimes. If a dog is hyper aggressive towards other dogs, it probably is scared of them/doesn't enjoy their presence, so its likely going to be an unrealistic standard to have them go to a dog park which isn't a good place for a dog that is terrified for other dogs to be, and may only ever be a place that a dog tolerates being around but probably won't enjoy entering.

[@1337flite]

@@fae3561 So if you have a dog that is scared of iother dogs, (or other things e.g. certain people,all people,cars, cats whatever) you can't train them to not be fearfuly gradually showing them that they have or no longer have nothing to feat? Surely that is what a dog trainer is supposed to do - change a dogs behaviours and responses to certain stimuli?

[@Szwestaify]

Very nice video Kris, thanks for that ! I am also working as a dog trainer and I allways tell my clients that they need to stick to their goal and be pacient. Whenever they have more questions for some sudden situation I allways answear their quesitions and guide them what to do next. Process of teaching the dog especially new behaviour with stresfull situation might be struggle for clients as well, so I think they really need to be aware that the're doing right thing, but that require well educcated trainer as you said in your video. Greetings from Berlin ;)

[@PawsuasiveDogTeaching]

Great video. When i first got my Ruby from the rescue she was so wild and crazy that they had a warning on her paperwork to have 2 people handle her. I am a balanced dog teacher that mostly uses positive dog teaching methods. I believe your dog should know the word NO though. How ever you should never use any devices that cause pain. Now my Ruby the star of my KZbin and she knows over 40 tricks.

[@marianach8312]

100% agree with you, spot on!!!

[@georgemontgomery8847]

yep there is only one reason and that is the impatient human whether its the owner or trainer. people need to realize every day with your dog needs to be a training day even if its 5 minutes getting a great sit and release or a game of tug. I find a game of tug is great for me never-mind the dog, as its the dogs positive energy it projects to me that makes me feel great and the look on her face and in her eyes when i let go and she gets the tug toy. love your channel!

[@kirstymacfarlane1620]

Yes! Someone with exactly the same training principles as myself. I have very protective gsd and I use a muzzle when I have to. My husband can take the little minx into his work and she won't say boo to a goose! However she does like to show off the tricks I've taught her, so it's really nice when my husband tells people that those tricks are because of the hours I've put in training her. I have a spinal condition and reckon that's partly why she can be reactive with certain people and some neighbours and kids did torment her when she was at the adolescent I'm going to bark at everything stage which really didn't help! I'm so glad to see someone else emphasise on how important that one to one time is!!

[@koralee8135]

When people are trying for years on a particular issue like reactivity for example and getting no where, it's disgusting to complain about impatience.

[@quecuentas3]

Just feels like "positive" and "balanced" trainers agree on more than they thi k they do.

[@Sunnygurule16]

AWESOME

[@Aceofwolves]

Balance training uses positive aspects but also correction....purely positive training doesn't correct bad behavior. And that's the issue. You can't just praise good behavior and sweep bad behavior under the rug and hope it goes away by being quiet about it. You have to acknowledge and address bad behavior with a little bit of *negativity*

[@Lillypad3183]

So guilty of this. Not putting in enough time. So glad my pup has been super patient with me.

[@Krystian_1987]

Very useful advice, thank you and best regards from Poland: P

[@maizeblu2099]

The one thing people don't seem to understand is that any goal deemed valuable can often take time to achieve. As humans we have to go to school in order to learn how to properly function in society and for a lot of careers, this means going to school for years. Why wouldn't it be the same with animals?

[@toryruger3164]

I really like what you said about gut instincts. For myself I try to teach my dogs like I would child. Like a child, each dog is different. I always ask my self, how can I convey what I want, so my pup will understand. I usually like both positive and negative renforcement. However when I got my border collie it's positive training all the way!

[@JoshPitts530]

Spot on.

[@gusdagoosesmom4902]

When you talked about "gut instinct" my ears perked up. I have a story for you. I haven't trained a puppy since 1992. My last Golden, Gus was 17 months old when we rescued him (owner turn in because of elbow dysplasia) in 2010. We lost him to kidney failure and recurrence of b-cell lymphoma on 4/1/19. We wanted another Golden and someone knew a family that was in over their heads in a "surprise" gift of a 5 month old Golden from divorced dad to his daughter who doesn't live with them. Auggie was born in a puppy mill and lived there for the first 5 months of his life. The dad was told that Auggie was a dog with fabulous lineage and was AKC registered and trained. Needless to say, AKC means NOTHING. Poor Auggie's mom was only 1 year old (AKC didn't even notice a mistake on her birthday that made her younger than him!) and his dad was 18 months old -- therefore ZERO clearances on hips, eyes, heart or elbows. Auggie was left either in a large crate in the garage or in the family's backyard. He is a VERY smart HIGHLY food motivated Golden who learns EXTREMELY fast. I am learning quickly though that one month alone in a backyard and/or a crate with no toys has made him oblivious to toys or playing with humans. I know that positive reinforcement will work over time, but I am also having to remind myself that "patience is a virtue" because I am SO used to Gus who was totally attached to me and would do anything for just my affection. Auggie is enamored with the yard and the yard alone if he is out there and I have ZERO ideas on how to work on that behavior. First thing we did was hire a "balanced" trainer -- we had no idea what that meant but thye had over 500 5 star reviews so it was "go with the best reviews" -- first thing the woman did was to knee Auggie in the chest when he jumped up at the patio table -- he had not been prone to this behavior and was excited to see a new person. My "gut instinct" was to knee her in the chest, but I acted more positively and told her she needed to leave -- our gut instinct at first was that we didn't want to punish a dog, but they had so many great reviews ... I wish she had never crossed our threshold. She was escorted out and I got a knew trainer. Cost is also often a factor in choice of trainer. The PR trainers are all more than double the cost of the "balanced" trainer. Love your videos -- great one on dog body language.

[@kirstymacfarlane1620]

Great advice my gsd is very protective yet really well trained. I use a muzzle when I have to and she's 9! It's just the way she is, some people she loves and others don't get near me. I do have a spinal condition which has got worse since she was a pup maybe that's why she's more reactive when my husband isn't around which I'm fine with. She's well trained, I know how to keep her safe and that's all that matters to me. She's an amazing girl, my whole world 🐕🐕🐕

[@eugenialexi]

Thanks, this video is very useful

[@seus2731]

well put

[@ddddddddd98]

Thank you

[@dogzone1989]

I have been training as a hobby for years. Took 3 years to get my reactive/fear aggressive dog to walk through the biggest distraction ever. He was ready and he proved how amazing he is. He is not perfect nor will he ever be but with time he came around. Now i have my own small human and i am finding training is taking so much longer because my dog isn't getting 90% to work on it. So i came up with the 10 mins twice a day obedience and 10 mins obedience with toy. Even with hardly any time you can find time and i find many owners just don't because everyone has perfect dogs even though they work 12 hours a day. Funny world we live in now.

[@nicoleminiuk]

Any tips? I have a very reactive/fearful pup?

[@Sandreline]

I don't agree. I think realistic expectations are part of it, but I don't think it's because of some shift in our culture towards instant gratification. If that were the case, you'd be seeing less interest in positive training over time. Which isn't the case. I personally think most of the failings in rewards-based training have to do with rewards-based trainers not putting enough emphasis on reward mechanics and reinforcement schedules. Dog owners are rewarding their dogs incorrectly, and it makes training impossible. We also need to be realistic about punishment. Not every dog that has been punished is a ticking time bomb, and clients know that. We tend to err on the side of hyperbole, and it makes us look irrational. Almost every person knows a stable healthy dog who has been trained primarily through punishment. You're not going to convince someone that their childhood dog was actually miserable all along. Trainers need to be realistic and open about the actual risks involved in punishment, for better or worse. Realistic expectations are important, and I think a lot of dog owners go into training thinking their dog will be fixed in a week. But I think that's just one part of a larger picture.

[@Krissykris1468]

I agree with what you said. This is simply a quick overview of two of the top reasons why we don't see positive reinforcement training work for many clients.

[@kicknadeadcat]

She calls it instant gratification if you want your dog to stop biting lunging at other dogs and people fast. Then order me a big Mac and cheese and I want to quick. Double bacon please.

[@orlandodogtraining2548]

Great video Kristin. As you said, just like people, dogs learn at different rates. Not every person is a Harvard graduate and in a proverbial way nor is every dog. We humans don’t learn a new skill in just 10 minutes, it takes time. We live in a society of instant gratification and we are increasingly thinking that punishment is the way to get out of certain issues. If you have a dog with a unique set of problems and you have found a trainer that might say, “let me check on that or let me ask a colleague,“ hire that trainer immediately. Not everyone has every answer and all the answers. You want to trainer that ultimately helps you and if they solicit the help of a colleague, there is nothing wrong with that.

[@ansonwang9717]

学到非常多，good job!

[@weedandwine]

I finally got the dog and cat to get along.

[@nickyp2820]

Yay!

[@rajashekarashekara9131]

Very fantastic information Kris Thanks

[@danielposner5962]

I think you might just have an old soul in that young body of yours. Good, insightful advice. Thank you Kris

[@Aceofwolves]

Dogs naturally learn through a mix of positive and negative. Do these "positive only" people thing wild dog packs just have infinite treats and praise? No they instantly correct problens by nipping the neck. If you only praise the good behaviors....you will never fix the bad behaviors. And these bad behaviors can result in people getting bit or hurt. And it will be your fault

[@yonetcn]

Dogs don't live in a controlled environment like a Seaworld. There will be a time that the distraction is so tempting that the dog doesn't care about your high value reward anymore. That's why purely positive training doesn't work in a lot of clients' mind.

[@fae3561]

The same can be said for punishment. There are times where distractions are so rewarding that a dog would rather chase a squirrel and doesn't care about getting shocked. Dogs often do live in a controlled environment, leashes and crates exist and you're able to supervise and train your dog to prevent problem behaviors from happening. "Purely positive" isn't really a thing, they often also use boundaries (which you don't need to use positive punishment to establish), "no", as well as negative punishment. There's also plenty of ways to train for listening with distractions and it works wonders. If you put a dog in an environment where too much is going on for them to listen then it's your fault for setting the dog up for failure, and it shouldn't be punished for something that you did.

[@yonetcn]

​@@fae3561 If you teach escape and avoidance appropriately a self-reinforcing behavior such as squirrel chasing can be easily stopped in one or two sessions. A better example is this: some protection sport dogs so determined to bite, it won't out no matter what kind of aversives you throw at them. For sure make the bite target inactive and wait for them to out, or make the biting itself less rewarding, but the biting intensity will decrease. It's always like solving a puzzle when you see a case like this. People like lumping a lot of concepts into "distraction": poor handing skill, poor engagement towards the handler, dysfunctional relationship with the dog, and competing motivators. The better your handling skill is the less you have to correct a dog. Unfortunately, not all pet dog owners are dog trainers, teaching them escape-avoidance is much faster to give the dog a reason to engage, fix their dysfunctional relationship, and have a generally happy life overall.

[@fae3561]

​@@yonetcn The example you've given is negative punishment in a sense, I believe? If you mean decreasing how engaging the target is for the dog so that its no longer rewarding for them, that's a form of negative punishment and is often used with Positive training. Most positive trainers are not actually "Positive Only" especially the ones that work on a professional standard, because solely relying on positive reinforcement WILL set up a dog for failure and will not create a well trained dog, negative punishment is a must. Often times the negative punishment of not receiving a reward because they didn't do a command is a very high motivator for dogs since they're bred to work and to strive towards rewarding behavior. Either way, whether a dog is avoiding correction (leash tug, shock collar, etc) or avoiding the potential of not getting a reward, they are working towards receiving rewarding behavior. Pulling a dog away from something is a negative punishment in itself, whether its the squirrel or the trashcan, so the dog is still being punished. I think if paired with plenty of positive reinforcement + negative punishment as well as plenty of clear communication and clearly defined boundaries (which can be set without positive punishment) and of course good handling as you mentioned, positive punishment in small amounts will probably help with some dogs and not be damaging if not heavily relied on. But a lot of positive training (p reinforcement+ n punishment) seems to show that positive punishment is really not a necessity for most dogs. Most new trainers / new owners will make plenty of mistakes on either end of where they stand and what methods should be used. When people don't know how to use positive reinforcement they do often end up with a dog that does what it wants and doesn't have a clear understanding of boundaries. But on the other hand when people don't know how to use positive punishment it can be traumatic for the dog, sometimes it just doesn't teach the dog anything if they don't use it correctly. Personally, I don't believe positive punishment is a necessity with most dogs as you can stay consistent and strong willed without using it, but there is on the rare occasion a dog that will need it to stop chasing squirrels or to stop going through the garbage (or some other behavior). I do wish that more trainers that utilized positive punishment correctly / without causing the dog psychological damage would go over how to correctly use it and the dangers of misusing it, since a lot of aggressive dogs come from people who didn't know what they were doing. To be completely fair though, I've really only seen the damage done by the Dog Whisperer and mostly watch Positive based trainers, so there are probably more people out there that use responsible positive punishment than I've seen, especially since most of the time people will only ever see when things go horribly wrong. As a (nonprofessional) trainer I personally love the challenge of hyping up a dog to be incredibly excited with working with me, and love seeing them think and make their own choices to figure out what to do, and working through setting up proper boundaries and the dog misbehaving is honestly a thing I love doing with positive reinforcement. It probably isn't quite as fast in some situations, but I really do love the challenge and getting a dog to be fully engaged with you and excited to do it is fulfillment enough for me. I feel like Positive Reinforcement based is a lot about teaching the dog to make its own decisions (albeit the decisions you want) without necessarily forcing it, and I love seeing them start to think and make the right decisions on their own over time, as well as being absolutely thrilled to do it. I'm sure the same thing happens with properly balanced trainers, but I just can't personally bring myself to use positive punishment seeing how horribly it can go wrong if used incorrectly.

[@yonetcn]

@@fae3561 Negative punishment works wonders in some cases, but definitely not in the case I gave earlier. I agree with you to some extent. When I training my own competition sports dog, I used very very minimal aversives, that's if you count spacial pressure, body blocking as some form of positive punishment. It knew focused heeling and contact heeling before I taught it how to walk nicely on a loose leash. I will happily sacrifice some control in the hope of increasing some more intensity in its work. As for my clients' dogs. Usually, they come to me with some behavior issues or their handler cannot handle them at all. I'll start conditioning the prong collar from day 2 and the e-collar in the second week. I don't mean these dogs need a "firm hand" or "harsh correction". What they receive as positive punishment is at most a bump in my knee or a light pop on the leash. The behavior problem usually fades away fairly quickly without me addressing the issue directly most of the time. Can I train these dogs without any aversives with the same result? Absolutely, if the dog stays with me for 4-5 months instead of a 3-4 week board and train. If the handler is willing to learn for 50 hours instead of 10-15 hours to maintain the progress. As a person receiving the money, you have to deliver results to clients in a reasonable time frame. Not spending months teaching the clients how to become a dog trainer.

[@yonetcn]

Properly deliver a good positive punishment and negative reinforcement takes time and skill. When delivered properly it is usually not as barbaric as many positive only trainers think. I know there are people out there who will put an e-collar on a dog from day 1 and tries to correct the bad behavior away. These people will traumatize a dog for sure. Unfortunately, I see far more out of control dogs from the positive side of the spectrum than traumatize dogs from the correction cow boys.

[@antjea.3105]

If R+ doesn't work instantly (in the sense that you instantly see "steps of success"), you're doing it wrong. I often read that R+ takes longer than P+, but in my experience that's bs. All you need is the right reward in the right situation (the rest is timing, management and accepting that it's a learning CURVE for both dogs and humans). If you don't know what your dog desires, training will indeed not work well, but using the wrong "reward" is anything but the definition of R+. When the reward isn't rewarding in the eyes of the dog, it can't be considered R+ training. The same is true for P+. If you punish your dog for barking by shouting at it, but all it wanted was attention, then it's R+ training and works wonders, the dog will bark again, the "punishment" didn't work, because it was actually rewarding. Conclusion: Get to know your dog, see the world from his point of view and any type of training will work wonders, beacuse then you will be able to tell the difference between reward and punishment - their use will be more effective. If the dog is less likely to come after you petted him, petting was a punishment in his eyes. If the dog feels unsafe being watched around food, food won't be considered a reward in that situation. Try out all sorts of interactions in various contexts, via trial and error. It's not so much about the method, but about truly knowing and understanding your dog. Don't learn from books alone, learn from your dog.

[@kat200214]

Totally true! It's like school! Think about how long it takes for kids to learn the basics. We are not punished when we say the wrong answer, or do the wrong thing, we are taught how to improve!

[@1337flite]

Cesar does it in 5 minutes - and it'sTV worthy!!! Just sayin'. j/k :-)

[@i.am.OK.]

Extremely important message, I couldn't agree more with what you said. As always, the problem is people's ignorance and selfishness, not the animal. And that's what 90% of balanced/compulsive training relies on. Without human ignorance, it wouldn't even exist. Another thing: positive reinforcement - per definition - can't NOT work. If it doesn't, you're not using it correctly.

[@Aceofwolves]

I have a question.... What happens when you run out of treats and your dog doesn't listen to you because you only used treats as a copout. What then?

[@i.am.OK.]

@@Aceofwolves I don't even remember watching this video or writing this comment 3 years ago, but I'm just going to write down my thoughts on this (it's gonna be pretty long, it's a pretty complex topic, so bear with me). What I wrote 3 years ago about positive reinforcement per definition HAVING to work still holds true. If a behaviour is followed by a positive outcome, the animal is going to be more likely to repeat this behaviour. This principle of positive reinforcement is true as it stands, but that doesn't mean APPLYING this principle is going to be easy. Firstly, it takes time. "More likely to repeat this behaviour" does not mean "instant 100% obedience". Secondly, every animal is different. What might be a "positive outcome" for one animal might not be one for another animal; not every dog is motivated by treats for instance. But let's say he is, let's say you successfully motivate your dog to repeatedly show the desired behaviour using treats. What you need to do then is to phase out the treats so your dog doesn't become dependent on them. You don't reward every time, but only every other time, so the dog is able to reliably perform the behaviour even when he's not expecting a treat every time. Perhaps you also change up the reward, so the positive outcome isn't always the same: sometimes a treat, sometimes a toy, sometimes outside time, sometimes letting them so something they want to do - whatever your dog is motivated by. And now comes the good part: if this behaviour is reinforced enough (over time), it actually becomes SELF-REWARDING - the action of doing the behaviour is itself desirable to the dog. So in the situation you describe above, the fault lies with the handler. The solution is already in the way you phrased the problem: "your dog doesn't listen to you because YOU used treats as a copout". If you're using treats in this way, as bribery, you're not using positive reinforcement correctly. If you phase out treats, and build up (self-rewarding) behaviour with a long reinforcement history, you'll get a dog that listens to you reliably because he wants to, regardless if you happen to run out of treats. Because that's what it's about: building a positive relationship with your dog based on mutual trust. But that takes (a lot of) time, and it's certainly not easy.

[@thelifeofzoe9201]

My Dogs are not perfect 😆. They are legend ♡

[@leegrass6954]

I do "positive" marker training. It trains the nervous system. But, there comes a time when no has to be conditioned and charged so it has power and meaning to the dog. When can you ever have a dog that doesn't know what 'NO!' means? Never! Depending on what the undesirable behavior is, the negative reinforcers get stronger. There is no doubt about it-- a lunging aggressive dog needs corrections!

[@Anna-hy5ho]

I agree with this. I do love positive reinforcement for training but when it comes to behavior sometimes it seems counterproductive to wait for the appropriate response so you can reward and you have to address what you don't want. When it comes to training your dog to do tricks of course you should use positive reinforcement but if my new dog tries to eat food off my table I'm going to correct him the first time he does it and then reward him for not doing it, instead of letting him make the mistake. I think the reason a lot of people see positive punishment as harmful is because of the way it's applied. If you lean over your dog and scream in their face, that's harmful. But, in my opinion, if you're walking your dog and he gets too interested in something and you keep a happy attitude and just give him a quick tug on the leash, that is healthy discipline.

[@Anna-hy5ho]

I also believe teaching your dog "no" is so much more versatile and a clearer form of communication. Imagine trying to learn a new language but your teacher never tells you when you make a mistake, they only tell you if you say something correct, it would take a lot longer to become fluent in that language than if the Teacher also told you when you made a mistake, not in an angry or frustrated way but in a calm way. That's kind of how I see it

[@susanhawkes2519]

Give the No and wait before applying the positive punishment. Won't need the aversive positive punishment for long. Just the No will stop him for most things after the No is charged.

[@fae3561]

I don't understand why people think positive training doesn't involve setting up boundaries. Part of positive training is interrupting bad behavior when it happens and saying "no" or an appropriate command (ie. "leave it"). Positive training is not just letting your dog run willy nilly, it involves clear communication and setting up healthy boundaries. You do not need to punish your dog in order to communicate that what it did was wrong. Just like you can say "no" to people in real life with out hitting or yelling, you can teach it to dogs as well.

[@asifmetal666]

There was no positive dog training method existed in old times. This new trend started 15/20 years now.

[@lisadurham2545]

Really? There was in my world, a LOT longer than 15-20 years ago! I agree with all you said Kris.

[@deusexmachinawl]

Pure positive without proper corrections will not work in certain situations, full stop. They want you to train a dog for months and still the owner doesn't see the results.. and is the owner's fault? Not always. There are too many trainers that use the so called positive trainers and are not trainers. I use mostly positive but with clear boundaries and limitations, which happens with corrections and structure. This doesn't mean harsh or violence that is a very bad information you are spreading, and unfortunately at least in the UK is all positive training in TV for show. If a training takes years as you say, it simply doesn't work

[@marianach8312]

Walter Lucchesi you don’t understand what positive reinforcement training is. You do corrections, give structure and and create boundaries and limitations using positive reinforcement techniques

[@deusexmachinawl]

So many philosophers of dogs nowadays... I know about the quadrant. I know about positive punishment and positive reinforcement. What I really don't like is the positive crusade who go around with pockets full of treats and badly behaved dogs. I disagree with many things you said, included time. If a training needs years is not training, because you could have lost the dog by then. The problem with dog training is the sheer amount of professors on youtube patronizing other people. I go to the local dog kennel and try to help complicated dogs. Most so called positive trainers would not even get near one of those dogs, who by the way don't want treats most of the times, because they are stressed. At the end of the day, every trainer should come with a set of dogs and show you what he can do for real. My personal experience and that of many of my mates is very negative with trainers, and our dogs are very well behaved with different dogs am bulldog, am staff, rottwailers boxers, GSDs..). I wish you good luck anyway and I can assure you that it is not true that I don't know about training, just because I don't make youtube videos. Wishes

[@deusexmachinawl]

BTW in your training you have just described positive punishment and negative reinforcement, are you aware of this?

[@Krissykris1468]

Walter, I am not talking about extremist positive trainers. Nor am I talking about not hiring balanced trainers. I'm simply talking about why many people believe positive reinforcement training doesn't work for them. I'm a positive trainer and I use negative reinforcement, but I do not use positive punishment in any physical or psychological form. I agree that many purely positive trainers can be just as harmful as an extreme shock collar trainer.

[@deusexmachinawl]

+Kristin Crestejo, CDBC (Modern Canine Training) Thank you for your clarification. I appreciate it! 👍

[@shevel1980]

If you don't use purely positive on children, you shouldn't have to use positive only on dogs. Saying that we want a quick fix is one of the dumbest excuses to justify the utter failure that is purely positive dog training. Sure, it works on training commands, like sit and down. It does not work work on correcting bad behavior. Nobody should be expected to invest months or years on training their dogs with no results, then accused of being impatient or lazy, when they switch to other methods, because they actually want to enjoy their life with the dog. When your 135 lbs. Cane Corso wants to eat your face, I want to see you try to redirect him with treats for the next 5 years when he wants to eat your face every day.

[@LordPurrington]

Dogs aren't humans.

[@shevel1980]

@@LordPurrington Thank you, Cptn. Obvious. Dogs respond to rewards and corrections the same way humans do. If you reward dogs for bad behavior, aka redirecting, it will only reinforce it.

[@fae3561]

@@shevel1980 They also develop anxiety, aggression, and potentially ptsd/trauma in the same way when punished consistently. Consider why the dog is lunging at someone, it is often out of fear/frustration. A confident dog does not feel the need to attack. Some dogs need to be muzzled as well. What do you think happens when you threaten a dog that already views you as a threat? You're only creating more stress. It's either going to shut down without resolving these feelings, or become even more aggressive. Some dogs don't respond to slight leash pressure/harsher tugs and require heavy punishment to actually react, which at that point its basically abuse. In this situation, you create distance to minimize how threatened the dog feels, and reward it before it has the opportunity to feel threatened/react. If you reward after the dog lunges and growls then yes you're going to have a problem behavior, which is why timing is so important. It's the same with punishment, if you punish something at the wrong time the dog will not know what it is being punished for and might react problematically. Timing is important. There's plenty of aggressive dog rehab videos available on youtube that incorporate positive reinforcement (before the dog has a chance to react) and you can watch as the dogs slowly become more and more comfortable with getting towards strangers/dogs/what have you. Any training method when used incorrectly has bad results, but when people actually know what they're doing with positive reinforcement (which is often paired with negative punishment) it works quite well.

[@fae3561]

@@julias4015 I agree that rewarding aggressive behavior will increase the chance of it happening and can become problematic, which is why I mentioned how in the case of aggressive behavior positive based trainers will reward the dog for calm behavior before they get the chance to react, so that they aren't rewarding the aggressive behavior, they're rewarding calm behavior. Building distance between what they're reacting to helps greatly, things aren't as scary when they're far away, it's a technique thats commonly used and recommended. I think boundaries are important, I use "no" a lot without using positive punishment. and will build distance and pull away so that the dog is no longer reactive. You can still communicate with your dog that what they're doing is wrong without pushing further stress on to them. You can set up healthy boundaries without inflicting unnecessary stress. ASPCA, AVSAB, and professional Animal Behavioralists/trainers that understand dog psychology (and psychology in general) will also quite often recommend against using positive punishment. ASPCA and AVSAB definitely discourage use of positive punishment. Positive Punishment discourages behaviors by adding discomfort/stress, and can increase the aggression of some dogs as it just raises their stress level, making an even more dangerous dog. When working with reactive dogs its especially discouraged to use positive punishment.

[@jusker25]

Dude if it takes years for your dog to become trained and behave well than it’s just trash training. Dogs don’t have long lifespan to be waiting 3 years for them to live a normal life. It’s almost cruel to the dog. Like dogs in pack correct and punish each other it’s how they teach each other