'Be A Man': Modernists and Traditionalists Debate Masculinity | VICE Debates

[@VICE]

WATCH NEXT: Asian Americans Debate Model Minority & Asian Hate - kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3e4pphrbax7bsU

[@misterpopo5175]

Give us the uncensored uncutted discussion with the feminists. Since vice equals libtard I can fully understand why it is not in your interest to not show how pearl destroyed them libtardes feminists

[@NiyahStyles]

Thank you VICE 🔥!

[@tyronewilliams2007]

How are young boys and men with testosterone running through their veins, and being boys and men considered toxic. Why are the masculine women not considered toxic femininity? Being masculine has everything to do with testosterone, not how you feel, men grow some balls because women have been running isht for a while and society is falling apart because of it it goes against everything in the animal kingdom. Society has been civilized to the point of extreme comfort thanks to a man's masculinity/testosterone/strength and now women in particular want men to turn it off in the same fashion as they do their feelings and feminity when they are in the face of a man crying in front of them, when in fact they/women seem to be more interested/attracted to the masculine man. GTFOH If it were not for us we would all still be cave dwellers. Soft, sensitive, emotional men. That's funny! Show me a soft sensitive emotional lion and I'll show you a loin getting ran from his territory.

[@animestuff3732]

Bias Lieing Low Life Sh*t Stains 😡

[@user-ht2fi3ys1r]

vice this is why ur my favorite channel 🤲🏼

[@amyegreene3852]

The lineup of men was pretty diverse except for the absence of anyone 65 or older. We have the potential to grow until we take our last breath. The elders should be present during these conversations as well.

[@rparks623]

Excellent point. They (we) could have cleared up some confusion. I'm 70.

[@PublicDebatess]

@@rparks623 dam. What’s it like being 70 if you don’t mind me asking

[@herbertdonnellgrayiii4305]

They don't have any testosterone left

[@2mlncore618]

right???? justice for hot daddys #dilfs

[@Abangamaboouse]

@@rparks623 what do you have to add to this conversation that hasn’t been said? Me as a youngin (19) like to assume that all older men are unconvinceable when it comes to changing their traditional views of masculinity.

[@americanhumaninterferencet7550]

Pink shirt guy really gave me the impression of a man who has learned and changed a lot. He must cherish his daughters and really value them as individuals. He recognized his flaws and short comings, and how he could have treated his wife better as a young man. Age and wisdom often go together

[@SilentXtract]

I think he saw the best and worst in humanity he’s been to war he cherishes life probably more everyday bc some maybe a lot of his fellow marines will never have the ability to grow from the aggressive combat infantryman to a man away from war and being able to wake up to watch the sunrise instead of fighting to survive the next sunset

[@oipolloi4242]

That's a soldier bro, rise to the occasion.

[@americanhumaninterferencet7550]

@Kevin O'Toole I respect the hell out of any man who can see combat and still learn to live in peacetime. It's a hard thing, making that transition is not a given. I think that's why tragically mental illness is extremely common amongst marines.

[@liqwidmediaworkztv]

He also seems like the most traumatized. I feel like he’s holding back though.

[@congondubz6257]

He should sort out the "wife" issue, and then he will be fine.

[@alyssareinke1357]

Seeing people have a conversation even when it gets uncomfortable is so healing. These talks NEED TO HAPPEN.

[@michaelgill387]

these people are hand-selected. this conversation would be different if you took 12 random men. more soft left-wing comedy.

[@torihuerta7039]

The non-binary individual, Griffin, was trying to prove that the notion of masculinity and gender roles are social constructs that ultimately uphold patriarchal systems and oppressive power dynamics. They challenged the idea that certain traits or behaviors should be exclusively attributed to men or women, arguing that these gender norms are arbitrary and limiting. One of the main disadvantages for the other men in understanding Griffin's perspective was their deeply ingrained beliefs and experiences surrounding traditional masculinity. Many of them grew up in environments where specific gender roles were enforced, and deviating from those norms was discouraged or even punished. As a result, they struggled to separate their personal identities and values from the societal expectations placed upon them as men. Additionally, some of the men seemed to conflate masculinity with biological differences between males and females. They viewed traits like physical strength, aggression, and logical thinking as inherently masculine, rather than recognizing that these characteristics can manifest across all genders and are often shaped by cultural factors rather than biology alone. The promotion of the gender binary and stereotypes about men stemmed from a desire for stability and predictability. By adhering to prescribed gender roles, these men believed they could more easily navigate social interactions and relationships. The idea of a "real man" provided a clear set of expectations and guidelines, even if those expectations were limiting or harmful. Furthermore, some of the men derived a sense of privilege and power from traditional masculine roles. The notion of being the provider, protector, and leader within a household or society appealed to their desire for control and status. Challenging these gender norms threatened to undermine their perceived superiority and the benefits they reaped from the patriarchal system. Griffin faced pressure from these men because their perspective fundamentally challenged the ideologies and beliefs that many of the men had built their identities around. By deconstructing gender roles and promoting a more fluid understanding of gender expression, Griffin posed a threat to the men's sense of self and the social order they had become accustomed to. The men's resistance to Griffin's perspective was evident in their defensive reactions and dismissive attitudes. Some accused Griffin of promoting an "agenda" or tried to discredit their experiences as a non-binary individual. Others clung to religious or biological justifications for traditional masculinity, unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints. Overall, the non-binary individual faced an uphill battle in trying to introduce new perspectives on gender and masculinity to a group of men who had been conditioned to uphold the very systems and beliefs that Griffin sought to dismantle. The pressure they faced stemmed from a deep-rooted fear of change and a reluctance to relinquish the perceived privileges and power associated with traditional masculine roles.

[@anukaee8520]

I don’t think a single conversation shouldn’t necessarily heal you, Gods word is true and read that

[@JayNit2]

​@@anukaee8520😒😒 there is more to life

[@LewisC-t1f]

Try that with women, see how that works out! They’ll cry and start screaming right away. 😂

[@because-strudels]

Some of these comments say something spot on: "masculinity" is being confused with just being a decent person. I lost count of the number of times I've thought to myself "that's not just a man thing" when I've heard someone tell me "I'm a man I have to be responsible, provide," etc

[@SojuCait]

I'm not a man and I hold doors for my grandma, walk her to her car, open the door. It's literally has nothing to do with being a man.

[@Mike_E_DeShaman]

😂yall full of ish

[@FoxInTheBasement]

Right! If we expect our wives and our daughters to be brave, honest and reliable, then why do we then say that those are masculine things?

[@infernityable1369]

Keep that same energy when conversations about "toxic masculinity" come up. Unless, of course, you think it's acceptable to assign negative characteristics and behaviors exclusively to one gender while insisting that positive characteristics and behaviors always have to be talked about as universal to both genders as if that isn't bigoted and hateful.

[@benardrepay]

men used to be a provider and it’s getting destroyed with this soft world now

[@purugigi]

Please let this guy host every debate from now on. Definitely the most professional guy at Vice.

[@doby5]

Krishna is awesome !!! Very perceptive member of Vice and knows how to talk to people well. Always happy to see that fella on the Vice New. :)

[@MrCherryzz]

@@thescribe3184 You got a paint. In the last video with the feminist panel the one person that seemed calm was the one that was born a guy.

[@ttnecniv1321]

He’s always great !

[@banewillrise6818]

Of course Vice could not find 1 masculine man to show up to this clown show. Masculine men don't sit around like a bunch of women discussing masculinity.

[@IonizedComa]

@@MrCherryzz men try avoid that type confrontation of because when men fight it's not pretty. When women fight they most likely to just immediately start pulling hair

[@dutch160]

The guy bottom left blue shirt is the man who has changed his life the most. You can see and hear it when to talks I wish him all the good things in life.

[@James-ip8xs]

You can definitely see he has thought about himself deeply

[@davidortiz2026]

how can you tell, like what did he say?

[@eli-gabriel]

The One with the cowboy hat is my favorite

[@davidortiz2026]

@Caesar Muncada Watch the video response is so lame and overused. Can you try for once in your life to be original. I asked a simple question.

[@undercover_idiot]

@@davidortiz2026 Tahoe, has in my opinion, such a healthy view of masculinity, simply because he is secure in what he believes but is also willing to listen and empathize. It's his ability to use perspective that makes him seem like a great person.

[@brendandegal9980]

"There were 20 of us on the corner, and none of us had dads." -This breaks my heart

[@jamesmitch9792]

thank neoliberalism

[@jrambo7495]

Divide and conquer. Break up the traditional family. The US GOOBERMENT is responsible for this!!

[@xMXWLx]

you must be new.

[@IHMadeThis]

@@jamesmitch9792 Thank the War on Drugs.

[@travperk]

not just 20... times that by 40 million. All around the world, all missing from action. There are a lot of corners out there

[@sneasnake6368]

As a woman, it’s interesting how many of the things they describe as “masculine” are things that I also want in my life. I want to provide for my loved ones, I want to make my family feel secure and protected, and I am willing to be self-sacrificing to accomplish these wants etc. In the end we’re all beautiful and unique in our own way, but deep down I believe that we’re all more similar than we think (and more similar than some want to accept)

[@ChrisP-zj5jq]

sneas: You sound like a Mama Bear or Lioness. What happens when an outsider (man or beast) tries to mess with one of THEIR cubs??? Human females are animals too! LOL!!!!

[@johnnyvo9313]

I think you had to become the man in your family for some reason, probably because the man you were with was absent or lacking in masculinity.

[@A-RedHerring]

Because feminism has told you to get up, go work, you don't need no man etc. etc

[@Owens777]

Cause many of those qualities are just being a healthy individual that cares for themselves and others 🤷🏾‍♂️ we should all know how to step in and be successful with these aspects of life. Many people just cherry pick traits that serve their perspective.

[@lazylurker2842]

Yeah because both men and women have both masculine and feminine traits

[@ozwzrd15]

Pink shirt man - clearly has spent time thinking, evolving on how to be a better man, in a non judgemental way. Most impressed with pink shirt guy

[@Lurch685]

Sounds like he got his balls chopped off, frankly.

[@MattieMacaya]

Yo same. Like I came from what I saw on tiktok but a lot of these men are pretty even keeled

[@AcidicJO]

Him, the black dude from the hood, the gay black dude, cowboy hat to a degree. They all have some past experiences, we could say trama that they are actively working through and trying their best to be good people. Not making excuses for themselves, just really trying to be a good person. I love to see that. It’s like an underlying evidence that we can overcome.

[@kaym7704]

@@AcidicJO cowboy guy? The zealot spend all his time talking about God.

[@Heyoka-gq4wl]

No tree, it is said, can grow to heaven unless its roots reach down to hell - Carl Jung

[@darasimiAdj68]

The black man from New York on a blue shirt is the one I loved listening to the most. He seems like someone who has experienced a lot of growth. I also loved the way he listened to everyone.

[@Moi_81]

Agreed. He was my favorite.

[@Genki.Z7]

HE IS KUKING TO FEMINISTS. BLACK BETA STATUS: KUKKKKKKKKKKKKKED OUT!

[@CryingOrc1]

His name is Tahoe. Tahoe Brah, Stay Up Ma Bruh.

[@tuonabatchelor7915]

Yes, him and the girl dad in the pink shirt were my faves

[@Nyxedmisfit]

He paid full attention to the others, looked at them when they talked

[@bye230]

pink shirt guy looked so worried for the future of his daughters with men when he heard that guy talking about first dates 😭

[@ye.sxniaa1057]

REALL

[@ER-sj4vk]

My dad actually taught me to always bring enough money to a first date to pay for myself, but he also taught me to look for someone respectful. He would laugh his ass off at that guys comment

[@ffreshfields5211]

Facts. He was like "this guy is not good"

[@yeti2turnt435]

I think it actually brought up a good point. Its not just other men dictating what traits are considered to be masculine amongst men. Women also play a role in shaping masculinity by choosing specific traits they are attracted to in men. Everything he named on that list that are expected out of men on the first date are considered masculine traits. Women also play a role in shaping what it means to be masculine.

[@ffreshfields5211]

@@yeti2turnt435 those things are not expected on a first date unless the woman is a very shallow and materialistic type of person. Some women are like that but most women are not like that. It is not hard to choose how we want to be and not go out of our way to play into stereotypes. He is making it hard for himself. It's just the same as women who do not play into stereotypes by not buying boob jobs or lip fillers. Some women will say or believe it is expected by men to look like that but most women don't care one bit about any of that and live life their own way, define their femininity their own way, and do not bend backwards only to find validation from the wrong type of men. It's pretty simple. You actually have to go out of your way to play into shallow expectations. Being yourself is easier, unless you actively WANT to be fake and wear a mask or to seek to impress over finding a genuine connection. He could easily suggest a date of a romantic picnic by the sunset instead of dine at some glamorous pompous restaurant without thought put into it. Women hope to meet a romantic and thoughtful man. It is a matter of whether he wants to put his feet on the grass and take off his polished shoes and show his authentic self or not and whether he chooses to find a more meaningful connection or not. Some men seek power or sex or validation or what not, while many men just want to meet a compatible match with substance and someone they could really love. The latter comes with confidence and maturity

[@hieno9014]

From a man in Asia Country, seeing those men sitting together and had a conversation even when it is uncomfortable and still open up is freakin healing and Improvement for the entire manhood in the world. We need more of this. Thank you VICE

[@kodzodoamekpor2387]

It would have been great to have older men (over 60) and teenage boys present. I want a part 2

[@oryxthetakenking8275]

I don't think they could've talked about sex as freely if a teenage boy was there. Dude with green eyes on the right was definitely the youngest and probably around his 20s, and fit the role of young men imo

[@sad_vegan507]

I agree but not with the teen.

[@blackflagdre6134]

Men over 60s would be looking at the panel funny, because the conversation itself has elementa of emasculating men, and men over they're 60s wouldn't tolerate a good portion of this conversation

[@yaikhonba]

Teenage boys are not men

[@maceymc.7612]

​@@blackflagdre6134 you still need an older man's opinion, because of his experience.

[@joyedet1363]

This wasn't even a debate, it was a REAL conversation.

[@ianhansen6840]

Amen!

[@rickyy5129]

it’s crazy how much different it was to the all women panel they had

[@iren5792]

@@rickyy5129what are you trying to insinuate? Just because they had a bad panel of women doesn’t mean it reflects the whole gender 🤦🏽‍♀️

[@shutup3565]

@@rickyy5129 stfu immediately shut up this is affecting women more than it will EVER affect men. We have a right to be angry.

[@nassim-kameleddinehouha3095]

@@iren5792 no just the women one was too peesonal yk

[@cualter]

As a woman, I wish the feminist debate would have proceeded as calmly and respectfully as this men's discussion did. This was a pleasure to watch and I took away some new perspectives.

[@NK_299]

Men don't argue usually they discuss and then come to conclusions!! I am thinking if there was beer or something they all would be best buddies 😅

[@jakkobg1981]

Lol you watched the same thing, man the women were all over the place it shows who can actually have a sit down and talk. No disrespect to you as a woman.

[@cualter]

@@kassiebattle8279 So what? Both are heavy topics and the format is a discussion. If anything, the women's debate was more biased towards the feminist side by sheer numbers, yet most comments I see from women claim that the panel was unfairly picked to serve some malicious agenda conspired to paint feminism in a bad light. Your reasoning sounds like a cop out. We need to hold ourselves to higher standards of debate, otherwise we'll continue to feed in to harmful gender stereotypes.

[@DeanGrand]

men aren't fighting for what they believe to be equal rights (outside of stuff like BLM, but that's not based on gender) the way women are, and the fact that the viewpoint of feminism is so divided, of course their debate would turn into a huge fight, because when you are so passionate about something, fights are going to break out during debates.

[@kassiebattle8279]

@Cu I agree the women’s debate was not much of a debate, but you can’t watch this video and say that the women should have acted the same way when the topics are very different. Masculinity isn’t political - men are not fighting for rights to their body or constantly in fear of being raped. Sure, the idea masculinity effects every man, but it is no secret that VICE literally couldn’t find an equal topic for men because there isn’t one - there aren’t any political advances that are directly attacking them.

[@welcome2myhappyworld]

21:06 I really do enjoy most of Griffin's points, however, when someone just admitted they were sexually assaulted and feel like they arent taken seriously when they bring it up, that is NOT the time to downplay their experience because it statistically happens to women more often. As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, the "Me Too" movement was great at helping me feel heard and not afraid to express my trauma. Being able to share my story has helped me cope immensely. Men who have been abused have just as much a right to share their stories and be heard and taken just as seriously. Sexual assault should not pit men against women, it should be about giving victims a voice against their abusers.

[@marialves9017]

He just said that is not meetoo movement who made his frineds not believe in him

[@welcome2myhappyworld]

@marialves9017 Yes, it's not the #Metoo movement's fault. Everything Griffin said was true, I'm not arguing against the point, I'm trying to say that situation could be handled with more tact. When Cowboy Hat admits that he was sexually assaulted and feels like he's not allowed to talk about it, the best way to respond would be, "it certainly is difficult to talk about experiences with assault, while women are primarily victims, men also suffer. And because of toxic masculinity, some men are made fun of or dismissed when trying to bring it up. This is why the #MeToo movement is so important" or something to that effect. Instead, the way Griffin spoke felt dismissive and I guarantee you that Cowboy hat will never bring up his sexual assault again because he was dismissed and he will feel like women are "privileged " for being able to talk about their trauma while he has to hold his in because no one cares. Cowboy hat said he felt like people always dismiss his story because he's a man and then Griffin immediately dismissed his story because he's a man. That was wrong.

[@welcome2myhappyworld]

@marialves9017 long story short, what Griffin said really came across as "your story is valid and all, but women have it worse, so we should focus on them instead."

[@sealguru35]

That’s true and was really shocking to hear from them but I guess they felt really opposed to the Cowboy guy and that’s why they talked this way but it’s for sure not a reason to dismiss him. I’m really sorry that this happened to him and that Griffin (a person whose points of view are the closest to me) said this

[@faithsparks7566]

Yeah he was absolutely shut down which just proved his point. ​@@sealguru35

[@melimelz4948]

The only Vice interview I’ve been able to stomach watching, here’s a group of men who know how to wait their turn and speak with grace. Very refreshing to see.

[@CB13212]

Men usually are better at having conversations it’s women who interrupt constantly ?? 😂

[@VOLCAL]

THANK YOU VICE FOR BEING INCLUSIVE OF ALL RCES AND GENDERS AND BEING FAIR ABOUT HOW YOU REPRESENT EVERYBODY....THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE CASE WITH THE US MEDIA FROM 1995-2017....(2 DECADES OF MEDIA SELECTIVE RCSM.)

[@ericantone8709]

@@CB13212 *Insert offensive generalization here*

[@matthewmunoz1859]

This is obviously very much edited, you can tell they were taking over each other the whole time

[@casperchristensen6451]

@@matthewmunoz1859 What are you talking about. No you can absolutely NOT tell they were talking over each other, like at all. That's either the best editing I've ever seen, or these folks were just normal, chill and respectful towards each other. Try watching it again, friend.

[@KevenTalks]

I loved the perspective of the guy in the bottom left corner (blue shirt). He had the most open-minded, non-judgmental take, and a desire to genuinely learn what the others think.

[@alfonsomendez9787]

He’s literally the radical feminist right there. Radical, radical. I mean, maybe even misandrist.

[@KevenTalks]

@@alfonsomendez9787 Wasn't that top left corner? 😅

[@mv2530]

Yeah him and the dude with the glasses near the top left and the bearded top row dude without the cowboy hat aswell

[@mv2530]

Ig but I thought they were spitting fax tbh

[@DF-es6tx]

No he thought his way was right

[@raccoonpunk707]

My dad spent 9 hours working, always made sure to be back for dinner. Learned to braid my hair in the evening, so my hair wouldn't be a nightmare. He cooked, cleaned, did laundry (actually taught me how to iron his work shirts) He learned to let go of toxic masculinity. And he became what i aspired to be and what i wanted in a partner.

[@neveahcarter1105]

That’s so sweet

[@hopelessromantic9342]

Same here, my dad used to do the exact same also learned how to curl my hair when I was younger, but also dealt with a lot of "manly l" stuff around teh house. Amd my mom recently got diagnosed with cancer and he basically takes care of her 24/7 and I help around the house. So yeah my dad has been the best role model for me and I look for someone like him in a relationship and fortunately I have found my bf who my dad is really proud of.

[@laurayt3]

That’s less than the bare minimum

[@et3rnalrest]

@@laurayt3then why do men have such a hard time doing what’s LESS than the bare minimum??

[@xzyeagerist1673]

@@laurayt3 sadly a lot of men can't even do that

[@deniseferron3397]

I’m a 60 year old woman, and for most of my life I’ve had men tell me that women were already equal (as far back as the 1980s all the way up to #MeToo). Hearing grown men admit to having male privilege just washed away decades of gaslighting and feels tremendously refreshing!! Thank you, gentlemen.

[@lisa_xts]

More than anything, the interviewer did a really great job facilitating this session. What an informed and impartial human!

[@rukiabibi2015]

I agree,name of the interviewer

[@mrb2643]

They want you to hate being a women so you must change, and then hate you for being a man so you must now be non binary

[@JustGotSomeIdeas]

There were a lot of jump cuts

[@thecrimsondragon9744]

Krishna is decent.

[@GettingMilkSon]

Heavily edited but I do think they were pretty chill for the most part

[@KaylaJosephine]

This conversation has been good so far (I'm still watching) but I just want to say to the guys, if you can't afford a $150 date don't take the women or person you're going on a date to a restaurant that expensive. MOST women are fine just grabbing a coffee, and if they aren't then they aren't for you.

[@olaines9154]

Right!

[@caitnewbold1676]

This!! My bf (now husband) felt bad that we couldn’t afford our first date. I was like “Then don’t spend money.” So we watched the Big Bang theory and ate grilled cheeses at his apartment. We’ve been married for seven years now.❤

[@CheyanneWillingham]

Especially taking someone on a first date to a fancy place is gonna build high unrealistic expectations and if you don’t deliver on those of course the woman is gonna ghost you

[@wellhowthehellareya]

Exactly! In fact I think coffee dates take the pressure off both parties tbh. It’s cheap, it’s public, it’s casual. My ex felt so pressured to impress me with fine dining that it just became a chore to go out. I would tell him I didn’t need that nor did I want that but still it went in one ear and out the other. I felt so bad every time we’d go out and I’d even insist on paying and that just offended him. It just didn’t work out between us eventually. So I plan to only have coffee dates in the beginning and even throughout my future relationship.

[@mayz1223]

This is exactly what I was thinking. Aside from sugar relationships or other financial arrangement relationships i think anyone expecting someone to spend 150 on a first date is pretty incredulous. Ive seen the argument that girls who don't want this aren't as valuable as girls who do expect it. Or that how much money a guys spends = his interest and effort. I think both of these ideas are hurtful to everyone, men included, and cause a lot of issues in dating and building meaningful relationships with people. Most of the women I know are absolutely fine with a simple first date, because really you are just meeting up with someone to feel it out.

[@moniquegilbert607]

As a female raised by my dad, I don’t think it’s the father figure or mother figure you miss. I think what you’re feeling is rejection pure and simple. It hurts for a parent to not want you. I don’t think it’s their gender you miss. It’s their presence.

[@camrynnichelson1349]

Perfect take. I never thought about it like that before.

[@d.derreck_2191]

Nevertheless, every child needs a female and a male in their upbringing/life.

[@ffreshfields5211]

@@d.derreck_2191 As someone who had that, but who was raped and severely mentally and emotionally abused in childhood, I think what is even more important is to have safe and loving parental figures than what their gender is. Also, people who have a only one parent or two same gender parents, may still have male and female role models and strong inputs in their upbringing if they are very close to an aunt/uncle, much older sibling, grandparents, etc. There are so many different ways to grow up and different people around who can be a male or masculine and female or feminine guidance. The worst thing, is having people but who are absolutely abusive and downright dangerous as opposed to being positive role models at all. What we need most, is love and positive examples of safety and kindness and responsibility, whoever will show and give us that

[@mistyvaughn6356]

My dad was absent and even though I know I always had his love, I still hurt for his actual prescence. It felt like there was a gap in our family.

[@mrblend]

Disagree... but I can see why you think like that. Statistics show that kids raised by Single moms... majority go downhill where as....kids raised by Single dads do way better. And kids do overwhelmingly better with mom and dads at home

[@Novemberrrrr]

As a woman married to a wonderful husband it has never in my life crossed my mind to define what a „real, masculine“ man is. A lot of what is being said by the participants to describe what a man is or should be, to me is completely independent from gender but just describes types of people.

[@shadamyandsonamylover]

I think that’s what the blond guy in the heels was trying to say. I agree.

[@JoshuaPlaysMusic]

I identify most with the Marine. I served in the US Army Infantry for 15 years and, I am a girl dad! Having a daughter taught me more about masculinity than the Army ever could have. It has taught me kindness, empathy, and that it's ok to cry.

[@garrettr3644]

I absolutely loved his perspective. I enjoy every single second that he was talking.

[@danishane5215]

Lmao thats not what you call masculinity sissy. Pride, passion and stoicism make a man

[@blank4227]

I think it actually taught you about femininity

[@ilovewarw2]

@@blank4227people avoid the troll

[@blank4227]

@@ilovewarw2you gotta be a huge troll if you think kindness, empathy, and crying are not masculine as F*CK bro... heh, wow

[@zarkiaburton4514]

The fact that they all came together to have a difficult conversation and conducted themselves so well is great progression.

[@bestjenkins2165]

Thats like saying that they are barbarians normally. Men feel more comfortable talking with other men because women can get closed off from what they are saying by the simplest of things

[@yessicastro7236]

It’s because men are logical, not emotional lol. We can agree to disagree without the need to announce it.

[@anotherday-anotherslay]

@@yessicastro7236 i'm not even going to try to unpack that statement lmfao

[@yessicastro7236]

@@anotherday-anotherslay because you cant.

[@NTEDOG561]

@@anotherday-anotherslayyea don’t

[@kellyfitzpatrick527]

“People have told me I have BDE” THE CUT TO GRIFFIN’S FACE DESERVES AN EMMY

[@aaaa.789]

when was that did i miss it 😞

[@surrealhope7635]

Around 36:42 😭

[@ye.sxniaa1057]

REALLLL IT WAS SO FUNNY

[@MsParty216]

Like nobody told you that Sir! Lol

[@BuffaloWings505]

😂@15:50 He complains about basic manners like opening door, walking on the road side of side walk, making sure she's homed safe etc. Ain't no way anyone is saying this dude has BDE 💀

[@ankiking]

“I work hard and take care of my people” That is every woman I know

[@muhindorobinah7122]

I love how organised they were. Respectful, even in their differences. No rage. Respect!

[@jones2277]

there was some sassiness though.

[@pburn883]

Yea watching some of the female panels and then coming to this one theres a clear difference in how they engage their differences in views. Felt way more respectful around opposing viewpoints

[@conorfennell8475]

Agree 100 % but there was one fly in the soup who was acting as if this was a debate about men and women... they just through that person in to piss people off

[@kevinwilliams7470]

Yeah I just watched the feminist panel, and wow!!!!!!! Huge difference!

[@icebrg.]

The female version of this was wild. Men just know how to communicate respectfully.

[@sejutibarua930]

Griffin calling out the other dude's daddy issues and ending it by muttering "Freud" is peak comedy for me 💀

[@sarahwhite6622]

😂 exactly baby on the end needs therapy. Or knows that they can't use this "idea" to justify why they need sugar daddies. Like honey you making it too deep.

[@Evitaschannel]

The guy was so touchy and definately got triggered by just hearing the word "freud"

[@juankusoff]

It’s typical female behaviour. That’s why you like it.

[@gdroz1927]

But what he said was true tho ;-; don’t we all define our standards, wants and needs from a partner based on our life experiences and what we like and don’t like. Isn’t that why everyone is so diverse in the dating world. We all don’t like the same type of people for a reason. I can go out on a date with a guy and not like him at all and then set him up with a friend and she adores him. I wonder how & where griffins preference in a person came to be? It’s all subjective at the end of the day. Griffin seemed a little toxic and when it came to some men on the board he invalidated their experiences and feeling which when you listen carefully all of these men came to agree that part of toxic masculinity root is men not being able to be open or speak about their experiences or feelings.

[@elfullin]

@@gdroz1927possibly, but he wasn’t saying that having those preferences due to our past experiences is a wrong statement, he said it’s important to understand why we have those preferences. There is a reason the dating world is filled with people with baggage, because they haven’t done the work of understanding themselves, and it ends up hindering the relationship in the future which I believe is a huge contributor to cheating and also divorce.

[@itisntsoeasy3252]

I really appreciate the nonbinary person, the pink shirt guy, and the man in the blue jacket. It feels as if they're very conscious of the nuances of why women feel the way they do about met. It's very refreshing to feel heard in that way, and very hopeful as someone who lives in an area with a lot of men who act in a manner which says "I do not view you as equal to me"

[@Jeremy-wp4yh]

So what is your opinion of the cowboy hat?

[@itisntsoeasy3252]

My opinion is this: I come from a religious family with a dad with most of the same views as this guy. I see what type of person he is, and it's not somebody with malicious intent. He's somebody who derives masculinity from god, which I have no issue with. Being a stereotypically godly-masculine man is not wrong at all. I just hope that he's also the type of person to potentially be understanding if a man or woman does not fit his definition of womanly or manly and afford them the same attention and compassion as someone else. Considering he knows what toxic behavior is like, I feel like he has the capacity for that. @@Jeremy-wp4yh

[@jamesmccloud7535]

​@@Jeremy-wp4yhNegative I'm assuming 😂. In my opinion cowboy hat was based

[@lilzz-vu5lv]

@@jamesmccloud7535 actually he wasn't bad. He is basing his idea of masculinity on his religion but he didnt say other people should follow his religion or that men who are feminine shouldn't be expressing themselves in the way they want. I usually don't like Christians because a lot of them are judgemental and push their religion on other people but those who aren't are alright.

[@soobunii4871]

what about christian? (the one with a black shirt) i personally think he was one at the best at doing that

[@sydneybird2462]

As a modernist woman, I really enjoyed this conversation. 6:00 stuck with me because I know exactly what he's talking about. There are SO many people who truly believe that men and women need to have specific roles and act a certain way. There are women out there who will strongly judge a man if he does or says anything that could be perceived as feminine, which is so immature and stupid - he's just a person, let him be a person. Likewise, there are men who will judge a woman harshly for not wearing makeup, not dressing up, not being a homemaker, etc., generally just being a normal person and not centering their lives around appealing to men or making themselves seem attractive. We're all just people. Any mature relationship between men and women - regardless of whether it's romantic/sexual, platonic, etc. - needs to be grounded in the understanding that we're all just human beings regardless of gender. Every single thing your partner does or says is not going to be attractive, because it isn't meant to be. They're just a person living their life. Every second of a person's existence does not have to be something you find attractive.

[@rizon72]

I find that in relationships people are all about this 'equality' which doesn't seem to be working. Femininity and masculinity are an equal but different part of the relationship and I don't think we know what either is anymore.

[@adiba8822]

very well said.

[@tonyonaperky2128]

These women are all talking about being victims of the "sassy man apocalypse" simply because men aren't putting up with their bad behavior..

[@StacyJulien]

Great response.

[@ArethaFrankly]

Pink shirt, blue shirt, and the non-binary person have the best minds on this panel. Overall an insightful conversation.

[@mindkiller5720]

Because they put work in who they are now, they all experiences "self crises" and they learned the right thing out of it. It's take a lot of strength to move on, from the person you was build because of environmental pressure, to become the person you finally able love in yourself.

[@WockyXSlush]

They also have the biggest propensity for mental health disorders 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 You’re also a “🙊🙊🙊🙊🙊🙊”

[@ArethaFrankly]

@@mindkiller5720 All of this. Particularly for the two men I listed, it appears to me that they have let go of this idea that to be masculine is to have dominion over others and that they are more interested in being good people and positive assets to their communities and society at large. There is also nothing more attractive to me (and I do not mean romantically or sexually) than a person who can be open and transparent about their growth and move to be a better person by releasing their egos, but also without self-flagellating and or being overly apologetic. I saw that in those two men, and I love that for them and their loved ones. That's how you heal and break generational curses.

[@justsayin7416]

I was thinking the exact same thing!! Especially considering the hyper-masculine environments they grew up in. I was especially impressed by blue shirt’s empathy and intelligence. It’s so clear that he’s put in a great deal of effort to understand himself and the world around him. So great to see.

[@ArethaFrankly]

@@justsayin7416 Agreed! And I hate to say I’m “impressed” because it sounds patronizing, but I really mean that I’m impressed because I understand what a feat it is to overcome his conditioning to talk like that. It’s one thing to question and maybe know something isn’t right. It takes a whole other level of bravery and love for the self to actually buck that conditioning and move differently. Despite myself, they’ve given me some hope that things will be better for future humans.

[@thegreatdeconstruction]

Protip: Don't spend $150 on a first date. Get a coffee, go dutch, do something where you can have a conversation. If you are struggling after a date then you falsely advertised yourself as a person who has $150 to spare.

[@acog_quarks8753]

If dudes going after women that expect $150 dates, then he need to either switch his standards or nut up lol

[@art4hawkeye]

exactly, why spend 150 on someone when you dont have the means anyway.

[@jerbsherb4391]

The dude was bullshiting like crazy. No way you are spending that much money unless you are going to some high-end restaurant. Also, if a person has all those expectations in the first place, then they have other agendas as well. Don't date people like that, and don't have an expectation that you will be laid that night.

[@wonderunicornninja]

Right. & even then, coffee is expensive enough as it it.

[@samiirj8414]

I agree it is his choices to spend $150 on the 1st date, you can have a perfectly fine 1st day for under $100

[@SeriouslySteyn]

These guys really made me proud. Complete different types, and they 95% respectfully discussed a lot of topics.

[@blank4227]

they were almost entirely all the same type of guy

[@Ballum4114]

@@blank4227 they were very diverse…

[@blank4227]

@@Ballum4114 I suppose they all wore different shirts and shoes yeah

[@spurdosparde1355]

​@@blank4227We have a christian cowboy, asian fitness coach, a non-binary person - a homosexual black guy, a retired US marine, someone who grew up in the hood, an asian new yorker, and an ghenian american. This is a very diverse lineup in my opinion

[@blank4227]

@@spurdosparde1355 It's really cool that they all wear fun little costumes but they never ended up seriously disagreeing on any topic. Only one of the Asian guys (the one on front) had anything interesting to say and they barely let him speak.

[@EstherFontenelle]

I don’t think people talked about how GOOD the host is… seriously, love this!! most professional, intelligent and interesting host i’ve seen so far

[@slaphappybullet]

Griffin and Tahoe were a team in the conversation and I don’t think they were fully aware of that, which made the way their points fit together all the more interesting. Their different backgrounds fleshed out their similar points to a more comprehensive presentation to the listener. Also mad respect for James, the marine with three daughters. That’s pretty much who my dad was- a guy who grew up in the machismo era, a bit sexist, also a marine, and in having three daughters, his perspective on the world flipped.

[@geniec9755]

Not you spilling

[@novelista14]

Those three really carried this for me. There were a few times when some of the others were speaking that I almost turned it off because it was cringey and frustrating.

[@pidgeon2699]

they carried frl

[@Breegan]

I feel like because of the experience Tahoe has and how fresh and young Griffin is, is what makes them so good together. Tahoe understands from his own experiences what he did wrong and he can explain it to the rest of the men in an easier explanation. I feel Griffin is sort of having a tougher time trying to explain themselves, probably because of who they are (the others thinking they have less of an opinion because of their identity, which i feel keeps happening..) but again that’s why i think they’re a great team. It seems whatever the group gets confused about what Griffin is saying Tahoes there to help and explain or “dumb it down,” for them.

[@LowSlungBadBitch]

@@Breegan yes exactly lol.

[@snejjankhahcbcrew9347]

If you spend 150 on a date and next week you are broke then the problem is not the girl ghosting you, it's you being irresponsible with money and live on top of your financial means. If you can't afford a 150 dollars date, there is nothing wrong, a date does not have to cost that, you can have a walk in a park , take a coffee etc. Same goes for a girl, she should not go out on a date if she can't afford to pay the bill. Just stick with your possibilities people.

[@apple3354]

abe then the girl should pay for her own food..

[@susannehuber3996]

Correct. You could cook for her or do a Picknick in the park. Also if you take me to a super expensive restaurant I’m not paying YOU CHOSE THE RESTAURANT NOT ME.

[@snejjankhahcbcrew9347]

@@susannehuber3996 Of course. The one choosing the date pays. I don't understand these people spending more than they can afford just to impress, it does not make sense, and is actually a turn off for me because if you bring me to a place which is not on your budget just to impress me, actually I will think that you are financially irresponsible, which is not cool.

[@PrincessJewels08]

It just goes to show that men think throwing money at women equals an obligation on the women’s part to give them what they want. The point of taking someone on a date is the spend time and see if there is a connection. If she doesn’t feel it then she has the right to move on, no matter how much the guy chooses to spend

[@dead7781]

Always the guy's fault...

[@theg-master9831]

Nothing is more masculine then all these guys having a respectable brainstorm/debate. They're all calm and reasonable, well spoken and they all look like they take care of them selves. Good one dudes!!! Succes in life

[@pankyrangful]

The non binary was passive aggressive af with some of they're responses and body language

[@aaronayy]

​@MuhammadHassan-hi6fc your proof toxic masculinity is still so prevalent and harmful

[@aaronayy]

​@@pankyrangfulI don't think they were necessarily passive aggressive they stated every time they disagreed in a respectable manner

[@Aliesm90]

Watch the female. Cats & comments are turned off 😂

[@GR8119]

The trans dude was ready to fight whenever "woman" was mentioned. He wasn't listening, just waiting for them to stop talking so he could disagree.

[@torihuerta7039]

The non-binary individual, Griffin, was trying to prove that the notion of masculinity and gender roles are social constructs that ultimately uphold patriarchal systems and oppressive power dynamics. They challenged the idea that certain traits or behaviors should be exclusively attributed to men or women, arguing that these gender norms are arbitrary and limiting. One of the main disadvantages for the other men in understanding Griffin's perspective was their deeply ingrained beliefs and experiences surrounding traditional masculinity. Many of them grew up in environments where specific gender roles were enforced, and deviating from those norms was discouraged or even punished. As a result, they struggled to separate their personal identities and values from the societal expectations placed upon them as men. Additionally, some of the men seemed to conflate masculinity with biological differences between males and females. They viewed traits like physical strength, aggression, and logical thinking as inherently masculine, rather than recognizing that these characteristics can manifest across all genders and are often shaped by cultural factors rather than biology alone. The promotion of the gender binary and stereotypes about men stemmed from a desire for stability and predictability. By adhering to prescribed gender roles, these men believed they could more easily navigate social interactions and relationships. The idea of a "real man" provided a clear set of expectations and guidelines, even if those expectations were limiting or harmful. Furthermore, some of the men derived a sense of privilege and power from traditional masculine roles. The notion of being the provider, protector, and leader within a household or society appealed to their desire for control and status. Challenging these gender norms threatened to undermine their perceived superiority and the benefits they reaped from the patriarchal system. Griffin faced pressure from these men because their perspective fundamentally challenged the ideologies and beliefs that many of the men had built their identities around. By deconstructing gender roles and promoting a more fluid understanding of gender expression, Griffin posed a threat to the men's sense of self and the social order they had become accustomed to. The men's resistance to Griffin's perspective was evident in their defensive reactions and dismissive attitudes. Some accused Griffin of promoting an "agenda" or tried to discredit their experiences as a non-binary individual. Others clung to religious or biological justifications for traditional masculinity, unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints. Overall, the non-binary individual faced an uphill battle in trying to introduce new perspectives on gender and masculinity to a group of men who had been conditioned to uphold the very systems and beliefs that Griffin sought to dismantle. The pressure they faced stemmed from a deep-rooted fear of change and a reluctance to relinquish the perceived privileges and power associated with traditional masculine roles.

[@HenryGray7401]

very well said

[@jjoohhhnn]

I don't think most men would describe the role they're expected to play as a privilege. That's your outsider language, it's like a biological male trying to describe a period, they just don't know what they're talking about, really. Also, griffin downplayed every mans issues. Major "man up for the damsels" energy. Even for the guy who said they were SAed.

[@juliepowell8494]

Bravo. And if this was not clear, Griffin is amazing. ❤️❤️

[@gummygrenade]

@@jjoohhhnnThey reaffirmed the guy who was SA’d the only part they challenged was the idea that MeToo was responsible for that SA.

[@jjoohhhnn]

@@gummygrenade He said MeToo didn't include enough male victims, which is just true. And then Griffin said yes but women, and then someone else tried to blame the woman committing SA on men, cause it's actually mens fault for 'creating the culture' that made her do it. Like women have no agency, or like men are impervious to social influence, or maybe just plain sexism 'women can SA men but men can't SA women cause that's how I feel'. No excusable way to interpret that interaction. 21:30 If the genders were reversed in that interaction, you'd be fuming. IDK why switching the genders should matter, though for an individual instance of abuse, aren't all victims equal?

[@alexanderavanth]

I’d love to see this topic explored outside the US. There are many nuances to this topic when changing the cultural context.

[@ingmarsjansons3665]

Totally agree. As I guy who comes from post Soviet state and last 14 years living in Denmark where I met different guys from different countries, I can say, there are big differences between attitudes, beliefs and ways, man expreses them selves.

[@Lisa-zi6hb]

@@ingmarsjansons3665 I don’t think Slavic men for example would have preferred to not pay on the first date😂

[@ingmarsjansons3665]

@@Lisa-zi6hb yeah, in Latvia 🇱🇻 where I come from its normal when man pays for dates and so on, also usually man is the one who invites girl out, so to ask to pay would be very weird. But in Denmark 🇩🇰 when I've been on dates with local girls, they offer to share half and some of them even don't want to accept situation where I pay all the bill and it feels awkward for me...

[@Zejva]

@@Lisa-zi6hb not all post Soviet countries are slavic majority-

[@Kimmy234L]

Totally agree!

[@ThoughXperiment]

Tahoe, a freaking King, a man man, a guy who knows who he is, a guy willing to see beyond his own existence and feel empathy, capable to growth and rise above. That's what we women respect and love.

[@kapsaucy6590]

Is empathy an ability or an action?

[@ThoughXperiment]

@@kapsaucy6590 I believe it's a choice. Even if science shows that empathy it's a developed ability, in my opinion this ability, as any other ability, requires thoughts and actions, hence, it's a choice.

[@MyTruth1771]

Women favor men like Tahoe because he has learned to say the things women like to hear. He's attuned to this, especially because he's momma raised. Look at the time where he said "especially us who grew up in a super masculine house". He just made that up because previously he said he grew up without a father in the house. Then later he talked about feeling like he has to perform for women. But the pink shirt guy and the Cowboy hat guy are the kind of men that are the foundations of society.

[@mattias5157]

A symp I guess? No you don't. You praise them with you mouth but cheat on them with bad guys. A well known fact. Few men are fooled by what you say anymore, hence the decline on the dating market. I'm sorry sis, those days are gone.

[@ZelgiusK]

in some things yeah, but he touched the topic of "we as men choosing or deciding what women do with their bodies" refering to let them kill their offspring, it is a no no for me, so, not a true King if he let his offspring to be killed. But yeah, he is spot on, on many topics, good guy for sure.

[@Imawindybreeze]

Cowboy hat calling out the ableism was honestly the most positively surprising part of this whole video. I disagreed with a lot of his opinions up until that point but was glad that I shared that sentiment/insight with him

[@TheEverFreeKing]

Opinions you would never expect reside in the hearts of many. For instance on my right winger that affirms transgender people even though I found the non-binary person on this panel insufferable personally. I really liked the cowboy he was charming and you can feel that he's doing his best to be a good man.

[@KadarOfficial-lg2zr]

​@@TheEverFreeKingyeah I honestly don't see how men can't agree with the cowboy he seems very humble under God... Unless you are a non believer you won't understand where he's coming from 💯

[@JoeMama-gi1so]

​@@KadarOfficial-lg2zrI understand that he is coming from a place of delusion

[@Manhattan384]

@@JoeMama-gi1sowhat an inappropriate and immature response.

[@1THETUFFGUY]

the cowboy guy is the only one not confused as to what a man is! I agree that God has given men and women a position and role in the family and the best way to iive in that role! The problem now is that we have left the better way and now we are left wondering what a man is?

[@haolinames2679]

What these men fail to realize is that when they complain about women or femininity, they are discussing women as constructed by a patriarchal society. When women in relationships demand too much, it's because they are placed in a vulnerable position, forced to choose partners who excel in male competition and who are willing to take responsibility for long-term commitments. When men feel the need to be more responsible or experience increased pressure, it's precisely because the gender role that defines a "masculine man" is suffocating them. If men were willing to share societal resources with women, to give them opportunities for promotion, to let women have the time to pursue their careers without the burden of childcare, and to grant women the socio confidence to not having to care too much about their appearance, then women, too, would become the ones who pay for the first date, who chase career success from dawn to dusk, and who provide the warm protection that men desire. At the end of the day, people are people, not just men or women; everything depends on our collective choices and actions.

[@KaiDecadence]

Very beautifully said. Deep down the issue is that men (as a class, not every individual) created this problem and to fix it, men have to set aside the ego and try to fix this, not expect women to fix it for them when they had nothing to do with it in the first place.

[@nathansellars3757]

​@@KaiDecadencewhich men exactly created this? 99.9 % of men had nothing to do with creating any system you clown

[@christinamendonca6185]

Some women do the most tho😂please accountability, some women devalue themselves so much thr bar in hell

[@aguy9071]

Being a man is “it’s always your fault”. This comment proves that

[@wildfire9280]

@@KaiDecadence Women have more political power than men do. And men do not control the system as a class because men aren’t a class period.

[@SARAHizROCKIN]

Griffin's facial reactions to some of what they were saying were killing me 😂

[@maeheminger6035]

i loved watching them cuz i was making those same faces💀

[@christinawolf2407]

Me too.

[@aspebb]

Why was a non-binary person there in a discussion for men?

[@inni_k7767]

​@@aspebb i can see how it can be weird, but as an afab non binary person i feel the need to be included in conversations about being a woman because i was most of my life socialized like that and i can see the situation from outside and from inside. Some people still think i'm a woman so i still can have those experiences. I think it's the same

[@BigTroubleD]

@@aspebbI appreciated the non binary person SO MUCH. They made some very very important points where it’s about being a morally decent person not just because you’re a man.

[@pmarie72742]

We need part two with these same men. This was extremely interesting, especially as a woman.

[@sad_vegan507]

Same

[@sad_vegan507]

Griffin is a rock star

[@MrTrigz]

What did u take from it

[@pmarie72742]

@@MrTrigz check on your man and other men that you know. I had no idea they thought this way, and that’s sad bc I should have known the men in my life better. Check on your guys mental well being, not just your man but every man you know. ❤️

[@loveisthemostpowerfulforce1397]

I'm curious to know your perspective. What are masculine traits that masculine man would have? Both personality and physicality wise.

[@realm3164]

As a therapist who is dealing with these issues in my self and in my clients. This is one of the best conversations I've seen on the topic.

[@monsieurimhim6147]

A therapist is a puppet of Satan

[@O.A.F_B.A.S.E]

Hmmmmm......lmfao

[@zeenuf00]

It's people like you who destroyed western culture

[@torihuerta7039]

The non-binary individual, Griffin, was trying to prove that the notion of masculinity and gender roles are social constructs that ultimately uphold patriarchal systems and oppressive power dynamics. They challenged the idea that certain traits or behaviors should be exclusively attributed to men or women, arguing that these gender norms are arbitrary and limiting. One of the main disadvantages for the other men in understanding Griffin's perspective was their deeply ingrained beliefs and experiences surrounding traditional masculinity. Many of them grew up in environments where specific gender roles were enforced, and deviating from those norms was discouraged or even punished. As a result, they struggled to separate their personal identities and values from the societal expectations placed upon them as men. Additionally, some of the men seemed to conflate masculinity with biological differences between males and females. They viewed traits like physical strength, aggression, and logical thinking as inherently masculine, rather than recognizing that these characteristics can manifest across all genders and are often shaped by cultural factors rather than biology alone. The promotion of the gender binary and stereotypes about men stemmed from a desire for stability and predictability. By adhering to prescribed gender roles, these men believed they could more easily navigate social interactions and relationships. The idea of a "real man" provided a clear set of expectations and guidelines, even if those expectations were limiting or harmful. Furthermore, some of the men derived a sense of privilege and power from traditional masculine roles. The notion of being the provider, protector, and leader within a household or society appealed to their desire for control and status. Challenging these gender norms threatened to undermine their perceived superiority and the benefits they reaped from the patriarchal system. Griffin faced pressure from these men because their perspective fundamentally challenged the ideologies and beliefs that many of the men had built their identities around. By deconstructing gender roles and promoting a more fluid understanding of gender expression, Griffin posed a threat to the men's sense of self and the social order they had become accustomed to. The men's resistance to Griffin's perspective was evident in their defensive reactions and dismissive attitudes. Some accused Griffin of promoting an "agenda" or tried to discredit their experiences as a non-binary individual. Others clung to religious or biological justifications for traditional masculinity, unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints. Overall, the non-binary individual faced an uphill battle in trying to introduce new perspectives on gender and masculinity to a group of men who had been conditioned to uphold the very systems and beliefs that Griffin sought to dismantle. The pressure they faced stemmed from a deep-rooted fear of change and a reluctance to relinquish the perceived privileges and power associated with traditional masculine roles.

[@zeenuf00]

@torihuerta7039 no one in western culture is insisiting that certain behaviors or representations be exclusively attributed to men or women. This is what woketarda do - they base their entire paradigm on unfalsifiable assertions . And not only that - the lgbtqxyz world actually reinforces the so-called oppressive social constructs that it claims to dislike.

[@z-past1454]

This conversation did have good flow, but ngl I feel like there is some clever editing here. I feel like there were arguments and banter we just didn’t see

[@mactherealestateman]

I like the fact that these men let each other talk. You learn more from listening. Overtalking never works. There is no 1 answer. Even as a Christian, that doesn't always mean you wont ever get confused. Who we are changes everyday.

[@marrokraff998]

Except the gender bender! He had most conflicts with everyone else! The gay guy, the Asian dude with the business and the Christian cowboy. He took everything out of context and threw shade. Ironically the hood guy and the military guy were the most sensitive. Probably a combination of trauma situations and having daughters.

[@VarunK-ii8eb]

Because there are no women.

[@stoningupper]

​@@marrokraff998I think the commie shouldn't have been there since they don't wanna be a man

[@jasonfuentz4282]

Oh. look the incel brigade.

[@VarunK-ii8eb]

@@jasonfuentz4282 aww sad femcel.

[@Someoneelsegotmyname]

Tahoe sounds like a genuinely great human being. If his upbringing and early life was as bad and he was as bad as he made it sound like, he should be really proud of who he is now.

[@craigandnem4597]

Tahoe is confused. He’s not a Tahoe, he’s more like a Dotson B210

[@redefiningblackmasculinity9921]

I'm Dillon, and I was on the panel. I loved being a part of it and glad I had the opportunity to hear others' insights and share my own. Thanks VICE for the opportunity, and thank you everyone for tuning in!

[@renealvarado817]

You were the only one the panel who seemed to be combative. I have to say you weren't very open minded and shifted blame on toxic masculinity only to men. I would encourage you to be more receptive and accepting of others if you want the same treatment.

[@theworldamongus12]

@LTM i agree to accept someone for who they are but this person also encourage the individual to become open minded. But I must disagree with accepting someone’s closed mindset and disregarding any possible negative influence they will have onto society.

[@boutwhatever7520]

I sure as hell hope u wasnt the thing in the back with the dress on🤦🏾‍♂️ i wouldnt have been able to take anything it said serious

[@snejanaceneva3455]

@@boutwhatever7520 things like you make me sad. the fact that you don't have the mental capacity or emotional intelligence to look at a person presenting differently than the box you've created for yourself makes me incredibly sad for you. we can't take you seriously if you are not willing to grow out of your own learned dangerous beliefs. i sure hope you are not that type of person.

[@snejanaceneva3455]

you were one of the people on this panel who give me hope that some men are willing to learn and grow and i thank you for that.

[@ginatembo8003]

The conversation is absolutely necessary. I am not a video editor by any standard but some tangents really needed to be fleshed out and I can notice when the cuts were made. Is there any way we can get an undoctored version?

[@telhado55]

This panel was fantastic. Adults talking and giving each other some space and respect to have decent conversations.

[@brucethedawg]

Very different than the debate about femininity

[@abnerrenaud6768]

​@@brucethedawg bruh, was about to say that 😂😂😂😂

[@zinazina6367]

For sure!

[@zinazina6367]

​@@brucethedawgYessssss I totally agree!

[@TangiersIntrigue]

I absolutely loved the takes of the hood guy. And I loved even more to see the synergy between him and non-binary person. I admire and applaud the fact that he took the time and dedication to learn more and be respectful. He was leagues away from the person he started out being.

[@connor2205]

" Vulnerability for men is often times viewed as surrender " I felt this immediately

[@HonkHonkler]

Because it IS

[@aguyinlove]

If men were vulnerable like you girls are saying "is okay", humanity wouldn't have reached these heights. We need support, not help.

[@andreionac1109]

It's normal to be vulnerable sometimes, just don't stay that way

[@heathersmith9262]

@@aguyinlove okay... sorry, may I ask what is the difference between support and help? Because usually they go hand in hand and yes, women need to facilitate that being vulnerable is human and is just fine coming from a man. But please this was an interesting statement and I want to know more... how do I be a better support to those in my life or those that may enter my life?

[@TelzAll]

Change that midnset. Some of y'all are mentally ill and murderous simply from rejection. That's not okay.

[@katelynwhite100]

The veteran exudes personal growth and is incredibly inspiring

[@DChris3]

Definitely. Strong father. That muppet with the bleached hair rolling his eyes every five seconds had me laughing tho hahaha

[@yikes710]

100%, at first I totally thought he was going to give off "I need the skyman to be a man" vibes like the cowboy, but he was actually quite a stand up individual and is probably a great father.

[@matteframe]

Fitness guy exudes incredible posture

[@alijibran3255]

@@yikes710 I personally am an atheist but your response in demeaning a persons viewpoint into a pathetic straw man means you should probably rewatch the video .

[@VerBAASingwekkend]

@@yikes710 Why did you think that at first?

[@Amm6ie]

christian & griffin getting into it on anything was my favorite part ngl

[@rik.writing.roughly3058]

So much respect for the Marine. I served in the Corps as a young man, and being in a hyper masculine sphere makes you a toxic man, because he who fights beasts, must be one to survive. The man who grew up in the hood captured that in it’s perfect essence when he talked about being around other tough guys on the block. He grew as a person, accepted his own problems, and took responsibility to act better than he used to be. Mad respect for you sir, I strive to be better than I used to be, and to become more compassionate. Thanks for showing that it is possible to be a man, and to show empathy. Semper gumbi

[@leondavid8128]

The “hood” guy talked on and on about “the patriarchy” and how men had all of this power……….then he revealed that he and all of his friends grew up without fathers. Whatever toxic behavior he learned and misconceptions about what masculinity and manhood was, came about as a result of growing up in a pseudo matriarchy where single mother female led homes are the norm. He’s just been brainwashed to think that only men have power and are toxic

[@rayala111]

The Marine has a great perspective and has really taken a lot from his life experiences. Great contribution to the conversation.

[@warmonger82]

Fellow crayon eater here with three words The Great Santini Best movie ever made about these issues

[@sotetsotetsotetsotetsotet2379]

Imagine calling people living in a village in a random village, driven to self defence because a global superpower decided they wanted some oil from your garden, beasts.

[@moonysteps8064]

Good luck with your work on yourself!

[@hershe782005]

That man expressed when he was sexually harassed and those two men devalued his experience because it "happens more to women." That struck me

[@jjoohhhnn]

Super common for men, in all situations.

[@StarScreamReee]

Typically toxic feminized men who were raised to put women foremost. They aren’t there as representing manhood they are there to represent women as an “ally”. They always speak to undermine men as well in their language.

[@kerryberry___]

Yes! That upset me because that was the point he was trying to make.

[@coahomma6794]

That's sick.. What happened to him matters!

[@Stormsong93]

Yup they straight up proved his point right then and there without realizing it.

[@xoxochata]

the fact that teddy bear jacket only refers to grown women as GIRLS speaks a lot for his mindset lol

[@goddessahjia2623]

caught that too, seemed bored and every topic went over head

[@Eddietheteddie]

You've never heard a woman call men boys? You may be looking too deep into this hahaha

[@Nyxedmisfit]

He probably doesn’t care if they’re women or teen girls, from the vibes he’s giving off.

[@amai_mochi2161]

I'm also doubting that the genuine reason for him getting friend zoned multiple times is being too small/ not having big muscles

[@avalonjustin]

@@Nyxedmisfit Yes, more spurious claims because you disagree with him! Surely that will prove you're correct.

[@amanda-wy4xl]

Might be helpful to learn that vulnerability does not equal weakness. There is strength is recognizing, addressing, and coping with how we feel about what we experience. Emotional intelligence is a strength.

[@jynx18kaz]

1. The host or arbitrator was amazing 2. This group is full of grownups, the female group was not 3. This was a decent structured conversation that allowed almost everyone to finish the thoughts they had. All in all this is the best conversation I’ve heard on any topic in this day in age.

[@diypictures]

My guess is because outside of a little from the religious guy, they didn't really have anyone very outspoken on this panel that was on "the other side" of the argument.

[@48677]

Because they had an Andrew Tate supporter in the female group.

[@48677]

@@intimatespearfisher I wish they hadn't invited a literal supporter of a r*pist and sex trafficker.

[@48677]

@@intimatespearfisher Lmao and how exactly are most women any different? My point was that they unfortunately invited an Andrew Tate supporter in the female group.

[@48677]

@@intimatespearfisher Some guy on the internet BAHAHA 😂😆🙄

[@thbcruj86fhj]

It's comforting seeing some of the older men who have gained empathy & whose minds have changed with age & experience

[@zinazina6367]

For sure.

[@lsdiesel8025]

I know it’s happened for me. Growing up in the 80s in the USA I know I had been taught what people call toxic masculinity by society & now that I live outside the country I’ve been able to shed a lot of that. It’s refreshing to hear other men being able to reflect on their upbringing & learned behaviours that we can mature out of.

[@Genki.Z7]

THEY ARE BOOMER CUCKS. THEY ARE: KUKKKKKKKKKKKKKED OUT!

[@JoeHertler]

This host was thoughtful and patient. Did a great job, seemingly, at making everyone feel comfortable to express themselves; he made them feel like their thoughts of the subject mattered. He didn’t condescend or patronize. We’re all humans and we only really know what we know - and exploring tough subjects through honest conversation may the best way to learn and grow.

[@Unbothered.design]

Well said Joe! Sending you and your the family my best!

[@dubonkies]

A pleasant surprise seeing you in these comments haha! You’re a legend man. Love your music 🤙

[@jasonstevens3071]

True, but he also allowed certain opinions to be expressed as if they were fact without challenging them.

[@R_A_3000]

@@jasonstevens3071 Like which ones?

[@jasonstevens3071]

@@R_A_3000 - (1) 15:12 - Griffin said, "Men experience oppression based on the intersection of their identities." - What does that even mean? Can we clarify that? Why was that idea accepted as fact without being clarified or challenged? (2) 20:00 - Christian said, "Men have more sex, men cheat more, they have more affairs." Says who? In 2023, women are more promiscuous than they've ever been. (3) - 21:29 - Dillon said that men invalidate other men's experiences with being victims of sexual assault. That may be true, but women do that also. I've had men call my manhood into question, but I've never had anyone challenge my manhood more so that my own wife. Women minimize the masculinity of men ALL THE TIME. (4) 20:45, 22:22, & 23:03 - When they were saying there is a double standard that exists in the area of sexual assault, and that men can't complain about life's difficulties, Paul was explaining the pressures of being a man, and how if a man can push through, he can be successful. Griffin asked, 23:24 "What does that have to do with being a man?" Sure, women also have life's pressures too, but they didn't acknowledge the fact that society does expect men to do things that they don't expect women to do. Men are expected to be altruistic in ways that women are not. When crisis occurs, men are expected to sacrifice their lives to protect women and children. Women aren't expected to do that. If a ship is sinking, women and children will be allowed to take their places on life boats first. Men will only be allowed to do so AFTER women and children. And if men don't behave this way, their manhood is called into question. They glossed right over that. There were just a lot of gaps in this conversation. I mean, it was good, but it wasn't thorough enough for me.

[@ashleykellon]

Black woman here. For me…and at 10 mins is the video…my heart needed this conversation! To hear the gentleness in some of this panel. I have a son and I worry. That many have chosen to unlearn harm is damn empowering.

[@udonfrenzy]

While I agreed with Griffin the most out of anyone on the panel, I respect the hell out of Tahoe. He has truly done some hard internal, emotional work and I know he has more fulfilling relationships in his life because of it. I wish him all the best.

[@BigTroubleD]

Yeah I really appreciated Tahoe and the way he spoke about how he likes to take care of his woman and how he’s learn when to be soft etc. I really like that in a man and potential partner.

[@fraiIest]

@@BigTroubleD same here!

[@sabir1208]

Something most men are completely unwilling to do realistically

[@freesoftwareextremist8119]

You agree with the clown?

[@sahilprasla7130]

I appreciated and agreed with a lot of the things Griffin said but I felt the judgmental looks they were giving to some of the other guests was unfair when everyone was there trying to learn and also express their truth

[@BRIA_music]

This video left me longing to hear more of the conversation. Those 43 minutes blew by and I wish I could listen to them speak about manhood for hours. This was refreshing to watch, thank you.

[@doasty]

I think some are confusing masculinity with being a responsible respectful person

[@Black-ICE92]

Exactly

[@elani9624]

that comes with being a man

[@gamer1X12]

this is literally a part being masculine and a gentleman lmfao. thats like saying some people are confusing femininity with being a mom. yeah sure, its not always the case but dont act like there isnt an association 90% of the time. you sound ridiculous.

[@BroJo676]

A masculine man is a man who knows to take responsibility for his actions and manages to be there for people who needs him, especially the family he is creating.

[@ratkillerthe]

I didn't watch the whole episode because of "walk with lord jesus christ" dude...BUT I heard a lot of "being a man is being responsible" and "getting things done", so... things a fully functional grown human being should be able to do.

[@indreadixonsedwayms9056]

The black guy with the light blue jean jacket is very informed, aware and educated on the subject matter. I am so glad that men are having these kinds of conversations. Keep on communicating, males.

[@Bshdjdj-lt7by]

Black women already have most abortions hes just reinforcing that

[@Boobalopbop]

Don’t ever spend $150 on a first date, bruh. That’s really not necessary. First date should be about getting to know each other. Maybe go for lunch at a simple Chinese or Mexican restaurant.

[@tank100286]

It's so easy to spend that these days. Especially if you do dinner and a movie.

[@botanicalbecca8443]

Appreciate this comment. 👏🏼 My husband and I had our first date at a small mom N pop Chinese restaurant. None of the staff spoke English. Food was bomb! Service was great! We've got four kids now and been married 13+ years. 😌

[@jamesmontana1881]

The problem is WOMEN & their EXPECTATIONS 😐

[@zacharysmith4787]

He overcompensated because he wanted to impress her and be liked. I can't really blame him, but there are other cheaper ways.

[@taliahblair91]

@@zacharysmith4787 exactly like no one said he had to spend that much, there’s plenty women who would love to go get coffee or a small restaurant. If you can’t “afford” her standards, why date her…

[@mikekavanaugh1348]

I gotta say that whether or not you agree with anything said during this, I appreciate the fact that this is just a talk between people. No ego, no drama just conversation. Kudos Vice, Kudos.

[@Kekorast]

100%.

[@aivorymentoring]

Seriously. I'm so grateful to all of them.

[@wishyouwerehere3430]

Top left was a little dramatic though

[@PLou-ne9jb]

see that the panel only consists of men? 😀

[@hellogoodbye4061]

They should have taped this one before the wacky one with women and required those women to view it beforehand in order to know how to behave, the feminists in particular.

[@aannalynn1515]

This group brought back my faith in men. Even with different view points, they were all extremely respectful and reasonable.

[@Artliker1234]

Men are often like that around men

[@KingJamesNephew]

Good men are still in this world. Our mouth has been muzzled on speaking on any topic let alone about masculinity and feminism.

[@KingJamesNephew]

Cause then we’ll come off as a misogynist, weird or creepy. That’s why it’s hard for men to be honest to women.

[@Usmcvet585]

Go watch the feminist one lol completely different

[@aannalynn1515]

@Usmcvet 3531 very true. Most of the all female debates are just a yelling match

[@almightyace3581]

That was strangely great I was expecting arguments I loved how there was disagreements but they kept the conversation I just wish I could see the full conversation without cuts

[@Mim1971]

This was one of the most nuanced, mature discussions on this topic I've seen. I watched the Feminism panel and is was horrific to watch how that very important discussion unfolded. This panel was able to listen to one another and respectfully respond. Frankly, I thought this was the MOST modern exemplification of what it means to be masculine.

[@lauragesicki5499]

As a woman, I totally agree with you. The female panel bombed because it was clear most of these women were not in a 2 parent household where a strong humble and self sacrificing man took the lead and protected. Always remember hurt people exist because the were unprotected and not consistently nurtured by the adults in their life. This is true of men and women. But women always cry over it and men always find a way to quietly succeed. This is the difference. Hasn’t changed since the beginning of time. That being said I do love and respect both men and women. But the narrow road, the traditional ways, the generational positive cultures handed down through family continue because they work.

[@sammierose1150]

I 100% agree with you, except for 29:21 where all I could think of was *“The girls are fighting!”* 😂

[@kgh065]

how can't you see that this film is so edited that the real debate isn't visible

[@tetesperm]

​@@lauragesicki5499 it is very clear you're not a woman. Its sad how you felt the need to degrade an entire gender because of your superficial and highly priviledged beliefs. Women always cry about it do they? 1 in every 3 women have been assaulted but of course you wont see that. Women who hate on women, considering you even are one and not just a troll, are the most heinous of people to breathe this air and you're a prime example of that. How much strength does it take to hurt a little girl? How much strength does it take for the girl to get over it? Now which one of them do you think is stronger? Hopefully you finally grow up and reach to a correct consensus.

[@doobie245]

@@lauragesicki5499 You can’t say stuff like that and say you love and respect women. Men have oppressed women since the beginning of time so to say men have been on top while women cry is extremely misogynistic

[@johnsheppard4428]

If you're struggling after paying 150 for a date, you couldn't afford that 150 date. Live within your means and find a woman that respects you for that.

[@1saamor897]

it was a joke. and he is right

[@katvogue2871]

This ❤❤

[@tula1433]

Lmao blame him for modern day womens ridiculous expectations! Sadly he can’t sell nudes like most women can on onlyfans while demanding men not be “broke”

[@promisedaryl8726]

Women never respected broke men though and most people are broke in our current economy. View literally any radio song every from the new gen Female artists. "Broke boys don't deserve no P**ssy" Long story short, men lie because women judge.

[@lisreads4872]

@@tula1433 you can sell nudes too buddy, what's stopping you?

[@belogikal]

I love this discussion. At moments you can see realization in their faces about certain things they're battling with that another seems to have a different perspective on, and that's a beautiful thing. Please keep this discussion going, even if it's a different group of people! These are pivotal topics to be talking about in an open environment.

[@laffalot328]

I watched this debate when it first came out, and here I am in 2024 STILL loving it. This was such a great/diverse group....Vulnerable, humorous, and thought-provoking dialogue. LOVE IT!

[@bryanunderhill7657]

Pink shirt at 5 minutes nailed it, we are discovering what it means to be modern man as we deconstruct our past. And blue shirt at 26.5 minutes also. Great conversation.

[@oeao2841]

Crazy cus I'm a Vet and one day I cried in front of a group of vets at this mindfulness class...after the class this Vet from the class who was in the army came up to me and said "I wish I could cry" ...that's stunned me to this day

[@listoh]

you loose the ability to feel anything after a while. its just blah after a certain point

[@hayden9389]

I suffer w/ this. Im just not sure how to cry. Its not something my body automatically does anymore. But i want to, and need to express my anger or pain somehow, but have no idea what medium i can do so with.

[@anneb889]

@@hayden9389 Watch the first 10 minutes of the movie Up. I don’t mean to joke…..but honestly, a guy at my job was telling me how he was bawling and he’s like this is a kids movie??

[@SoftDistorsions]

@@hayden9389 Watch Evangelion Neon Genesis series and then the movies + Devilman Crybaby if the movie UP doesn’t do the trick. Every time I need to cry, I rewatch the end of Evangelion or an episode of Devilman, but you need to have watched all of it before hand) and I almost always cry. They are rough, but the core messages beyond the gore or whatever are actually beautiful ironically. It reminds me of what it is to be a human trying your darnest to get by, trying your best not to hurt others even if it will inevitably happen sometimes, trying to be yourself… And remember animation is not a genre, but a medium to tell stories and messages if ever you think it is only for children. These are definitely not for kids. Do not watch these with kids around. I watched them in my late 20s, and they still stuck with me. If those are too hard to watch, a total opposite and sweet one that might make you cry is the series .

[@Wooplot]

That's so sad.

[@Ianmundo]

the way these guys allowed each other to contribute to the conversation and share their views, an impressive example of the range of modern masculinity

[@dfield3dg]

Most Definitely. Before I saw this one I watched the one on Feminism. And it wasn’t anywhere close to how well this conversation went

[@AET1689]

Loved this convo! Blue jean shirt jacket, black tee, black dress and pink button up had my favorites on panel! I appreciated their contributions a lot

[@sameriah.6148]

Dillon, Griffin , and Tahoe were the only ones I truly resonated with and understood and were making factual points . Everybody is still talking about social constructs and things they’re and were conditioned to believe . I wish more people like them 3 were there to educate.

[@polygondwanalanda]

I agree with you. This trio was the best.

[@i_love_musique333]

You resonate with dismissing sexual assault😬

[@purrrrrl]

@@i_love_musique333Timestamp please

[@naomisdcr]

​@@i_love_musique333no one was dismissing SA

[@i_love_musique333]

@@naomisdcr Responding with "now you know how women feel" after a guy tells you his story of being sexually assaulted is dismissive, disrespectful and nasty.

[@usethis4511]

“Oh this sucks I have to pay, oh this sucks I might get murdered” I screamed lmaooo

[@tonyonaperky2128]

That's non comparable. He used the wrong compatibility.. as we have to be careful from women as well. So your screaming was for the wrong reason

[@usethis4511]

@@tonyonaperky2128 Wth are you talking about?

[@lildel7698]

Men get set up by women all the time

[@lildel7698]

Most men aren’t trying to go to jail for a girl they just met

[@usethis4511]

@@lildel7698 I’m aware, but it has happened and continues to happen.

[@cadencasey7233]

Fantastic debate. It's important to hash these things out with people from diverse backgrounds and world views. The non-binary person was in a tough position because every other opinion was very different to theirs but I'm very glad they were there to express their thoughts too.

[@archivaltendencies]

I think that's because as a gender non conforming person you already need to have so many conversations and reflections about the meaning and place of gender and masculinity, they're basically lightyears ahead of the men in the room. Trans people are experts.

[@jjoohhhnn]

@@archivaltendencies In my experience, most of the trans community takes the radfem perspective on men/masculinity which many, many men find so reductive and generalized it's absolutely useless. They talk around issues but never approach them from a masculine persons perspective. So while they may understand femininity better, they definitely don't understand masculinity.

[@i_love_musique333]

Their thoughts being dismissal of anything that men said, including literal sex assault

[@i_love_musique333]

​@@archivaltendenciesThey're so "lightyears ahead" they just casually dismissed anything that men said, including literal sexual assault Typical progressive😍

[@ffreshfields5211]

@@i_love_musique333 I did not hear them speaking against or unsupportively towards sexual assault experienced by men. Where?

[@mermaidia]

Same goes for femininity and ' Be a Women' in today's world. We are in the times that genders defined at birth are no longer matched with the expected identity of any individual. So, the better discussion would be 'Be a Human'.

[@drilltimebyperryb3310]

To the dude spending $150 when you don’t have it … that’s your damn fault 😂

[@tayabone8633]

Yes, he doesn't seem to have a sense of identity, to be honest

[@angela-donna3332]

Yes wth

[@EnidWellness]

Right! I was so confused by his complaining 🎻

[@KadarOfficial-lg2zr]

He gotta get outta be York

[@strictnine5684]

No it isn’t.

[@lotus6314]

I’ve done a few interviews before but I gotta say this interviewer deserves a Grammy. Very well done asking questions but I appreciate when the interviewer doesn’t try to steal the show and actually let’s them talk and put all there insights in before they say anything or move to the next topic. Very well done you got a new sub.

[@Luke-wt5ur]

the guy in the bottom left fully listened to everybody with full open mindedness. even though he may not agree he listened w both ears. that’s what we need in this world. king.

[@sarahs7489]

As a woman, it's amazing to be on the inside of this conversation. It's really heart felt to see what some of these men think about women and family. It makes me smile to hear about their accomplishments as they sifted through the turmoil and fought to be the man they saw themselves as and I'm proud of these guys for doing this. This is the change we need.

[@maeheminger6035]

i feel like whoever figured out the seating arrangement before this event did really well and i think that contributed to how well this conversation flowed. i feel like if some of these people who are across the room from each other might not have felt open to talking if they were sat next to each other. 👏

[@jjoohhhnn]

I appreciate you not naming Griffin and Christian specifically.

[@quelmix9902]

@@jjoohhhnn lol but u did

[@jjoohhhnn]

@@quelmix9902 I'm not that big of a person.

[@evapatsellee]

@@jjoohhhnn LMAO exactly

[@cantagiousca5220]

That's America for you,none of this group have a single man in ,all gay lords

[@mr.f613]

My advice to all of the dating problems these men are experiencing is never go on a date with someone you don’t know. Meet people and have fun in group settings, school, work, sports, hobbies. Get to know someone well before making emotional investments in them. If they know you and still want to dinner with you, you’re golden. Earn their trust long before you ask them to be alone with you.

[@namehere4954]

Yep! Switching how you do something will change results. Buying into a system that gives you the same results over and over is a sign the system is broken. I don't date. The right man will enter my life at the right time. It's not a numbers game. Men respect this when I tell them.

[@someq.]

exactly!! I think meeting people for the purpose of dating will almost never bring love into one's life, meeting new people to meet friends and acquaintances not only is more likely to bring honest love into one's life, but it also means many more long lasting, strong, beautiful connections and relationships will be made than just trying to find someone to date.

[@MsMookalate]

Exactly. This is how people originally dated. Like I’m still confused on how they keep dating wrong.

[@thesaviorvsevilqueen1218]

Omg ! You’re so right ! That’s what my boyfriend did ! We were colleagues and he waited six months for me not to be his colleague anymore to invite me out! We’ve been together for a year and a half now 😊!!

[@hi-je7km]

Also you don’t have to go on an expensive date straight away. You can go on a mid range date like smoothies

[@marckid93]

The black guy in the blue jean jacket is the man I want in my next relationship, the dad I wish I had growing up, and the man I strive to be in life 🙏🏾❤️

[@i_am_b1anca_207]

I felt that protective presence too 🙌🏾

[@elizabethgrant7793]

YES!!!! A protective yet compassionate and understanding person! Literally the embodiment of healthy masculinity

[@Matt-zv4jp]

Did you realize that was Christian walker, Herschel walker’s estranged son? That was hilarious

[@djregina6897]

He's amazing 👏

[@LowSlungBadBitch]

@@Matt-zv4jp yeah

[@Elliepävirallinen]

I was also raised by single mom and what ive learned is that patriarcal social norms, thinking and behaviour can also be taught to children by their mothers. Growing free from abusive father did not allow me to grow freely without internalizing opressive rule of patriarchy. Defact i might even became less willing to reflect on my sexism as meanwhile i was unable to recognize but even to admit it, i was able to use my experience as token to avoid all accountability and just to lie under unearned cloth of feminism. It is easy to claim as feminist but as long we lack submitting our personal work to it, we are just lying to ourselves. So, unfortunately among men also women have a role in embracing and teaching these patterns to our children. Lastly, i wish also those men who feel unsafe when going out to feel protected with their partners.

[@MichaelCruz0311]

As a man, it makes me so happy to see that we all as males have the ability to come together and have a decent and honest conversation about subjects.

[@banewillrise6818]

Of course Vice could not find 1 masculine man to show up to this clown show. Masculine men don't sit around like a bunch of women discussing masculinity.

[@quack123]

Unlike Women.

[@badjoj015]

men can be 100% with other men but we can not be honest with women because we as men know how it would make the woman react and feel for telling them the truth

[@sotetsotetsotetsotetsotet2379]

you can big men up without putting women down you cretins

[@raycigar6356]

So just like grown ups should be normally....

[@Naculd1]

To be honest, I was expecting a mess. But this video is really good and actually discussed masculinity and it's problems. A really respectful and thoughtful cast of guys.

[@nubeZamurai-mh9pq]

On the other hand the women section was a mess

[@danielecorbari7033]

I think this one was the nicest, most respectful and nice discussion Vice has had. The panelist disagreed on some issues but they were able to never attack each other and say what they think in a very respectful and toughtful way towards one another. And some nice points were made. Nicely done Vice

[@tholos2758]

It’s almost like this was a group of men having an argument and the other one was a group of women XD

[@Saskfinest1]

@@tholos2758 when men have a a argument, there's always a understanding that saying the wrong thing could lead to physical confrontation. It generally leads to much calmer discourse.

[@pyrom3744]

Absolutely. I've never seen a more civilized conversation on vice. Lol

[@derekrobertson60388]

I look at a male lion and tiger as an excellent way to present masculinity

[@andrewmarkland4231]

Men are quite reasonable people you know

[@IamTheWayIam]

As a woman watching this, I left feeling very hopeful for the future. I might not agree with a lot that was said, but the willingness to be open, to be questioned, to have a conversation and to grow were visible and beautiful. Guys, you got this. I see you. There's so many great men out there, and so many great women. Surround yourself with them, and continue on this impressive path. Things will work out - it might not be easy, and there will definitely be struggles, but at the other side of this we'll all be better people.

[@DSN262]

You need good men to protect you from the bad one's

[@taylorandrod]

The gentleman in the white shirt and baby blue shirt on the left made me wish I had a father role like him in my life. My dad speaks barely with me about values and uses humor to talk down on things that are important to me. My religion, my relationship with my girlfriend, getting a job and facing difficulties. This gentleman seems so calm but yet so serious and serene. I wish I had someone like him in my life being a young adult man. - Rodrigo.

[@hasensaurus]

he sounds good, but his facts are superficial and way wrong. he's basically saying what you hear from feminists who didn't do any research, just read 3-4 books on female empowerment in their lives.

[@appointedvillainy]

You should hear his rhetoric on his podcast. He’s putting on a front here being in his “best behavior.” He is a misogynist.

[@Kannakks]

​@@appointedvillainysame

[@karinannamaria2514]

Yeah he is wise man

[@Okaybutseriouslywhy]

​@@appointedvillainywhat is his podcast

[@hendrsb33]

The "not having a father at home" topic really hit home to me. That was my reality. In middle school, I had a friend who was in a Boy Scout troop and told me about all the fun things he did in scouting. I joined and stayed for 8 years, largely because I was able to do activities and learn things that my mother, as a hard-working single parent, hadn't the time or energy to do with me. I realized years later that my scoutmaster and other male volunteers served as necessary father figures in these scouting activities. I wasn't there for the merit badges; I was there for the character-building experiences and positive male influences. As far as the video, it was great... though I wonder how much of the conversation ended up on the cutting room floor. Addendum: there are SO many influences over a person's identity: parental, familial, friends, social circles, gender, media, religious, generational, historical, etc. It's no wonder so many of us are confused about who to be because we are compared to or compare ourselves with so many outside sources.

[@MikeCammack1]

This was the most mature and I think respectful one of these videos I’ve seen. That being said I would love to see this whole series offered as unedited versions

[@dropssergian]

True, I think we all noticed that. Another thing I noticed was the fact that on the other panel with women, discussing about feminism and femininity, there was a lot of hate and insults, head nodding and eyes rolling, complaining about plenty of things and blaming anything but themselves, and mostly the incapability to have a respectful conversation, showing respect to other people’s experiences and points of views. Apart of that, the comment section was turned off for that one, so I can see why they decided to do that. It’s obvious to me from what I learned in these two conversations, that most women can’t control their emotions and they have a hard time dealing with tough situations. I’m not saying this in a hateful way, I love women and I respect them, so I’m just sharing my opinion.

[@nicksshitbro]

The only issue with that, is that they keep these guys in a room all day long and only snip the best parts. So you'd be watching each one for like 6-8 hours maybe lol

[@Maxwell-mb7xn]

@@dropssergian Exactly. Women and men are equipped with different tools and lenses to navigate the world. Men with the physical and logic, women with the emotional and manipulation. Both with the potential for good or ill.