I Hate "Post-Punk".

and genre descriptors in general.

[@omer-sela-rothenberg]

The term "post" doesn't just mean that it came after it chronologically, it also means that it functions as a reaction to punk. In a nutshell, post-punk takes the ideas and ideologies that drive punk music into being made, and says, "I see what you're saying there, but what if we frame it this way?" therefore it doesn't have to be a genre that is sonically unified, it just has to carry that image of discussion with punk music.

[@Zaburino]

EXACTLY

[@brunowilliam6140]

the most accurate take in this comment section

[@OutLawStargazer899]

this. so much this.

[@jackboes509]

couldn't have said it better myself.

[@Enshadowed]

thank you.

[@classCexplosive]

One of the best descriptions I heard was if punk is "f--k you", then post punk is "we are f--ked."

[@joelerikson4556]

lmao

[@patriciokrateil3147]

Simon Reynols

[@MusicFan4848]

lol that is the best description I've ever heard!

[@Nersius]

Rage versus melancholy, the Punk Goth divide 💔

[@CassandraPantaristi]

Love that lol.

[@ek_films]

as a huge Devo fan, "whatever the hell Devo is" perfectly describes their sound

[@hmmmm44]

Synth punk

[@ek_films]

@@hmmmm44 maybe the first album

[@BanakaiGames]

semi-ironic new wave

[@hmmmm44]

@@ek_films ik that's only part of it

[@andrepereira744]

rock music

[@musicforplants1]

I always kinda felt the same way about the “indie” genre, it’s incredibly hard to pin down the aesthetics of indie apart from it just not being an industry product which it actually ended up being in a lot of cases :/

[@CD-tj3hg]

It's not even an actual genre, which is the goofiest part of it all! You may find elements of psychedelic music, shoegaze, electronica or even punk or metal but "indie" just refers to the fact that it's not being distributed by bigger labels and it's made from some kind of bottom-up formation, y'know?

[@abridge2]

i think it definitely depends, but i feel like indie as i understand it refers to the alt rock and grunge inspired bands of the late 90s and early 00s i first heard called indie. modest mouse, white stripes, etc. it doesn't describe the music at all though i give you that.

[@nikguimont8546]

Ya indie is a weird one because I feel like the most indie thing you can do as a band is not call yourself an indie band and call yourself something like anti folk or tender punk or something like that I guess it’s like emo in a way ware no emo band wants to be called emo

[@ag9652]

Indie is weird because I feel like it describes 2 different types of music depending on where you come from. In the UK where I live if you say indie most people will think of the likes of Arctic monkeys or libertines and the music that came out from that or even a lot of the britpop music of the 90s, whereas in the US indie seems to have a completely different, more underground meaning.

[@MichaelTurner856]

I personally love it's versatility

[@NobodyZSS]

Case in point: Television's wikipedia page, under "genres", lists them as both post-punk and proto-punk

[@kelechi_77]

Brian Eno's "Third Uncle" from 1974 is also proto-punk and post-punk

[@usualdosage7287]

​@@kelechi_77and pere ubu

[@johnmccarthy4134]

Television isn’t even post punk, they’re Art Punk. Their early stuff with Richard Hell was definitely early punk like early Patti Smith. But when Television changed their lineup in 1975 that’s when they became art punk.

[@lucashernandez4345]

@@johnmccarthy4134 Art punk = post-punk

[@johnmccarthy4134]

⁠@@lucashernandez4345 Not really. Art Punk is a lot more experimental and progressive compared to post punk and post punk is more similar to punk when compared to it. A 10 min epic like marquee moon isn’t doesn’t sound like anything the Banshees or Joy Division would’ve made structure wise. Though Tom’s guitar sound in Television was definitely an influence on post punk guitarists, I always thought Television was more in line with the First wave of Punk with Patti Smith (early) and the Ramones but just more experimental..

[@readymade83]

When I hear Post -Punk, I think of Gang of Four, Wire, The Fall, The Pop Group or Magazine. Bands that took the idea of punk then incorporated dub or poly rhythm or spoken word into their music. Post-rock and post -hardcore have similar aesthetics, taking the foundation and adding something else entirely to create a new sound.

[@TheNewWaveSage]

This to me is the correct usage. Post Punk was really a UK term for bands like this. its bizarre to apply to the US when New Wave was actually taking place here!

[@andyisdead]

Post-metal

[@boejudden9011]

The Talking Heads incorporated Dub well before Wire…

[@readymade83]

@@boejudden9011 that may be true but i used dub as an example of a characteristic I look for when discussing post-punk. I didn't say who used it first, that wasn't my point.

[@readymade83]

@@diydylana3151 oh yes, I would say that many of those bands and subgenres have many common threads and over time they evolved their style/sound to make something new.

[@joesmith8725]

Post punk is what the modern day kids call it these days. We (GenXers, kids back in the '80s) called it new wave, punk or alternative back then. Which came out of punk. Learn the history, dude. Whats the point of this video?

[@PritchDringle]

You hate the name yet it clearly helped you identify a collection of bands. And sounds. So I say it works.

[@cheeseofglass]

maybe but i could also tell you that i categorize blue, red, and mauve as "huhikwaqa colors" and henceforth you could say those colors are huhikwaqa

[@bobbirdsong6825]

@@cheeseofglass that would be very useful if we needed to refer to blue, red, and mauve frequently

[@nes1739]

totally agree

[@wolfcriedback]

@@cheeseofglass we already do something quite similar, they're called "primary" colours. Hope this helped

[@joaquinlopeztorres1071]

genre names don't always have to be 100% accurate, they are sometimes quite arbitrary and inaccurate, but they still serve their purpose of labelling things. And when it comes to post-punk, I think the name instantly brings certain bands and sounds to mind..

[@spinglasshydra]

I've written entire articles about this, as a member of the music industry. You're correct about the "Post-Punk" term, but it's difficult to change the publics mind, when more accurately it should be "Punk-Post". I could give a proper reasoning, but nobody wants to read an 800 word article. When the 4AD Label became a leader with alternative choices in music, the big industry label's stuck them with "Inde" to represent "Independent Music", which was suppose to degrade the music it produced. If it wasn't for 4AD, we would have never got the; Cocteau Twins, Xmal Deutschland, Bauhaus, Dead Can Dance, Pixies, Colorbox, etc plus countless others. It's similar to when real-estate agents wanted to sound intellectual and describe 1950's track homes as "Mid-Century Modern" when, if fact, "track homes" are simply track homes ― If we're discussing Modernism ― Then we are talking about something completely different.

[@Syfoll]

In my opinion, the best way to categorize bands and albums is in the way wikipedia does it, with multiple genre listings, especially in the case of umbrella terms that aren't very useful, such as post-punk. Also, someone mentioned in the comments, a better umrella term for all these bands would be is 'art punk'. But let's say, we take Siouxsie and the Bashees as an example. You could very easily list them as art punk/gothic rock and it would describe their sound very effectively.

[@Post_the_most]

I don't think Art Punk would describe Siouxsie and the Banshees though, especially when you know that Crass were Art-Punk (and partial Post-Punk)

[@yy-hj4br]

Yeah! This always bothered me. I do think there is a relationship between the word "post" and what the genre fundamentally is, but trying to define it is difficult. Part of that difficulty is just how you define punk as well. For example, i don't think Television is Post Punk, but Punk. There is a blurry line of experimentalism that separates the two genres that is older than the terms themselves. A lot of proto punk bands would for sure fall under the post punk label of it existed then. Personally i see it all as part of the same reformation of rock that started with the Velvet Underground and similar bands, even if it split off into very different sounds. There is a similar ethos at the core of punk and post punk of rejecting tradition and conformity.

[@boejudden9011]

I’ve always sorted my music by genre and these are the things that have kept me up at night for the last 20 years. Where to put VU, where to put Sonic Youth, where to put Suicide…

[@upthewolfs2347]

@Boe Judden art rock, alt rock, and synth punk respectively (at least imo) Art rock because it's rock pushed to its limits, but not by combining classical/jazz like prog does. Alt rock because its sound is more varied than just pure "rock", but it still follows many of the same tropes Synth punk, because it's punk using synths. That's at least what I've gathered in my time listening.

[@johnmccarthy4134]

@yy-hj4br Just out of curiosity, why would you consider television as Post Punk and not Punk? Is it due to the era? Or cause it sounds more punk then post punk?

[@CartesianNullification]

Lmao the way he said ‘bollocks’ 😂

[@andypitchless]

Innit.

[@chaddeez8446]

Kid is still wet behind the ears.... prolly just started listening to punk and now he's an expert.🥴

[@ExpTube1969]

Bullecks.... xD

[@juicessauce]

*Bollix

[@simonandsimbagaming]

Pretty ironic considering bullocks (at least in the UK) are defined by their lack of bollocks.

[@TigerKoehn]

Most Post Punk turned into Gothic Rock. Then branched out. Most bands at the time of the late 70’s and early 80’s didn’t really have a genre name . We use to call it Dark Wave . Then there was new wave , Art Rock like the Heads in the early 80’s -Bands like Joy Division which came from Punk when they were a band called Warsaw in 76-77. Siouxsee. The Cure, Bauhaus , Tones on Tail, Red Lorry-Yellow Lorry . Virgin Prunes, -British bands. Christian Death all led to bands in NYC like The New Creatures. Empire Hideous. Sunshine Blind Loretta’s Doll. Not to mention all the German Bands and English . Sisters of Mercy coined the Goth vernacular in 87 and from then onward it was and is called Gothic Rock

[@JaceDanielFilms]

Honestly it’s New Wave music.

[@richardvandervoort]

40 years ago we called it "New Wave"

[@markanderson3870]

Post-punk is a great name. End of.

[@DrumJunkie-pk8oo176]

I read somewhere in an article where U2 was considered “punk rock”. I thought they were joking 😂. But no, they said they were “punk” but in reality they were post punk in the early years. But at least they did it right.

[@JerekBilbar]

I’ve felt this for a while, but still think the label has some meaning.

[@SADDEATHOFFICIAL]

Let's just call it aesthetic punk 😅

[@phil.7064]

It should be called punk with darker sunglasses

[@RahduDrahkqul75]

It just seems like in England they were going through fads so fast it's like everyday there was something new and the labels changed with each fashion. And the media both in the UK and state side putting their twist by either criticizing or finding What was appealing and fashionable to further exploit it. First there was Glam, then Punk, then New Romantic, then Goth and New Wave. Goth and New Wave were labels that had a hard time sticking and finding their place as some bands seemed to fall into the category but didn't want to be labeled.

[@adamfindlay7091]

Little Richard, Jerry Lewis, Buddy Holly and Patsy Cline is the first punk, beat out the Ramones by 19 years, kids.

[@stevenpivornik9982]

Back then before Television performed at CBGB, they classified their music as "new music" because no one has ever heard of the "punk" sound that was about to be exposed.

[@danielking1795]

Post-punk means we couldn't play, now can play & "we're really cool".

[@Lanooski]

i've always thought post-punk is just a way of saying "prog-punk" without having to say it then immediately explode.

[@serenacastro6094]

Post Punk is a punk subgenre, the "Post" doesn't mean posteriority it means positive. It's actually called positive punk, it was cut short to "post"

[@kaitlyngault3987]

"... To whatever the hell Devo is"!!!!! Yes!!!! I love the Talking Heads more, but that descriptor is the BEST! 😂 "ARE WE NOT MEN? WE ARE DEVO"!!!!!

[@cosmikronic9353]

If the goal is to rename the entire umbrella currently labelled post-punk, I would offer calling it something like, "First Wave Alternative," or even, "Proto-Alt." This would of course only refer to the time period, as there are bands who still identify or are described by critics as post-punk today.

[@TheNewWaveSage]

New Wave forever!

[@DaKoolAidGuy101]

Alternative music was being made in the 50s. Not the alternative music you know today, but it was alternative music according to the time.

[@kendalvahle]

How can a song be clearly post punk if post punk doesn’t have a defined style 💀 u just contradicted urself

[@tutubism]

Personally, i think the variety of contrasting sounds, moods & influences is the reason why i love "Post-punk" music. Bands or musicians that are open to other production/sound techniques, new or old technology, old & newer styles/genres of music & collaborating with other people (with or without musical background) to keep their sounds interesting & fresh is my very own definition of the word "punk" Another favorite controversial genre name "Intelligent Dance Music" (IDM for short) also follows a similar avant-garde & DIY approach to music but is more in the realm of dance/electronic music as opposed to rock or pop music.

[@applerabbits]

at the time of post punk, I'd never heard of post punk. I didn't even realise that we'd stopped being in one place and were somewhere else.The place was heaving with Punks until about 1987.

[@IvanVz.]

Coldwave

[@Redacted_Dude]

Don't care, post punk W

[@mcpauldjrickmusicmaker4504]

New wave

[@Tomas10387]

I would put it “Wave Punk”

[@Leonardo-d8v]

Post punk is punk with more skilled musicians from 1977 to 1983

[@johnathanclark79]

“Progressive Rock” for bar bands

[@snappybro1251]

I hate the term "grunge" alot more

[@tommynelson1616]

Punk is punk. So just call it punk. Simple.

[@RSBurgener]

I think the contemporary name for it was "new wave", but that got absorbed by early 80s synth music. It's very hard to confine these bands into one genre. I know of several heavy metal postpunk bands. I see it as a genre under great pressure, politically and economically. But I have no idea what to call it. I will ruminate on it.

[@comfy_21771]

Punk is about being angry, post punk is what you feel after the anger is gone

[@guitarjunkie]

It’s always been called New Wave…not post punk!

[@theunwantedcritic]

I don’t think I ever heard the term postpunk 40 years ago. The term I heard was new wave. But you do have a point because for some reason they call Patty Smith, the godmother of punk and I don’t think she had anything to do with punk.

[@screwtapee]

This has to be the angriest Polyphonic video

[@dalethedippa5822]

'Whatever the hell Devo isss?!' It's post-punk mate

[@DanBurnette]

Post-Punk makes sense when looked at as an umbrella for music that was influenced by the punk movement but expanded out from its limitations

[@Elriuhilu]

That's how I've always taken it. Post meaning "following," or "as a result of," instead of simply "after." Like in post traumatic stress, or post partum.

[@patriciokrateil3147]

so many languages ​​and you preferred to speak based

[@reliefthroughtheinternet542]

THANK YOU​@@patriciokrateil3147

[@euinc.cantrell5791]

Thats......very accurate to me. This is the only explanation that makes any sense

[@CassandraPantaristi]

When I think of post-punk, I think of Southern Death Cult/Death Cult before they were simply The Cult.

[@Healibord]

Never tell bro about Post-Rock and Post-Hardcore

[@camdencantwell846]

fugazi and asking Alexandria being lumped together sure is something

[@XAVR_]

Post-Metal, too

[@jeansapplebottom9291]

At least Post-Rock 1. Came after Rock and 2. Describes a branch of Rock. Neither of those are true for Post-Punk, unless you REALLY stretch #2

[@znicoshi]

post rock is great

[@fleetwoodcraic4235]

I mean, post hardcore does have another name used alongside it, but most people shun it

[@druid_bielanski]

Joy division is a great example what post punk represents. Even before when joy division was called "Warsaw" you could see thay transformation from straight up punk into experimental slower punk with deeper meaning, but still the same core instruments

[@tucobakunin8250]

Joy Division are a punk as the Birthday Party. That is to say, punk as fuck.

[@La_domniz]

That’s where the name for post punk probably came from

[@gpeddino]

Calling Talking Heads post-punk is as bizarre as calling Radiohead post-grunge.

[@nobodyburgen4594]

Pablo Honey is Post-Grunge…

[@weebunny]

Well, it's been done - Tim Coffman apparently called Pablo Honey post-grunge in Alternative Press Magazine a couple of years ago. (Or maybe you already knew it'd been done and were bemoaning the fact.) I mean, it came out in 1993, while Cobain was still alive & kicking. "Post" nothing. Grr.

[@nobodyburgen4594]

@@weebunny I know people that consider Nevermind a Post-Grunge album.

[@watr19]

They were post punk tho….

[@JamosHeat]

I personally disagree. as the video says you cant really describe what post punk is, so its not really bizarre at all. Calling radio head post grunge is weird tho i guess. what music fits what genre is actually subjective

[@isaacgraham5727]

Describing Talking Heads as “sardonic Afro beats” is so contemptuous, lazy, inaccurate, and downright wrong that by necessity I had to disregard everything else you said.

[@sarahhopper8891]

I’d definitely call it reductive. They ARE sardonic and HAVE used Afro-beats but I’m not sure it’s fair to label them AS that. Still I think the guy makes a couple of good points. But so did the person who said that post punk was as much a reaction to punk by bands influenced BY it as it was a descriptor of bands that came AFTER punk.

[@madddmooney]

true!!! they’ve just delved into so many things, inspired by so many people, it’s hard to lump them into one genre. i see people calling them new wave mostly, because of their use of electronic instruments (after the first two albums)

[@mrnobody3276]

I'm not smart enough to join in this conversation but I'm still happy to be here.

[@namenick9057]

​@mrnobody3276 hell yeah dude

[@fresagrus4490]

Almost every comment made in this video is out of bad faith and laziness. If the guy had a point, he failed to convey it.

[@BraydonMcCallum]

Bro absolutely loathes “Post Malone” 😂

[@escabasket153]

He’s probably like, where’s the original Malone??

[@paulgomusic]

All I know is that, when it's called "post-punk" I almost always love it!!!

[@apl2606]

Same.

[@Morn__]

Same! It’s one of my favourite genre and I still don’t understand what the hell is it

[@luckyhippy4898]

Sad lovers and giants have this really cool song called "lost in the moment" or something like that and "tightrope" 🤘🔥🔥

[@Blackbutterflyt888]

same.

[@laurenw6742]

this

[@chaseharley1215]

The term "post" being strictly temporal is the funniest take I've heard today.

[@chrysflowers8805]

i think he meant temporal in the literal sense, being that post- anything means after. but youre totally right. i think post- music is just experimental

[@JohnSmith-wq5oi]

It's temporal by definition

[@mikegim9954]

can you elaborate on this? "post" means "after" according to the definition

[@plant_12]

​@@mikegim9954something can be after another thing while the other thing still exists. Sure, post punk started while punk was still a recent phenomena but post punk still takes after it.

[@youtubesucks3882]

@@mikegim9954 It does mean "after" chronologically, but in music genres, "post" means that it's derived from. It's another take of the genre, yet it's distinctive enough to be in its own category. You can't say that Mogwai is rock just because the genre they play is post-rock. They don't sound rock at all, but the genre is derived from rock.

[@deformschool]

I feel like new wave is the catch all and post punk is the gothy stuff.

[@logrun9]

Back in the day, those bands were all referred to as "new wave", as I recall. I never heard the term "post-punk" well into the 90's or later even.

[@LLS710]

I think it's a different genre but I still call the old new wave, new wave. To me I sense it is something different musically but I can't put my finger on it.

[@joaquinlezcano2372]

​@@LLS710I can help you, what do you exactly call new wave?

[@kfdyy]

Post-Punk is just Punk but they actually know how to play their instruments

[@JeanMarceaux]

Sometimes

[@Alexis-im4xu]

Not really, both Punk and Post-Punk are incredibly broad. Quite a few straight Punk Rock bands started out sloppier than they ended out different, just listen to The Damned's debut and compare it to Machine Gun Etiquette, you can hear the progression there. Even the Ramones slowed down their machine gun steadiness to make room for a couple Hard Rock solos on Road to Ruin. I'd also say Buzzcocks were quite a bit more unique and melodic, even if they weren't "shreddy". Sure they weren't quite on the level of say a Ton Verlaine or D Boon or Robert Quine but they definitely were more musically inclined than the Sex Pistols were at least. And I don't think you have to be a master of the Blues and Jazz Fusion in order to "know how to play your instrument" And not all Post-Punk was like that. Some embraced the "sloppiness" (for lack of a better term) of Punk, Devo sure as hell could never muster up an album like Marquee Moon or Blank Generation no matter how hard they tried to. And bands like Wire opted to take a much more minimalist direction to Post-Punk. Plus the mainstream image of Punk is only really reflective of the 70s British Explosion. If you were to abide by saying "Punks can't play guitar" then you'd also be referring to bands like Strung Out, Lagwagon, Propagandhi, A Wilhelm Scream, Belvedere etc. who were all a lot more sympathetic to Iron Maiden and Megadeth riffs than many of their "contemporaries". You'd also be referring stuff like the Washington DC/Revolution Summer scene where Hardcore Punk bands slowed down in order to give more melodic substance (Embrace, Rites of Spring/One Last Wish, Beefeater, Dag Nasty, Shudder To Think etc.) as well as the subsequent bands that they influenced (Alkaline Trio, Hot Water Music, Leatherface, Turning Point, Planes Mistaken For Stars). You could also bring up some straight Hardcore Punk bands like Zero Boys or Adolescents S/T album who certainly weren't afraid of lead guitar and solos in the way that the Sex Pistols were. Hell we even got a guy like Olga from the Toy Dolls who transcribed Bach's Toccata in D Minor despite the Toy Dolls being a goofy comedic Pop Punk band, literal actual Neoclassical Pop Punk (it's why it's fun to show live performances of that one to Metalheads). And of course a lot more than that. Punk, just like Metal, and a lot of other genres have had a massive and long evolution that you couldn't really just distill by going all "Post-Punk is just if Punks knew how to play their instruments".

[@panamajack5972]

You mean thrash metal? lol

[@Godloveszaza]

Funny how post punk is nowhere near better than punk. Debunks that complexity mentality most rock fans have.

[@ergoth154]

​@@panamajack5972 Thrash Metal is just 80s hardcore, that can play their intruments

[@gwgwgwgwgwgwgwgwgw]

Post-punk is a broad term, just as punk is, it wasn't meant to be super specific. It just refers to bands that took elements of punk (stripped back instrumentation, DIY aesthetic, anti-establishment, etc) while going beyond the confines of punk, combining other influences. It's music that undoubtedly shares the ethos of punk while not being able to be defined as "punk rock."

[@fuckamericanidiot]

It suits me fine, a little pretentious but still my favourite genre. It bleeds into electro pop, dance, dub, new romantics, all good gravy.

[@emrekulac3207]

It called post punk because it comes from punk but had different aesthetic aims

[@AnthonyArena-g7l]

Pere Ubu, who also began at exactly the same time as punk rock, are usually identified as "post-punk" yet they started at exactly the same time as the punk rock bands. The Residents, Half Japanese, Chrome, Cabaret Voltaire pre-date punk and other bands like Wire, The Fall, and The Wipers also started around the same time. Plus, bands like The Stranglers, with thier synths and keyboards and adventurous bass, and X-Ray Spex with thier saxophone, are always called "punk" and not post-punk. Even the Sex Pistols song Submission sounds more post-punk than punk, doesn't it? The idea of "post-punk" wasn't really meant to signify "after" punk or "later than" punk, as much as it was intended to mean "beyond" punk, or "more advanced than" punk rock, to explain that bands like Killing Joke, The Tubeway Army, and Mission of Burma have more advanced influences than the direct and straightforward approach of early punk bands like The Ramones,The Damned, The Dictators, The Heartbreakers, and The Saints. Still, when you go really to the beginning, you are correct, in that Television, Patti Smith Group, and Suicide were right there at the beginning of the Max's CBGB and Mercer Arts Center scene that happened with Ramones, Dead Boys, Richard Hell & The Voidoids, Wayne County, etc. So, some people now prefer the term Art-Punk to describe the more poetic and artistic approach of the genre, when it is a bit more advanced than basic punk.

[@experi-mentalproductions5358]

Post-Punk is the darker version of New Wave. EDIT: Reply to some of the replies: I'm speaking in terms that were used in the 70's. No-Wave, Dark-Wave, Goth-Wave and others are more modern subcategories.

[@theothertonydutch]

Punkwave

[@mattjackson9859]

Noir wave?

[@growskull]

new wave is post punk

[@corncake4677]

No wave is the darkest version of both

[@garanbevan2221]

Are Killing Joke post punk?

[@jdinman84]

IDK if you think of it as a mix between Post Modernism and Punk it fits pretty well

[@mysteryloaf]

Clever!

[@ghosteye131]

Isnt Punk already post modernist though?

[@stephenoxf]

@@ghosteye131 then post-punk is post-postmodernist

[@gwgwgwgwgwgwgwgwgw]

How the hell does post-punk use elements of post modernism?

[@beplanking]

​@@ghosteye131Definitely. Against the interest systems of the past and for nothing. Answering valid problems with meaningless noise and no solutions

[@mellow-mike]

Never mind the bullocks? 😆 Sandra won't be best pleased

[@unitedmad9580]

His pronunciation of it is crazy

[@cthulhu8164]

​@@unitedmad9580 boolokes

[@nectarinedreams7208]

@@unitedmad9580 His pronunciation of everything he fucking says is crazy

[@DMgrue1996]

The name is more of a description of music in the context of the time and place the term originated from. Post punk was used to describe the music that was being made by the punk scene of England after they moved on from punk. Which is why you have bands that are post-punk coming out seemingly right next to famous punk releases. These bands all existed in the same scenes and included a lot of the same musicians and core music values. So to put a complicated topic simply, it's post-punk because it's the music that the British punk scene were making after punk

[@stephenoxf]

The "post" prefix in art and music isn't really to do with time. It just takes some of the tropes of that genre and comments on them. That's what it means - a shame that you made a fantastic short with great info and graphics about a misunderstanding.

[@DaKoolAidGuy101]

Thank you. I was looking for this comment. People in this thread dont realize they are arguing semantics, and not music 😂 The guy in the video literally said that Post-Punk is a broad sounding genre. THATS WHY THERE ARE SUBGENRES

[@alleygh0st]

reaction to a thing can only happen after said thing

[@TheNewWaveSage]

The answer to the question you asked as to, "what to call these bands?" is obvious. They were NEW WAVE. Two of the three bands you mention (Talking Heads and Devo) self identified as New Wave bands. Heck Seymour Stein was the Talking Heads manager. And was the one who really promoted the Heads using that term. Devo was not only pre punk (they formed in 73) but they did not consider themselves punk. They got in a fistfight with the Deadboys over whether they were punk when they played CBGBs. That's why they used the term New Wave. I love this channel but you literally have never used the phrase "New Wave" in any form, ever on ANY of your videos As careful a music historian as you are, it's just bonkers to ignore this movement. . New Wave was a historical event. It was a super important musical movement with a bunch of bands (Throw in Blondie and B 52s as well) that really changed Modern Pop music. To me it's due for a cultural reevaluation just in the way Disco was reevaluated.

[@PuffinPass]

Nailed it. Back in the 80s you had punk, new wave and then goth. All this post punk is just a modern reimagining of genres to sub classify for no reason.

[@TheNewWaveSage]

@@PuffinPass EXACTLY. I think critics always saw Punk as the more authentic "real" music and they were ecstatic when grunge came back and saw that as a validation that everything was punk. its actually kind of wild the way that whole movement/genre has almost no documentaries, histories etc. It's now this "Post Punk" bullshit.

[@rateeightx]

I would generally class Talking Heads and Devo, Among others, As primarily New Wave, So that's fair, But would you call Joy Division or Siouxsie & The Banshees or Alternative T.V. "New Wave"? I probably wouldn't, Their sound is fairly distinct both from what I primarily think of when I think of New Wave, And with that of most other bands I'd call New Wave as well.

[@TheNewWaveSage]

@@rateeightx The reason Television is mainly called New Wave now is because Hilley Krsytal said they were the start of New Wave. They never used that term. But Blondie, Devo and Talking Heads DID self identify as "New Wave" so my point is that its weird to just ignore what the bands themselves said they were. To me Post Punk is a distinctly English designation. I never heard anyone in America ever use in America to reference these bands because that first UK wave of Punk was radio airplay and club POISON. The main reason bands like the B 52s started saying, "We are New Wave" is because they didn't want to be labelled as Punk. On the other hand bands in UK WERE Post Punk because UK punk hit so much harder over there and bands like Joy Division were directly influenced by the Sex Pistols. So...this is a long of way of saying i think we agreee? LOL

[@DrawtheCurtains]

Blondie wasn't really New Wave though. In fact, I hesitate to pigeonhole them into any one genre - they did punk, they did power pop, they did disco...

[@Stockbolt34]

Shhh guys, don’t tell him about Russian post punk!

[@philippmuller-litz401]

did i just find another Molchat Doma fan? they might not be Russian, but they're damn good

[@lemon_p1ss978]

Well, post punk came from punk and uses punk elements. It’s political and diverse

[@Mattythebassist_]

I always hate it when someone’s like “I know it’s not common in Western Music but in World Music …” As a music student, I bump into other students saying this kinda stuff and part of me thinks “well done, you listened to non Western music and identified a characteristic.” But another part of me is aware this is the bare minimum and they haven’t even specified which culture, region, practice, genre or artist they found this characteristic in which just serves to keep the people listening trapped in a West centric mindset since they can not research this musical feature at all. Bad genre names can also be really bad for researching and exploring and it gets worse when hundreds of genres are grouped purely because they come from other parts of the world, that aren’t Europe or North America.

[@nikguimont8546]

I was in a really shitty Community college class called “ world drumming “ ware I thought we were gonna learn about and play different drums from around the world but it turned out we were just learning to play drums from west Africa and we weren’t even gonna learn to play traditional west African music but some shitty new age classical peace his friend composed

[@98loud]

"west centric mindset"? My brother in Christ, the music industry is west centric

[@theothertonydutch]

Deutsche Schlager can be considered world music and it is basically the west european version of country.

[@Mattythebassist_]

@@theothertonydutch that’s a good point as well. I’ve seen celtic music and many other folk traditions in Northern Europe described as world music along with balkan dance music, like chalga, or more traditional balkan music, like noradna muzika and it just goes to show how narrow and west centric our culture is. We can’t even consider all European music Western and prefer to categorise some of it as “world music”. Not even all west European music is considered Western and some of it is just called world music by Western listeners. I’ve seen some call Flamenco “world sounding” which is so dumb and weird to me.

[@franekkkkk]

Meanwhile me who doesn’t even know how to find good Latino music: YES EXACTLY

[@tinylord335]

I prefer the term ‘Art-Punk’, as punk was an intellectual rejection of the musical norms, rather than just the modern stereotype of loud and fast guitars. I think Art-Punk captures well the same rejection of norms that the Talking Heads or Siouxsie and the Banshees shared with the Sex Pistols and Ramones, while recognising the different direction they took and the more artistic and experimental elements in it.

[@unacuentadeyoutube13]

everything with the word art in it is bullshit

[@jasonremy1627]

So, the Ramones music isn't art?

[@unacuentadeyoutube13]

@@jasonremy1627 that's my point

[@thescarecrowcat]

I heard Siouxsie refer to the Banshees as "art pop" and I always rather liked that.

[@tinylord335]

@@jasonremy1627 Absolutely not, but the Ramones were definitely Punk-Rock with the focus on energy and raw emotion. I get that Art-Rock sounds pretentious, but most of the bands making that kind of music were pretty pretentious like the Talking Heads, who were all art students.

[@DarkShadow-pe6ud]

In case you don't know there's already another name for post-punk, it's called new-wave, but that term is usually used to categorize the more soft and poppy songs of the genre and because of that many people consider it to be a subgenre of post-punk even though many post-punk bands do/have new-wave songs, but anyway, in music "post" doesn't just mean "after", it can also mean experimenting on that style, there's a lot of music genres that include "post" on it, like post-rock, post-hardcore, post-grunge, post-metal, post-progressive and the list goes on...

[@fugginbones]

So you don't hate post-punk, you hate what post-punk is called

[@gabrielhicks8043]

"Post punk is a terrible genre name" is literally the first thing he says, what are you arguing here?

[@fugginbones]

@@gabrielhicks8043 that he doesn't hate the genre, like how the music sounds, but rather what it's called. Pretty sure I said the exact same thing in my original comment lmao.

[@mugrex]

Post-punk is THE BEST genre name. It's not about the type of music, but rather the APPROACH to making it. And seeing it has an "undertow" kind of energy, it couldn't be better suited for a wide array of seemingly unrelated bands and styles. My problem with it is that people think post-punk = punk + tons of reverb.

[@MrFluffyBunnikins]

Start complaining about post-rock, post-hardcore, post malone if you're pickin a fight with post-punk. Additionally, we have no standardization with genre naming. Never have. Never will. So all genre references are in the moment. The here and now. Think about Pop. Pop describes everything from Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra to Lady Gaga and shit like Megan Thee Stallion.

[@Doomed_Traveler]

Don't forget the entire catalogue of western classical music, where the nomenclature is fully based around time periods. Renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, etc.

[@dancegregorydance6933]

Post-Hardcore does have the sane problem. Fugazi, Thursday, Silverstein, Dance Gavin Dance are all considered post-hardcore but do not sound alike at all.

[@untermensch731]

​@@dancegregorydance6933you could always just call silverstein and thursday emo if you really wanted to

[@TrevorDaniel]

i just call it “like the cure genre” then add something “faster” “but more happy” or something whatever explains ____ artist/band

[@tomg204]

Devo is Post-Punk.

[@axl1555]

Well I always thought post-punk refered to bands applying the punk language to more experimental scenarios, the punk drum beats are there, the bass, the simplistic guitar but exploring other moods rather than "I want to break everything and fuck the world up his ass". Fucking love post-punk

[@apl2606]

Agree.

[@Chunkballfairy]

This is exactly what it is. It’s not saying bands that came after punk was dead. it’s bands that moved past fundamental punk.

[@upthewolfs2347]

Bingo! That's how Joy Division, Black Midi, Talking Heads, and (early) The National are all in the same genre. Combining punk elements with different sounds and emotions.

[@finnb-anarchy]

​@@upthewolfs2347 black midi mentioned 😳

[@okayegg2]

@@finnb-anarchy greep marvel cameo

[@m.scottmcgahan9900]

When I was a teenager in the mid-eighties, we considered the bands like Echo & the Bunnymen, Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Smiths, The Cure, Joy Division, The Birthday Party, Bauhaus, Love & Rockets, Tones on Tail, Christian Death, Sisters of Mercy, The Cult, and The Mission all part of the Death Rock/Gothic Rock genre. no one was saying Post-Punk. Devo, B-52s, Talking Heads were New Wave but so were synth-pop acts like OMD, Human League, Howard Jones, and New Order.

[@rapdancesing]

The only ones mentioned here I would consider are joy division, early Cure, and some Devo

[@hundredeyes8917]

@@rapdancesing Birthday Party is core post punk cannon.

[@rapdancesing]

@@hundredeyes8917 thanks for the heads up! Just listened to their first album and loved it

[@goat9629]

@@rapdancesing Bauhaus?

[@rapdancesing]

@@goat9629 yeah they’ve got a bit of everything but I would consider em goth rock b4 post-punk just my opinion

[@lukejones1104]

Always saw it as more a description rather than a genre

[@alleygh0st]

not a very apt one then

[@user-wl2xl5hm7k]

It’s both. And no issues with either.

[@arturobelano138]

Yeah you nailed it. I truly think that caring about genre names is missing the point. Genre names from "blues" to "rock n roll" were invented by record labels to sell music and in the POST- record label world of today, they are more useless than ever. The name "post-punk" doesn't read to me as a misnomer but more like a statement. It's a testament to triumph of creativity that people had to move on from the horrible name of "punk" which was basically derogatory and not something any of them would self-identify as to everything beautiful and experimental that came after (POST) which was all so truly unclassifiable. We should celebrate the name "Post-punk" as a movement.

[@Rinoarashi-P]

more a "scene"

[@monomiska6817]

cringe

[@thekowboyelectrik7714]

It was called new wave back then! It wasn’t called post punk until several years later.

[@DavidAlejandroYT]

I love this term. Let’s talk about “art pop/art rock” and watch the RYM poindexters lose their minds

[@LuDux]

WHOA WHOA WHOA, YOU MEAN OTHER POP AND ROCK IS NOT ART!!!!??????

[@DavidAlejandroYT]

@@LuDux erm no, only radiohead and pop/rock made by people i like is art. also pop im too afraid to admit i like is art pop, it's avant-garde really

[@kelechi_77]

@@DavidAlejandroYT Art pop doesn't mean "this piece of music is art", art pop is the bridge between conventional pop and experimental pop, pop music that isn't completely conventional but also isn't way too experimental that it can't be considered accessible or commercial. Bjork is a good example of this.

[@DavidAlejandroYT]

@@kelechi_77 I can at least understand that definition, but I still don’t personally find it all that useful as a genre label.

[@luisjeremyramossotil5650]

​@@DavidAlejandroYTPablo Honey, The Bends, Karma Police among others aren't art pop/rock

[@granitorosa]

I disagree on some parts. The name does carry an aesthetic with it. It was a bunch of art students and middle class workers, most of them were from the same mix of influences as the punk scene, a lot of them were there at cbgbs or when pistols formed, or at least inspired by the zeitgeist. And punk was a thing with the Stooges, so it's not like they appeared in a vaccum and were an amorphous blob. I do agree it is a generic term and a temporal one, but it's not like they didn't had their aestethic attached to it, even if it is the broad musical approach of those bands of this period of time. It's not like they don't have anything in common. Specially if we listen to the albuns year by year and we can hear the punk influence matured by 78. Even if they appeared basically by the same time (Siouxsie was part of the pistols gang), as time went on the external influences changed as well. The first Siousxie album is a different kind of punk. Same as The Cure. And they went to do "goth pop". I guess the issue is that post-punk feels more like an ethos to me than mere musical similarities. They all shared a similar approach when dealing with punk and other influences, and things evolved as they pursued their tastes as artists. If we had to change the term, the best we can call it is proto-indie, since they all came from local scenes, released albums with local record companies, formed their own labels...

[@themistoklestheodosopoulos6253]

I think what you're overlooking its that it's not intended to relay that the bands in question are derivative of punk. But that they exist in the world "Post Punk". Its definitely a strange wording, but if you consider how impactful punk was you can see how these musical styles being embraced probably wouldn't have happened if punk hadn't disrupted the natural order to the extent it did. The term New Wave is more accurate imo, but that came to be defined in a particular way that isn't as broad as "post punk".

[@raphaelzepeda980]

Should just be called goth

[@regsim7507]

All genres are just pigeon holing.

[@riskyfueI]

It's probably better to just retire the label and use more descriptive genres like New Wave, Gothic Rock, Dream Pop, Art Punk, etc. that more accurately describe the music and are usually included as secondary descriptors to the post-punk bands you mentioned anyways.

[@mj.l]

why pigeonhole music in genres at all?

[@michaelouzts4290]

@@mj.l so you can more easily identify it and recommend it to others

[@Ultamik3y]

Ain't no way you just called New Wave descriptive

[@RakastaaKissa]

@@Ultamik3y New Wave has been descriptive the entire time. Look at French New Wave in cinema, it was an ushering in of entirely new thought to challenge convention. The American music scene called New Wave did the same.

[@dancegregorydance6933]

And New Wave Sci-Fi did for the genre

[@DogThroat]

If you think Ramones started punk in 1975 that is the beginning of your problem.. Ramones definitely popularized punk but they did not create punk

[@gavinsheridan4680]

Post-punk isn’t a genre. It never was. It was meant to describe artists INFLUENCED by punk, across various genres.

[@FantasticExplorers]

👏👏👏

[@StartsWithACee]

exactly

[@Mr.Marbles]

How about drum n bass? It has drums and bass. Cant wait to listen to my favorite genre. Guitar and singer.

[@tjenadonn6158]

Singer-songwriter and spoken word can also meet that criticism. Most artists wrote their own music, meaning by definition most singers are songwriters, and the line between speaking and musical ideas lich sprechstimme, talking blues, and rapping is so blurry as to be nonexistent.

[@frullmusic]

that is not what drum and bass means at all lmao

[@Mr.Marbles]

@@tjenadonn6158 rapping has a rhythm and spoken word not or am i wrong? also most singers do not write their own song, they perform songs written by other people. not that they dont exist, but they are much rarer then just singers.

[@Mr.Marbles]

@@frullmusic i know the genre. it just has a dumb name that sounds like someone mad it up that has nothing to do with music lol

[@riskyfueI]

I prefer Guitar And Singer And Bass And Also Drums And Sometimes Keyboard

[@rd101]

I personally love the name “Post-Punk.” It just feels right. Most of Joy Division’s songs sound like punk, but not quite. So I think post-punk is a good way to describe their music.

[@singlesideman]

You can't give it a name because it covers too many different aesthetics, by your own admission.

[@furkanyigit8119]

That's why the word "goth" exists

[@TheLokiBiz]

There's a ton of post-punk bands that don't sound goth rock-y at all though.... The Pop Group or The Proletariat both come to mind. And then, even the goth rock bands all HATED whenever anyone called them "goth" (Sisters Of Mercy were so pissy about the goth label that they started wearing Hawaiian shirts on stage and shit lol) - Personally i dont care what we call it so long as the music is good, but post-punk seems a useful descriptor for finding bands i'll probably like.

[@3van660]

Now the term goth has been flanderized and only means black clothes, fishnets and doc martens

[@misfit1-3]

@@3van660sad world we live in now

[@dopey473]

Not all post punk is goth. Is LCD Soundsystem goth? What about DFA 1979?

[@Heyyouxo]

No. Post Punk included New Wave and Industrial bands as well.

[@JamosHeat]

i think its a really good thing that you cant pin down the exact sound of the genre. Its why its one of the best genre. Genres mean nothing anyway i personally like to listen to the genre called: Good Music.

[@LuDux]

I have same attitude towards biology, there's only two species: tasty and not tasty

[@andyv2209]

Yeah that's what's punk about it

[@Newton-Reuther]

It also led to other genres picking up the "post-" name, like whatever "post-grunge" is supposed to refer to (a lot of so-called "post-grunge" bands are just grunge that continued after April 1994).

[@tabom385]

post-rock is rock for nerds post-punk is punk for ppl who think theyre cool post-grunge is grunge but corny post-britpop is britpop but sadder post-bop is bebop for the excentric post-industrial is industrial but listenable hope i helped🤟

[@johngerygooz3251]

@@tabom385 So, I'm a nerd who thinks he's cool? I'll give you the first statement, but I don't think I'm cool!

[@LuDux]

@@johngerygooz3251 You're post-cool

[@johngerygooz3251]

@@LuDux Post-cool sounds good, but what's it excactly mean?

[@johngerygooz3251]

@Lucas F Based on what TABOM said: Post-hardcore's hardcore punk for people who think they're cool. Post-metal's metal for nerds. Obviously, it isn't all that true.

[@Kris_P._Bey_Ken]

The post punk label is misused and abused. Could you call PIL post punk? Yes and no, it was Jon lydon's band post sex pistols. What about fugazi? After minor threat. What about suicidal tendencies they were punk and went to a more metal direction. I DONT CARE FOR LABELS EITHER. just an observation.

[@ahnmensch3115]

the most useless genre name, to me, is Krautrock. It can literally be just some random Psych Rock, or weird 20-minute ambient electronic compositions, or completely off-kilter avant garde pieces

[@tjenadonn6158]

Anyone who puts Can, Faust, and Kraftwerk into the same category is absolutely barking.

[@riskyfueI]

Plus, there are a lot of more modern or non-German bands described as Krautrock (Stereolab, Circle, King Gizz, etc.) and usually it just means "sounds like Can". Fails as both a sonic or geographic descriptor.

[@nikguimont8546]

Agreed and it always felt mildly bigoted to me like someone decided to categorize all German music together and give it a silly name to make fun of them it would be like if put all Japanese music together and called it rice rock it feels wrong

[@tjenadonn6158]

@@nikguimont8546 IIRC it was originally coined by the British music press, and there was sort of a general current within the German music scene to find sounds that were distinctly German (i.e. make some sort of rock music that wasn't just Erich Presley or Die Rolling Stones) without being distinctly German in ways traditionally associated with a certain Austrian art school reject. Granted that idea led to a wide variety of musical styles that didn't deserve to be slapped under one label: a similar desire to stake their own musical identity existed in France, Latin America, and other places but we don't talk of Baguette Bop or Taco Rock.

[@alexz4752]

I'm so glad someone else feels the same way. I've come to love Can, but getting into other "krautrock" bands scares me because the genre has one of the most loose definitions I've ever heard. The "4/4 motorik beat" *maybe* started in krautrock, but it's extremely common all over rock now. "Avant-garde composition" can be anything from The Velvet Underground's Heroin to Pharaoh Sanders's The Creator Has a Master Plan to Swans' The Glowing Man. Plus, isn't "kraut" literally a slur for German people?

[@boejudden9011]

Some people define genre by musical and aesthetic style, others define it the same way artistic movements are defined, by the arc of creative evolution. I think that’s why there’s always disagreement.

[@omarkharnivall2439]

Idk for me post punk means rock sang with low voice from the 80s, melancholic lyrics, many times with a splash of electronic instruments: - Joy Division UK - Kino Rus - Legião Urbana BR

[@kedsarama]

To make things even stranger, Television and The Ramones started at the same exact club in New York and Television played there first